vaibhavpisal
Member
Funny to see GAF going ball deep in sales discussions (totally worthless to gamers), then crying about some of the outcomes.
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UK Monthly Charts December 2023: PS5 #1, Switch #2 and Xbox Series #3
- Thread starter jm89
- Start date
Mr Moose
Member
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twilo99
Member
Isn’t Microsoft selling millions of their Xbox consoles to consumers?
Microsoft doesn’t make hardware that they sell to others in a particular industry, they sell software. I gave you the example so you can grasp it conceptually, not literally.
I guess you could say that they rent hardware to other companies via Azure..
Why are you thinking of Xbox as its own entity?
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Killjoy-NL
Banned
Sales are so pointless to gamers, that we hear rumors of MS possibly bringing Xbox 1st party to competing platforms, like Playstation.
GHG
Member
Yes, but whether or not they are selling enough to justify doing so and enrich their related endeavours isn't up to me.
We are talking about the Xbox division here, as it stands that division predominantly only sell consumer facing software on to products that they themselves own/control.
You specifically referenced Sony's mobile division in the same way, without connecting the dots as to why it continues to exist despite having such poor market share.
Since you've brought this up you've failed to give me a parallel that exists as far as xbox hardware is concerned. But that's what happens when you make false equivalences.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Needs to be seen how they approach it.
Low console sales were already predicted by Phil. Doesn’t seem to be an issue to them.
Killjoy-NL
Banned
Maybe, but low sales can change the direction MS is going to take. Which affects the end-user.
Installbase has a lot of effect on platforms games may or may not release.
Even more so if sales become so bad, a platform-holder has to pull out (like Sega did).
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
I swear, that statement, and that kinda talk... is the most deluded kinda reasoning I see amongst those that speak in defence of Xbox.
That they are doing fine, that everything is ok, that its not an issue, that if something was wrong we would know.
Are you guys living under a rock is this literal proof that copium exists?
- so if I tell you, I am going to fail an exam, then it's fine when I fail it?
- its not an issue for them yet they do not announce any kinda hardware sales data
- they are trying to bring their games to other platforms
- they are fire-selling their three-year-old hardware at a time when their primary rival is increasing its price, and still coming in thrid
- they are spending more money on acquisitions in one year than they have made in their division's profits for over 20 years.
And you think they really think they don't have an "issue"... I hope for their sake they aren't thinking like you.
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digoutyoursoul
Member
It’s too easy for Sony. That’s not to belittle their efforts of course.
Ar¢tos
Member
When 3rd parties start skipping their consoles because of low install base (and being forced to make XSS and XSX versions), like already happened with Octopath Traveler 2 and FF7 part 1, he should consider it an issue.
Woopah
Member
We'll get the 2023 top 20 with numbers, Hogwarts should be number 1.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Okay so this might be one of the benefits of switching to MoM? To make it easier to track the sales figures given there were specific numbers given for a particular month prior? I guess on that note it makes some sense.
NeonDelta
Member
they should have spent money getting GTA VI and COD as exclusive
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Not sure if there is any amount of money that could have made either happen.
Exclusivity to a minor system can be franchise suicide.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
So….not Starfield?
You knew what you were doing when you cropped out the ‘…at a steady cadence’ part to change the context completely, eh?
James Sawyer Ford
Member
How much of a steady cadence are they missing currently? This was their biggest year yet and they still had their console sales tank
We aren’t getting another Starfield sized release anytime soon
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
MS could never afford GTA VI as exclusive b/c Take-Two aren't going to prioritize the console with a shrinking B2P sales market for arguably the biggest single B2P game of the entire generation. That's like taking an iron club and battering both feet, Misery-style, just for fun.
As for COD, well I assume the exact same thing would've played out if the attempt were made, hence why MS went to buy the entire publisher. Even there, they were forced to make many concessions including keeping the game multiplat for another 11 years.
If Starfield (and I'd argue, RedFall & Forza) lived up to expectations, or even came within some striking distance of them, there would've been a much bigger boost in Xbox hardware sales last year. Not massively larger; after all, these games are Day 1 on PC as well, which will always cap hardware sales ceiling for the console.
But they certainly would've done much better than 6% growth MoM for December (while still being down YoY). And yeah, there's nothing as big as Starfield coming 1P-wise that's exclusive to platform, for a good few years, at least until TES VI. The best they can do this year is get aggressive with free weapon & cosmetic skins/currency/EXP bonuses for COD & other games for Game Pass subscribers, particularly on console (or GP Ultimate).
That might stabilize any further drops in hardware sales for this year so as to prevent even further drops in the 2nd half. Will it lead to big boosts in hardware sales? Who knows. Probably not, but there could be a bump in H2 sales here and there as those perks coincide with the next COD, for example (plus marketing rights).
Anyway I'm kinda more interested in what Sony can do to continue or expand their lead this year. They've got a pretty good Q1 with FF VII Rebirth, Tekken 8 marketing, Grandblue, and Rise of the Ronin, plus Helldivers 2 for a bit of variety. But after that the release schedule at least AFAIK is a complete unknown in terms of semi-solid dates. We just know games like Stellar Blade and Concord are indeed coming this year but that could be anytime between April and December.
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Redfall was a miss, and Forza disappointed critically and didn’t resonate with players.
That’s certainly not a ‘cadence of really good games’, unless you’re saying you’ve been trolling here for months.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
How would you rate flop being that there have only been 2 full months worth of software sales gathered?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Worthless? Do you understand business or nah?
Mr Hyde
Member
This documentary, which chronicles Xbox history, says Microsoft entered the console business because they were afraid of Sony taking over the living room with PS2. People that worked on the OG Xbox, even MS upper management , are saying that Playstation is the main reason why Xbox exists.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
You think Xbox's hardware sales problems would clear up if they had a better cadence of big 1P AAA games?
IMO at this point the problem runs much deeper than that. Day 1 PC cannibalizing value proposition of the console. Multiple years of lackluster big 1P industry-leading, mega-mainstream releases (getting licenses for stuff like Blade are a decent step in fixing that, but said game is many years off and will likely be multiplat anyway)*. Too many fingers in too many pies that are in conflict with each other in some ways (Xbox consoles, PC Day 1, Game Pass xCloud streaming on various devices as key examples).
*And I do NOT mean quality-wise here. I've always said MS has some good games, very good games in some cases. Like Flight Sim, Forza Horizon, the Ori games etc. But that clearly doesn't mean those games are also mega-mainstream or in some cases even industry-leading. SEGA had tons of great games during Saturn era too like Shining Force 3, Panzer Dragoon series, VF2 etc. but for various reasons none of them had the mainstream selling power/"magic" of games like FF VII, Resident Evil, Tekken, etc. on PS1 or Super Mario 64 and Smash Bros. on N64.
That and things like conditioning more console owners to spend less in B2P purchases relative competitors, and other things I've not mentioned here, are the problems with the Xbox brand today. And it'd take many years before the negative effects of those things could really be reversed. Years, most likely, well beyond what timeframe Microsoft would want to dedicate towards them, just to maybe get console hardware sales going in a positive trajectory again, when that effort could be much better spent on multiplatform publishing and expanding into markets like mobile.
People just need to give up on this dream that Xbox can still compete head-on with PlayStation and Nintendo, because it seems like Microsoft Gaming has internally done so and are shifting into a new direction, gradually. But at least gaming hardware will still play some part in that new direction. It's just very likely not going to be as a traditional console (i.e operating on that type of business model), and I'm gonna stand by that assertion.
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twilo99
Member
Aren't consoles an exception when it comes to selling at loss?
twilo99
Member
That's very interesting.. I will watch it because I'm curious to see why Microsoft would care about the "living room" in the first place
I think they will sell more consoles than they're currently selling if their platform has a steady stream of excellent games. Games sell hardware.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I believe they'd outsell the PlayStation. That ship has long sailed, especially with them releasing their games on PC Day 1...and with even entry level PCs being more capable daily. But your assumption that they have a problem as long as they don't sell more than Sony isn't based on logic. #1 in console sales isn't the only metric for success.
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Mr Hyde
Member
It's actually a very good and interesting documentary. They are surprisingly candid about almost everything Xbox, both good and bad throughout the years. It's well worth a watch. It's six parts by the way, not just the one video I posted.
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Mr Moose
Member
As far as I am aware, only Xbox Series consoles are selling at a loss this gen ($100-200). PS5 hasn't since mid-2021.
Microsoft Loses Between $100-$200 On Every Xbox It Sells
Xbox boss Phil Spencer says the company recoups the losses by selling accessories and subscriptions
kotaku.com
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22015306/vpavic_4278_20201030_0292.jpg)
Sony’s $499 PS5 is no longer selling at a loss
The PS5 won’t be costly like the PS3.
www.theverge.com
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
That wasn't my opinion (them not selling more than Sony is the problem), it was just me figuring that was your take. Which if it wasn't, I stand corrected. However while you're right in a sense that a steady game of big excellent games, again I just want to say the following. I have never said MS don't have any good games, or very good games in some cases. They do.
Which is why I'd rather say "big mainstream-appealing games" instead. Yes they have letdowns like the latest Forza Motorsport or the disaster that is RedFall, but they just released HiFi Rush a year ago, Pentiment's pretty solid, FH5 is pretty good, Flight Sim is great. But none of those either had the marketing or perfect mix of ingredients (or both) to be super-mainstream games, and I'd say most not being industry-leading in some area (outside of Flight Sim) played into it, but is hardly the only factor.
But, again, it's beyond that problem at this point for the brand and even if they were to get that string of games going, the uptick in hardware sales likely wouldn't be worth it. Because for starters, none of these games are genuine exclusives anyway: they're all still Day 1 on PC, or Day 1 in Game Pass. The latter becomes an issue for the console if sub growth is on PC or mobile/TV devices (via things like xCloud) rather than the console. So you still end up with a hard cap on console unit sales anyway, even if the software front significantly improved.
Also FWIW, if any year would've been one for Xbox to see big gains in hardware unit sales, maybe even closing the gap with PS and Switch (on a per-year basis), it was 2023. Sony had only one 1P AAA exclusive for the whole year (as a new game) and that was Spiderman 2. Microsoft had RedFall, Starfield, and Forza Motorsport alongside HiFi Rush. Sony may've had marketing rights to Hogwarts but there were a lot more games released in 2023 and not all of them had marketing rights with Sony. BG3 and Alan Wake 2 are two examples of such. Yet amid all this, PS still handily outsold Xbox by more than 3:1 for 2023, and Xbox had a worst 2023 hardware sales-wise than 2022 where their slate was barren.
Now maybe 2024 is better the way 2023 for PS5 was better than 2022 (granted PS5 supply was heavily constrained for H1 2022), thanks to games like HFW, GT7, and GOW Ragnarok. But the reception to MS's 1P slate last year aside HiFi Rush was nowhere near the same critically or, in all cases, commercially. So I doubt the same fortune blesses Xbox this year (at least, with that as a factor).
vaibhavpisal
Member
If he can predict sales will go down, he also knows why is that the case. Knowledgeable and knows sales much better
Getting my point?
I don’t buy into this idea they cannot increase sales even if they wanted to. The way they market and release games, it ensures their sales don’t explode.
Killjoy-NL
Banned
They're way past that point.
I swear to god, it amazes me how some people are still in complete denial despite Phil Spencer literally explaining how they already lost the console "wars" last-gen.
Luminoth-4545
Member
CESA 2012-2022 UK sales: credit to Asrtral02_lion from InstallBase
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Why are we changing history?
Phil Spencer didn't predict low console sales. He was actually bullish before Series X|S consoles launched.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
CESA 2012-2022 UK sales: credit to Asrtral02_lion from InstallBase
Is this accurate?
Both PS5 and Series being down in UK vs last gen? Wha?
ChuckeRearmed
Member
I think Xbox has no other option but to lower the price of the console permanently. With new upcoming games it should do a trick. And Xbox 360 was 200$ cheaper than PS3 at launch, also launched 1 yearly and even then in Europe PS3 still sold more.
OG Xbox sold only 20m or something and nobody expected Microsoft to leave the console market. So I am not concerned.
OG Xbox sold only 20m or something and nobody expected Microsoft to leave the console market. So I am not concerned.
Lol Market literally hasn't grownCESA 2012-2022 UK sales: credit to Asrtral02_lion from InstallBase
Not yet as all the marketing still at Sony's side.
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Seyken
Member
Some of you guys are on some strong copium when it comes to Xbox console sales numbers and thinking they're fine.
Console with low install base = less developers willing to make a version of their game for the platform = Microsoft has to pay the big bucks to compensate for it and get the game ported anyways.
Same thing with marketing deals: if you are not the market leader, it'll cost you much more. Or do you not think Atlus/Sega are not getting big monies for Persona 3 Reload and Metaphor?
That's the exact reason Microsoft started acquiring studios back in the Xbox One days. It realized playing catch up was starting to get very expensive, and that it was better to just buy the studios outright than to pay absurd fees to get anything.
Factor in all that and realize that this gen is doing even WORSE numbers than the previous one, making those previously talked about fees even more steep. We are about to witness Microsoft either doubling down on studio acquisitions and going on another spree or start making the moves to eventually go 3rd party at least in some capacity. Looking at the recent rumors, the latter is seeming more likely.
Console with low install base = less developers willing to make a version of their game for the platform = Microsoft has to pay the big bucks to compensate for it and get the game ported anyways.
Same thing with marketing deals: if you are not the market leader, it'll cost you much more. Or do you not think Atlus/Sega are not getting big monies for Persona 3 Reload and Metaphor?
That's the exact reason Microsoft started acquiring studios back in the Xbox One days. It realized playing catch up was starting to get very expensive, and that it was better to just buy the studios outright than to pay absurd fees to get anything.
Factor in all that and realize that this gen is doing even WORSE numbers than the previous one, making those previously talked about fees even more steep. We are about to witness Microsoft either doubling down on studio acquisitions and going on another spree or start making the moves to eventually go 3rd party at least in some capacity. Looking at the recent rumors, the latter is seeming more likely.
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Killjoy-NL
Banned
I'm 100% sure Spencer was put in place to oversee the transition to 3rd party if this gen would be worse than last-gen.
And looking how things are going, it shows.
Even the concept of GamePass points to it, same as the Activision/Blizzard acquisition for the reasons you mentioned (although some people here like to dodge that subject like the plague).
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Luminoth-4545
Member
Shortages were pretty bad for PS5 in 2022, in 2023 sales were around 1.11M and that's with only 90% of the market tracked so actual sales were likely 1.22M which is around what the PS4 was selling each year at it's peak. Also we shouldn't forget that PS4 had a lightning fast start in the UK and was much cheaper than the PS5.
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Luminoth-4545
Member
Full year report is out now.
www.gamesindustry.biz
PS5 was the driver behind this. Sony's console saw sales rise 55.2% over 2022, making it the biggest year yet for new PlayStation. It's actually the best year for a PlayStation machine since 2014.
The other console to post year-on-year growth was, interestingly, PS4. Sales of PS4 were up 633% year-on-year. Like with PS5, this is due to severe console shortages that plagued PlayStation consoles throughout the year prior.
Elsewhere, Nintendo Switch ended the year as the No.2 console, but sales are down 16.7% over the year before. This is the Switch's seventh year on the market and a decline was expected.
Narrowly behind Switch is the Xbox Series S and X, which saw sales drop 14.2% over the year before.
Over in accessories, nine million products were sold at UK retail in 2023, a drop of 4.5% over the year before, despite improved console sales.
2022's numbers (below) are upweighted, meaning it is for the full market. The percentage increases/decreases when applied to 2022's upweighted numbers gives us these results for 2023. The totals for 2023 are about 10% higher than estimates using GfX data which only covers 90% of the UK market.
2022
NSW - 880K
PS5 - 780K
XBS - 720K
PS4 - 10K
Total - 2.38M
2023
PS5 - 1.21M (+55.2%)
NSW - 733K (-16.7%)
XBS - 618K (-14.2%)
PS4 - 73K (+633%)
Total - 2.63M (+10%)
UK PC and console sales grew 2.6% in 2023 | UK Annual Report
38 million video games were sold in the UK during 2023, the latest GSD figures reveal. It's a slight increase of 2.6% o…
www.gamesindustry.biz
A big year for PS5, but sales drops elsewhere
2.38 million games consoles were sold during the year in the UK, according to GfK panel data. That's a rise of 9.4% over the year before.PS5 was the driver behind this. Sony's console saw sales rise 55.2% over 2022, making it the biggest year yet for new PlayStation. It's actually the best year for a PlayStation machine since 2014.
The other console to post year-on-year growth was, interestingly, PS4. Sales of PS4 were up 633% year-on-year. Like with PS5, this is due to severe console shortages that plagued PlayStation consoles throughout the year prior.
Elsewhere, Nintendo Switch ended the year as the No.2 console, but sales are down 16.7% over the year before. This is the Switch's seventh year on the market and a decline was expected.
Narrowly behind Switch is the Xbox Series S and X, which saw sales drop 14.2% over the year before.
Over in accessories, nine million products were sold at UK retail in 2023, a drop of 4.5% over the year before, despite improved console sales.
2022's numbers (below) are upweighted, meaning it is for the full market. The percentage increases/decreases when applied to 2022's upweighted numbers gives us these results for 2023. The totals for 2023 are about 10% higher than estimates using GfX data which only covers 90% of the UK market.
2022
NSW - 880K
PS5 - 780K
XBS - 720K
PS4 - 10K
Total - 2.38M
2023
PS5 - 1.21M (+55.2%)
NSW - 733K (-16.7%)
XBS - 618K (-14.2%)
PS4 - 73K (+633%)
Total - 2.63M (+10%)
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Woopah
Member
That's disappointing for Pikmin 4, hopefully it did better with digital included.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
As far as I am aware, only Xbox Series consoles are selling at a loss this gen ($100-200). PS5 hasn't since mid-2021.
Microsoft Loses Between $100-$200 On Every Xbox It Sells
Xbox boss Phil Spencer says the company recoups the losses by selling accessories and subscriptionsSony’s $499 PS5 is no longer selling at a loss
The PS5 won’t be costly like the PS3.
From financial reports, it would seem the PS5 is still sold at a loss.
Mr Moose
Member
I'm a bit surprised Starfield isn't in the top 20, it includes PC/Xbox digital.
20 Grand Theft Auto Online (Rockstar) - Ew.
20 Grand Theft Auto Online (Rockstar) - Ew.
Really? So what's Hiroki Totoki talking about? We found Sonys Phil Spencer.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Things change, and components and supply chain pricing change all the time.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
saintjules
Gold Member
They need more 1st party titles that can compete to the level of Sony and Nintendo.
MS has more money than these two companies combined. Why can't they nail it? Did Sony already scoop up the best devs/people in the business? Or is MS just not caring or is not their MO to make AAA titles the way Playstation does?