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[phisheep]

The percentage of the vote is completely irrelevant. You're not voting for a party or a prime minister. You're voting for a member of parliament.

First past the post is far more open and honest than some fudge compromise that would come about from proportional representation.

One man, one vote is as complicated as it ever needs to get.

For all that I am a rather traditional Tory, I disagree.

FPTP has advantages in terms of representing the constituency and some measure of local accountability, but is seriously borked for setting up governments ever since the rise of the Party machines, whips and so on. Too much polarisation and too many under-represented views.

Trouble is, there are so many ways of doing it different.

My own favourite is to elect the top two from each constituency, put the one who came first in the Commons and the one who came second in the Lords. That way the balance of power is always the right way round - Lords always trumps the government but Commons always trumps the Lords. And most views get represented somewhere unless they can't even come second.

Alternatively, a top-up list coupled with boundary changes would preserve the constituency link and approximate to proportionality while keeping the nutcases out.

I do feel the current discussions focussed purely around the commons as currently constituted to be very narrowly-defined and miss the wider constitutional niceties. What I'd like to see is a system that over the next 50 years or so migrates the seat of Government into the Lords, leaving the Commons as a (roughly) proportionately-elected legislative chamber with far less whipping.

EDIT:

it's a preposterous argument anyway, because we don't have 650 little self-governing island seats which set their own social policies, taxes, regulations, services and run themselves, we have a very central national government that rules from that centre. given the huge importance of that westminster force and the party machines, we should have a fair way of choosing it's direction.

that said it better, and shorter.

 

[Empty]

.

And tactical voting by the public is clearly their own stupid fault. Don't do it and you won't have to try and pretend someone else tricked you into it.

why is it their fault that the game is rigged against them and that their vote would be entirely wasted just because of where they live.

 

[Xavien]

What does 50% have to do with it?

A majority is all that matters and the only result that can be obtained without fiddling with the results and trying to reward the losers like some cry baby toddler that came in last in the egg and spoon race.

And tactical voting by the public is clearly their own stupid fault. Don't do it and you won't have to try and pretend someone else tricked you into it.

um more than 50% of the vote is a majority, i suggest you look up majority in a dictionary, maybe then you'll learn something.

 

[phisheep]

A significant argument (even to the Tories) in favour of some form of PR is the high turnout in this election.

For years there have been concerns about decreasing turnout and how to get people to vote and concerns about civic responsibility (yeah, blame the voters), but all it took was this one election where, because of the perceived LibDem boost, vote share was important and every vote counted. And guess what - people voted.

That's a sell for any believer in democracy.

 

[Furret]

why is it their fault that the game is rigged against them and that their vote would be entirely wasted just because of where they live.

No vote is ever wasted.

On Thursday morning every candidate had exactly zero votes.

If the mindless sheep that then came into vote are already convinced that their vote won't count because of what other people might or might not do they get, and have got, exactly what they deserve.

 

[Xavien]

No vote is ever wasted.

On Thursday morning every candidate had exactly zero votes.

If the mindless sheep that then came into vote are already convinced that their vote won't count because of what other people might or might not do they get, and have got, exactly what they deserve.

wow

 

[Varion]

So, parties for the face to face discussion later are apparently going to be:

"Talks tonight btw Letwin, Osborne, Hague and Laws, Alexander, Huhne and Andrew Stunnell. Cameron's chief of staff Ed Lewellyn also there"

 

[Takeda Kenshi]

You know what's annoying?

Sky classifying hours-old news as 'breaking news'.

Every time I see it flash I expect something actually new. But it's not.

This happens in the US all of the time, and it is indeed incredibly annoying.

 

[phisheep]

1810 A bit more detail on the talks between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. There was a conversation between Nick Clegg and David Cameron on the phone this afternoon. The BBC was told it was very constructive but there was no real discussion of detail and it was very much the start of the process. There will now be further talks starting tonight with a meeting between George Osborne, William Hague, Oliver Letwin and Ed Lewellyn, David Cameron's chief of staff. The Lib Dem team will be Chris Huhne, Danny Alexander, Andrew Stunnell and David Laws

Something tells me this would go a whole lot smoother if John Major and Paddy Ashdown were there as well.

EDIT: beaten by Varion

 

[scotcheggz]

Furret. :lol

People like you scare me.

 

[Varion]

Something tells me this would go a whole lot smoother if John Major and Paddy Ashdown were there as well.

Yeah, I'm not really expeting a huge amount from this lot. No real surprises, but the likes of Osborne don't seem like they're going to want to give an inch.

 

[RedShift]

People who say it's the public's fault for voting tactically really annoy me. It doesn't work like that. If all the people in my constituency who wanted to vote for the Liberal Democrats had decided not to vote tactically and vote for the Lib Dem candidate he still wouldn't have won, and their votes would have no effect on any part of the election. Then the candidate they disliked instead of the candidate they quite liked would get in.

In fact this is what happened in my constituency. Lots of Lib Dem supporters decided to vote for a candidate they knew wouldn't win. We lost our amazing Labour MP for a gentleman farmer.

 

[Empty]

No vote is ever wasted.

On Thursday morning every candidate had exactly zero votes.

If the mindless sheep that then came into vote are already convinced that their vote won't count because of what other people might or might not do they get, and have got, exactly what they deserve.

no it is. my vote in aberdeen north for the lib dems was totally ignored when it comes to representing because i happen to live in a safe seat. so it's a wasted vote. if it wasn't ignored, but was carried with others across a wider area where things were represented proportionally, then you wouldn't have the situation where lib dems get 6.6m votes and 53 seats but labour get 8.4m votes and 252 seats.

 

[Furret]

Furret. :lol

People like you scare me.

And the majority (see below for actual definition) of the electorate scare me.

Oh and for the record I voted Liberal Democrat and we lost by a relatively narrow margin to the Conservatives.

majority
n noun (plural majorities)
1 the greater number.
2 British the number by which the votes cast for one party or candidate exceed those for the next. >United States the number by which votes for one candidate are more than those for all other candidates together.
3 the age when a person is legally a full adult, usually either 18 or 21.
4 the rank or office of a major.

 

[Empty]

lib dems need to tell laws to fuck off and get ashdown and kennedy in that meeting.

 

[Snowman]

That remaining Northern Ireland seat had a majority of 4.

Four.

One. Two. Three. Four votes.

I've said it too many times today, but hopefully the people of the UK get the message.

What would happen if they had gotten the same number of votes? Has that kind of thing ever even happened?

 

[RedShift]

What would happen if they had gotten the same number of votes? Has that kind of thing ever even happened?

If I remember correctly it's never happened but official policy is to... Wait for it ... Flip a coin.

I might be crazy though.

 

[Empty]

here's something that everyone here can approve of: the BNP lost every single one of their 12 seats on barking council last night.

 

[phisheep]

If I remember correctly it's never happened but official policy is to... Wait for it ... Flip a coin.

I might be crazy though.

True, and it has happened (I think fairly recently - I'll try and find where).

EDIT: In fact it happened today!

14:07 GMT, Friday, 7 May 2010 15:07 UK Playing card decides council seat
A pack of cards was used to decide the winner in one ward at the local council elections at Great Yarmouth in Norfolk.

The votes for Yarmouth North were counted four times with Conservative Bob Peck who was defending his seat and Labour's Charlie Marsden both on 1034.

A pack of cards was produced by acting returning officer Richard Packham and the Conservative candidate drew a three and his Labour opponent a seven.

An extra vote was given to Labour who have now taken the seat.

Mr Packham told BBC Radio Norfolk that in such a situation, the option was to draw lots, toss a coin or cut a deck of cards.

There were 14 seats being contested at Great Yarmouth - one of them a by-election caused by the recent death of a councillor - with both Labour and the Conservatives defending seven.

The Conservatives made one gain in Caister South and lost one seat on the turn of a card, meaning the overall layout of the council remained the same with the Conservatives in overall control.

 

[UnblessedSoul]

Wow I couldn't stop facepalming today in college, lots of people voted for the tories because they looked cool or w/e they didn't know anything about the policies, they just voted for whoever their friends did, pretty appalling

 

[Snowman]

If I remember correctly it's never happened but official policy is to... Wait for it ... Flip a coin.

I might be crazy though.

Wow. :lol

 

[blazinglord]

here's something that everyone here can approve of: the BNP lost every single one of their 12 seats on barking council last night.

Out of curiosity, is it clear who benefited from the BNP electoral wipe out on the Barking Council? I.e. was it Labour or the Tories?

 

[Gary Whitta]

here's something that everyone here can approve of: the BNP lost every single one of their 12 seats on barking council last night.

A silver lining indeed!

 

[Gary Whitta]

So, parties for the face to face discussion later are apparently going to be:

"Talks tonight btw Letwin, Osborne, Hague and Laws, Alexander, Huhne and Andrew Stunnell. Cameron's chief of staff Ed Lewellyn also there"

Gotta love those smoke-filled rooms!

 

[scotcheggz]

And the majority (see below for actual definition) of the electorate scare me.

Oh and for the record I voted Liberal Democrat and we lost by a relatively narrow margin to the Conservatives.

majority
n noun (plural majorities)
1 the greater number.
2 British the number by which the votes cast for one party or candidate exceed those for the next. >United States the number by which votes for one candidate are more than those for all other candidates together.
3 the age when a person is legally a full adult, usually either 18 or 21.
4 the rank or office of a major.

Thanks for that, becuase I'm terribly stupid and don't understand the definition of fairly basic words.

It's your misunderstanding of the current electoral system that i was laughing about. I'm not sure why you wanted to tell me who you voted for, but good for you you live in a marginal seat I guess? You can consider yourself lucky in this current system. Unfortunately, it isn't the same in every part of the country.

 

[RedShift]

And the majority (see below for actual definition) of the electorate scare me.

Oh and for the record I voted Liberal Democrat and we lost by a relatively narrow margin to the Conservatives.

majority
n noun (plural majorities)
1 the greater number.
2 British the number by which the votes cast for one party or candidate exceed those for the next. >United States the number by which votes for one candidate are more than those for all other candidates together.
3 the age when a person is legally a full adult, usually either 18 or 21.
4 the rank or office of a major.

So a Labour voter living in a Tory safe seat or a Lib Dem voter in a Labour safe seat or so on should have no say in any level of government?

 

[Empty]

Out of curiosity, is it clear who benefited from the BNP electoral wipe out on the Barking Council? I.e. was it Labour or the Tories?

labour picked up all of them.

but hey blazinglord, i want to know how you are feeling. do you think cameron secured a big enough seat count and what compromises with the lib dems would you find acceptable?

 

[scotcheggz]

here's something that everyone here can approve of: the BNP lost every single one of their 12 seats on barking council last night.

That was great.

If we get good reform however, the BNP can expect better representation. Kind of scary, but hey, thats democracy I guess. Hopefully they took such a beating last night, that people will lose faith in their politic.

And they did get smashed in Barking

 

[phisheep]

a staggeringly good result for the Labour Party

Wow

 

[Ganhyun]

its kinda scary that a coin flip or cutting a deck of cards decides who gets a seat in English elections in the case of a tie.


Why not have a runoff with just those 2 candidate?


oh, or better yet, why not just have both candidates smile and give the seat to the person with the most well taken care teeth?

 

[blazinglord]

labour picked up all of them.

but hey blazinglord, i want to know how you are feeling. do you think cameron secured a big enough seat count and what compromises with the lib dems would you find acceptable?

On the one hand, I would like to see a minority Tory government supported by the Liberal Democrats on a policy-by-policy basis - which would probably be the most rational choice. But on the other hand, I would kind of like to see the LDems join Labour with a bunch of self-centred nationalists and let them destroy themselves electorally in England (and weaken the case for PR) by the infighting and pork-barrel politics that would inevitably occur. Then when the next election is called, which I believe in that scenario would be within a year, the Tories would probably gain an overall majority.

 

[Wes]

What.

What what.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Everyone heard the joke about parliament having become akin to the Human Centipede yet?

 

[Shanadeus]

What.

What what.

"What am I bid for the keys to number 10?"

What the hell are they saying?

 

[jamieson87]

What.

What what.

Then who was phone?

 

[Hot Coldman]

Mail accidently the whole story!

 

[Gary Whitta]

? There's nothing wrong with that sentence.

 

[Sage00]

A weird one but it's actually grammatically correct. You can 'bid' someone, which is the same as saying you will bid for something they have. "What will you bid for the keys to #10 I have?"

 

[firehawk12]

Unless I'm going insane, shouldn't "am" be "will"?

 

[Sage00]

Unless I'm going insane, shouldn't "am" be "will"?

No, it's Nick asking what Dave and Gordon will bid him for the keys, since he's the kingmaker.

 

[curls]

That was great.

If we get good reform however, the BNP can expect better representation. Kind of scary, but hey, thats democracy I guess. Hopefully they took such a beating last night, that people will lose faith in their politic.

And they did get smashed in Barking

These single issue parties come about from not having a fair system in the first place. The thing is PR would kill off the Conservatives in the long run, that's why they will not allow it.

This election highlights an interesting point - people did not have the balls to vote Lib Dem with the 'wasted vote' mentality, their only choice was to vote Conservative in protest of a Labour government, irrespective of what voting Conservative actually means.

 

[phisheep]

Unless I'm going insane, shouldn't "am" be "will"?

No, it is Clegg speaking, not the other two. He is asking for bids. Never been to an auction?

 

[RedShift]

Ok, just had this encounter with someone I don't know on Facebook on a friend's status about a possible LibCon government. I haven't made some sort of huge mistake have I?
Red = Me, Blue = Random Guy, Yellow = Some other guy I know

 

[brain_stew]

Wow

Lets be honest, it was much better than anyone could have imagined six months ago.

 

[firehawk12]

Ahh, I read that as Brown and Cameron throwing competing bids to Clegg to try to get his support. :lol

 

[phisheep]

Ok, just had this encounter with someone I don't know on Facebook on a friend's status about a possible LibCon government. I haven't made some sort of huge mistake have I?

EDIT: No, you're right. (Got my colours muddled up first time, thought you were blue, hence paragraph below).

PR means seats allocated proportionately to share of vote. So where (as here) Libdems are disproportionately underrepresented, then under PR they will get more seats and the other two will get fewer (because Parliament is a fixed size). There will be some take-up by smaller parties below them, but to keep the proportions right that will come predominantly from the larger parties.

EDIT AGAIN: Mind you, this does point up the difficulty of having a meaningful referendum about PR!

 

[Varion]

Ok, just had this encounter with someone I don't know on Facebook on a friend's status about a possible LibCon government. I haven't made some sort of huge mistake have I?

What an idiot.

No, you're right. I think you can safely assume anyone who can't tell the difference between 'are' and 'our' can't have a degree of any kind anyway.

 

[PumpkinPie]

? There's nothing wrong with that sentence.

:lol no, most people just can't read properly.

 

[Sage00]

Tory offer to Lib Dems:

• An all-party committee of inquiry on electoral reform – although Cameron also stressed that he was committed to first past the post, which the Liberal Democrats want scrapped.

• No further expansion of the EU or adoption of any of the Liberal Democrats' policies on immigration – which include an amnesty for illegal immigrants – or scrapping Trident.

• He said it was "reasonable to expect" that the bulk of the Conservative manifesto should be adopted.

• But he would back the Lib Dems' pupil premium system to reward schools that teach pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds. He would also back low carbon economy initiatives and scrapping ID cards.

• He said there was agreement that Labour's plans to increase national insurance, which the Tories have described as a "damaging tax on jobs", would be reversed by a Lib-Con coalition.

• Cameron said he wanted to reach an agreement with the Lib Dems "quickly".

 

[Hot Coldman]

:lol no, most people just can't read properly.

I was almost freaking out reading that sentence. I'd have put it an extra comma or something. But hey, then I'd be writing for the Mail so eff that