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[blazinglord]

Ming Campbell hates the SNP as well. He was one of the main reasons an SNP-Lib Dem coalition did not emerge in the Scottish parliament.

That's strange because I always imagined that Menzies Campbell would lean more to Labour than the Conservatives in this instance. Then again, that has been in part due to his close friendship with Brown. Now that Brown isn't going to be hanging around for much longer though, perhaps Menzies Campbell won't block a deal with the Conservatives if he hates the SNP that much.

 

[avaya]

Argument against PR: "you don't get what you voted for"

Doesn't make any sense.

In FPTP you NEVER get what you voted for unless you were the lucky minority that won.

Nonsense argument from start to finish. Really all arguments for FPTP and against any PR system are really rather pathetic.

The stance against PR starts from the premise that you must convince the electorate to cede the power of their vote. What a crock of shit.

 

[killer_clank]

Oh Boulton :lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NWAkxKQLQs&feature=player_embedded

 

[Chinner]

sun frontpage is pretty tame

 

[Varion]

Oh Boulton :lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NWAkxKQLQs&feature=player_embedded

:lol :lol

I really want someone to make this guy completely snap before this is over.

 

[Gary Whitta]

 

[Varion]

"Why we are all born psychics."

We are?!

 

[Wes]

Seems Brown plays a lot of card games.

 

[Souldriver]

Oh Boulton :lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NWAkxKQLQs&feature=player_embedded

Jesus, this guy is having a total meltdown over this. :lol

 

[blazinglord]

Argument against PR: "you don't get what you voted for"

Doesn't make any sense.

In FPTP you NEVER get what you voted for unless you were the lucky minority that won.

Nonsense argument from start to finish. Really all arguments for FPTP and against any PR system are really rather pathetic.

The stance against PR starts from the premise that you must convince the electorate to cede the power of their vote. What a crock of shit.

Well it could be argued that PR takes power away from the electorate and puts it in the hands of politicians. Look at the secret backroom dealing that has gone on in the last four days. It is the politicians who are deciding who forms the next government, not the electorate. It is generally argued that the overall mood of the country is reflected by the FPTP system - like in 1997, the mood of the country was clearly behind Labour and the need for change. That's not to say that FPTP isn't without its flaws, but it is generally the best possible system for a country like ours. I just cannot see PR succeeding in a political system like ours that has an official opposition and is quite combative.

I actually think that the situation of the past four days will probably turn people against the idea of PR if campaigners for the No vote drum home the point of the lack of transparency. I think the electorate will be especially put off (in England at least) if the coalition of losers becomes a reality and the nationalists self-interests leads to spending cuts that are favourable to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland at England's expense.

Edit: In fact the backlash has already begun according to the BBC liveblog!

2319 David, Blackpool, writes: What is the point in any of us voting? There isn't any one person who is going to get anything that they voted for. If it takes this long to form a coalition after an election, it does not give me much confidence in PR.

 

[Gary Whitta]

Jesus, this guy is having a total meltdown over this. :lol

If I was in charge of Labour spin I would just instruct every single person he interviews to troll him in the exact same manner until he explodes :lol

 

[defel]

Oh Boulton :lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NWAkxKQLQs&feature=player_embedded

Honestly, I think a majority of the population will share Boulton's frustration. Its a Parliamentry democracy, not a presidential democracy but I dont think most people know/care or even understand the difference. There was a huge amount of resentment that Brown became PM without direct election by the people, just watch any number of Question Time episodes from the last 1-2 years. Boulton is acting like a mad-man but it is a popular opinion that stretches beyond the walls of Skyews

 

[Acheteedo]

Oh Boulton :lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NWAkxKQLQs&feature=player_embedded

Is there a channel that has endless Boulton coverage?

Please?

 

[Dark Machine]

sun frontpage is pretty tame

It's been posted? What's it like?

 

[lopaz]

Well it could be argued that PR takes power away from the electorate and puts it in the hands of politicians. Look at the secret backroom dealing that has gone on in the last four days. It is the politicians who are deciding who forms the next government, not the electorate. It is generally argued that the overall mood of the country is reflected by the FPTP system - like in 1997, the mood of the country was clearly behind Labour and the need for change. That's not to say that FPTP isn't without its flaws, but it is generally the best possible system for a country like ours. I just cannot see PR succeeding in a political system like ours that has an official opposition and is quite combative.

I actually think that the situation of the past four days will probably turn people against the idea of PR if campaigners for the No vote drum home the point of the lack of transparency. I think the electorate will be especially put off (in England at least) if the coalition of losers becomes a reality and the nationalists self-interests leads to spending cuts that are favourable to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland at England's expense.

Edit: In fact the backlash has already begun according to the BBC liveblog!

Combative it may be, but the opposition is more or less meaningless most of the time. At least when parties have to deal with each other they need to compromise rather than one party steamrolling their agenda through, quite often on far less than 50% of the vote.

 

[Wes]

"Why we are all born psychics."

We are?!

I knew that.

 

[Walshicus]

Well it could be argued that PR takes power away from the electorate and puts it in the hands of politicians. Look at the secret backroom dealing that has gone on in the last four days. It is the politicians who are deciding who forms the next government, not the electorate. It is generally argued that the overall mood of the country is reflected by the FPTP system - like in 1997, the mood of the country was clearly behind Labour and the need for change. That's not to say that FPTP isn't without its flaws, but it is generally the best possible system for a country like ours. I just cannot see PR succeeding in a political system like ours that has an official opposition and is quite combative.

What the fuck?

How can FPTP EVER reflect the "mood" of the country better than PR? Our system of government is absolutely not represented best by FPTP; we're far too centralised for that to be a valid argument

 

[Souldriver]

If I was in charge of Labour spin I would just instruct every single person he interviews to troll him in the exact same manner until he explodes :lol

Exactly. This Bradshaw guy looked like he even had quite a bit of fun seeing Boulton on the verge of exploding, which makes me think he has actually seen the meltdown earlier today.

 

[Varion]

I think the electorate will be especially put off (in England at least) if the coalition of losers becomes a reality and the nationalists self-interests leads to spending cuts that are favourable to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland at England's expense.

Certainly agree with this. If the nationalists were actually to be given their demands (Plaid's £300million for example) and England basically has to take all of the cuts needed to reduce the deficit, then not only would it strain the union massively, it would really make the general public hate the government and the process of making coalitions.

One reason why I'm staying with my opinion that regardless of what I think about the Conservatives, the Lib Dems should take their offer rather than try for the Rainbow Coalition. If Labour and the Lib Dems together could make a majority then it would be different, but we're not that lucky.

 

[Walshicus]

then not only would it strain the union massively,

Good.

 

[jamieson87]

Boulton should take a few tips from o reiley.

 

[dr_octagon]

It's been posted? What's it like?

Lib Lab Con Dave in AVery attractive PRoposition

 

[Gary Whitta]

Lib Lab Con Dave in AVery attractive PRoposition

I would have gone with INDECENT PROPOSAL

 

[Empty]

2319 David, Blackpool, writes: What is the point in any of us voting? There isn't any one person who is going to get anything that they voted for. If it takes this long to form a coalition after an election, it does not give me much confidence in PR.

yes. i want hugely complex political arrangements to take less than four days, that's really going to mean we get a great deal that works in the interests of the nation. stop being so impatient.

 

[dr_octagon]

I would have gone with INDECENT PROPOSAL

damn, never thought of that

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Fifteen more posts like that and the rise of G. Whitta, Sun Editor will come to pass.

I would have gone with INDECENT PROPOSAL

Fourteen...

 

[Acheteedo]

I would have gone with INDECENT PROPOSAL

I would have gone with "Dumbass Clegg No Match for Glorious Cameron, Also Tits".

 

[blazinglord]

What the fuck?

How can FPTP EVER reflect the "mood" of the country better than PR? Our system of government is absolutely not represented best by FPTP; we're far too centralised for that to be a valid argument

Thursday's election has been unusual in not having some sort of uniform national swing. But generally, the mood of the country is reflected by the national swing to the party that either represents the left or the right. Ultimately, it's really about what kind of system you back. In my view, plurality is the best system. It is what is used for the rest of the time in every walk of life. There's something rather inherently unnatural about coalitions. It's like four players in a game of scrabble, and the three losers join coalition, combine their three scores together and declare themselves as winners - it would just be unfair. I think that if we must change FPTP, then AV would be a good alternative, but actual PR just seems to me fundamentally unBritish.

 

[J Tourettes]

I've not read the Sun recently, what do the page 3 girls think of a Tory lib coalition?

 

[Zenith]

Thursday's election has been unusual in not having some sort of uniform national swing. But generally, the mood of the country is reflected by the national swing to the party that either represents the left or the right. Ultimately, it's really about what kind of system you back. In my view, plurality is the best system. It is what is used for the rest of the time in every walk of life. There's something rather inherently unnatural about coalitions. It's like four players in a game of scrabble, and the three losers join coalition, combine their three scores together and declare themselves as winners - it would just be unfair. I think that if we must change FPTP, then AV would be a good alternative, but actual PR just seems to me fundamentally unBritish.

"unBritish" ......................?

 

[blazinglord]

Combative it may be, but the opposition is more or less meaningless most of the time. At least when parties have to deal with each other they need to compromise rather than one party steamrolling their agenda through, quite often on far less than 50% of the vote.

It's one of the great contradictions of the electorate. On the one hand they say they want compromise and politicians working together, yet they also complain that all the mainstream parties are all the same and there's no real differences between them.

Personally, I like the combative system. I want an alternative voice and an official opposition to question the government's policy - even if I agree with it. It's healthy for democracy to have debates and for someone to question everything.

 

[Sage00]

It's one of the great contradictions of the electorate. On the one hand they say they want compromise and politicians working together, yet they also complain that all the mainstream parties are all the same and there's no real differences between them.

Personally, I like the combative system. I want an alternative voice and an official opposition to question the government's policy - even if I agree with it. It's healthy for democracy to have debates and for someone to question everything.

It's healthy for there to be debates from all sides on the policy they believe in, not just disagreeing because one is the government and one is the opposition. That system is done, it's over.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

So what's everyone's preferred voting system?

mine:

1. STV
2. AV
3. AV+
4. FPTP
5. Some kind of straight up PR with party lists


with a big gap between 2 and 3, i hate the idea of party lists and safe candidates.

 

[travisbickle]

I've not read the Sun recently, what do the page 3 girls think of a Tory lib coalition?

I don't know about that? but I had heard theSun would get rid of page 3 if the Conservatives weren't elected!

 

[Cindres]

Sky News reporter bullies and tells off/yells at protestor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELJh2bTK1ew&feature=player_embedded

This is NOT a news reporters job, this is a fucking disgrace. I actually want to complain about this.
And no, we didn't vote for a hung parliament, we were all (mostly) voting for who we wanted to win this election, or tactically. I was to cunt punt this woman so hard.

 

[Empty]

i hate the idea of party lists and safe candidates.

even if the party lists are open, as could be used for AV+?

 

[blazinglord]

"unBritish" ......................?

Well you can't argue that it would be an import if we did adopt it. Not that it is a reason in itself not to adopt it, but I just cannot see it working in our political system. Even the House of Commons chamber is seating plan acts against it! Would the unelected House of Lords be the guarantor of stability with the unstable House of Commons guided by self-interest? It would require a fundamental change which I'm not convinced the country is ready for. It would be better to reform the House of Lords, adopt PR in that chamber and see how it goes. If it goes well, then maybe adopt it in the House of Commons in twenty or thirty years time. What is the hurry? Rome wasn't built in a day, you can't expect us to wake up in tomorrow with a German style political system.

It's healthy for there to be debates from all sides on the policy they believe in, not just disagreeing because one is the government and one is the opposition. That system is done, it's over.

What evidence is there that it is done? It has always served Britain rather well, we shouldn't throw away centuries of tradition so lightly.

So what's everyone's preferred voting system?

FPTP. If we must change it, then AV but not AV+.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Sky News reporter bullies and tells off/yells at protestor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELJh2bTK1ew&feature=player_embedded

This is NOT a news reporters job, this is a fucking disgrace. I actually want to complain about this.
And no, we didn't vote for a hung parliament, we were all (mostly) voting for who we wanted to win this election, or tactically. I was to cunt punt this woman so hard.

She's an absolute moron.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

Sky News reporter bullies and tells off/yells at protestor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELJh2bTK1ew&feature=player_embedded

This is NOT a news reporters job, this is a fucking disgrace. I actually want to complain about this.
And no, we didn't vote for a hung parliament, we were all (mostly) voting for who we wanted to win this election, or tactically. I was to cunt punt this woman so hard.

That is fucking outrageous.

 

[Dabanton]

Sky News reporter bullies and tells off/yells at protestor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELJh2bTK1ew&feature=player_embedded

This is NOT a news reporters job, this is a fucking disgrace. I actually want to complain about this.
And no, we didn't vote for a hung parliament, we were all (mostly) voting for who we wanted to win this election, or tactically. I was to cunt punt this woman so hard.

Sky News have always been a disgrace but this election they've really raised their game they thought it was a shoe in that the Tories would get in and close Ofcom leaving the way open for Sky News to become the british Fox news with no repercussions.

They can see that dream slowly fading, Boulton probably had a Bill O'Reilly style show lined up.

 

[Sage00]

What evidence is there that it is done? It has always served Britain rather well, we shouldn't throw away centuries of tradition so lightly.

Appeal to tradition fallacy.

 

[Empty]

Well you can't argue that it would be an import if we did adopt it.

stv was invented by a brit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Wright_Hill

 

[Gary Whitta]

Just got the latest Private Eye in the post, can't wait for the next issue, it's bound to be spectacular!

 

[gofreak]

Sky News reporter bullies and tells off/yells at protestor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELJh2bTK1ew&feature=player_embedded

She's terrible here, but the dude is not very articulate.

He should have simply said: 'they are negotiating this reform, and while they are negotiating it, it is the perfect time to show the politicians the depth of feeling we have on this issue via rallies and protests'. That there's no harm in the public expressing their opinion beyond the ballot box, and that they are there to remind Clegg et al of the importance of this huge part of their manifesto. End of story.

 

[Dark Machine]

Well you can't argue that it would be an import if we did adopt it. Not that it is a reason in itself not to adopt it, but I just cannot see it working in our political system. Even the House of Commons chamber is seating plan acts against it! Would the unelected House of Lords be the guarantor of stability with the unstable House of Commons guided by self-interest? It would require a fundamental change which I'm not convinced the country is ready for. It would be better to reform the House of Lords, adopt PR in that chamber and see how it goes. If it goes well, then maybe adopt it in the House of Commons in twenty or thirty years time. What is the hurry? Rome wasn't built in a day, you can't expect us to wake up in tomorrow with a German style political system.


What evidence is there that it is done? It has always served Britain rather well, we shouldn't throw away centuries of tradition so lightly.

Just because we have the longest surviving democracy (I think) doesn't mean we're doing it right. Compromise is something everyone else has to do, so politicians should have to as well. FPTP is just a postcode lottery that assigns you to either have the beliefs of everyone else around you, or to not bother voting. Screw that. The hurry? I'm not allowing Tories and traditionalists to shut this down and not allow me to have my vote for the next 30 years. Bugger you and your tradition good sir!

 

[Salazar]

The moment is coming when Boulton does something GIF-able.

 

[blazinglord]

Appeal to tradition fallacy.

Guilty! You've got me bang to rights.

Seriously though, if PR is riding a sea change then I hope it is done properly and gradually rather than quickly implementing the change and ending up with a bad job and some kind of unforeseen consequence down the line coming back to haunt us. Apparently France adopted it, but it didn't work very well so they got rid of it again.

stv was invented by a brit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Wright_Hill

I stand corrected.

Just because we have the longest surviving democracy (I think) doesn't mean we're doing it right. Compromise is something everyone else has to do, so politicians should have to as well. FPTP is just a postcode lottery that assigns you to either have the beliefs of everyone else around you, or to not bother voting. Screw that. The hurry? I'm not allowing Tories and traditionalists to shut this down and not allow me to have my vote for the next 30 years. Bugger you and your tradition good sir!

Again, haste makes waste.

 

[industrian]

Got the news about Gordon Brown quitting now. Expected, but shocking nonetheless.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Just because we have the longest surviving democracy (I think) doesn't mean we're doing it right. Compromise is something everyone else has to do, so politicians should have to as well. FPTP is just a postcode lottery that assigns you to either have the beliefs of everyone else around you, or to not bother voting. Screw that. The hurry? I'm not allowing Tories and traditionalists to shut this down and not allow me to have my vote for the next 30 years. Bugger you and your tradition good sir!

AV has this same issue too, the unsavoury alternative however is that some votes will have to be represented in parliament by people that aren't at all local.

The biggest problem with our voting system to me is not the safe seats and contested marginals (although it is still a problem) but the fact that people can't vote for who they want to due to tactical voting.

AV seems utterly unobjectionable to me.

 

[seal_club]

She's terrible here, but the dude is not very articulate.

He should have simply said: 'they are negotiating this reform, and while they are negotiating it, it is the perfect time to show the politicians the depth of feeling we have on this issue via rallies and protests'. That there's no harm in the public expressing their opinion beyond the ballot box, and that they are there to remind Clegg et al of the importance of this huge part of their manifesto. End of story.

he does pussy up the proceedings but he's being pretty brow-beaten by this chick for no discernible reason. he seems quite surprised by the whole thing. as anybody probably would (/should) be.

it all stinks, her and boulder dual-wielding the o'reilly factor. hope that bs gets rejected in the long-term by the british public, regardless of whether the shit hits the fan and ofcom gets a cameron wiener in the ass.