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[Parl]

Then again, if a party has support from 25% of the people, it gets 25% of the votes. In Britain it seems like you need only 20% of support to get a majority. Weird.

That's referring to Labour's win in 2005, where they got 22% of the electorate, and 36% of the votes, because of low voter turnout.

 

[freethought]

I guess. Perhaps it's the system that fucks things up.

But in my country, when there are 6 parties, and the results are like this:
25% for first
20% for second
18% for third
15% for forth
14% for fifth
8% for sixth

Then political decency and politeness tells the party with 25% of the votes get to form a a coalition, not the party that got 20% or 18%, even though they could make a majority coalition without the winning party.

Then again, if a party has support from 25% of the people, it gets 25% of the votes. In Britain it seems like you need only 20% of support to get a majority. Weird.

But what happens if nobody is interested in forming a coalition with the winner? Can they then form a majority government? Do the second and third place parties get the chance to form a coalition?

Where are you from anyway? What kind of electoral system do you have? How is your parliament organised? It's tough to draw analogies between two countries which operate under very different systems.

Oh, and you don't even need 20% of the vote to form a government, our system doesn't work like that, if it can be said to work at all.

 

[freethought]

Actually, it's a combination of the two.

You'll have to explain to me how tactical voting isn't a direct result of FPTP.

edit: Actually there is a way. If under a fair system the Lib Dems still polled way to poorly to be even considered a contender, then that too would encourage tactical voting amongst Lib Dem supporters. So I guess your argument is that it's partially FPTP and partially due to the Lib Dems seeming completely ineffectual. In which case, I agree.

 

[Souldriver]

But what happens if nobody is interested in forming a coalition with the winner? Can they then form a majority government? Do the second and third place parties get the chance to form a coalition?

Where are you from anyway? What kind of electoral system do you have? How is your parliament organised? It's tough to draw analogies between two countries which operate under very different systems.

Oh, and you don't even need 20% of the vote to form a government, our system doesn't work like that, if it can be said to work at all.

I'm from Belgium.

The winning party gets to form a government. Off course, when they simply can't come to an agreement with other parties, another party (logically the second biggest) gets a chance to for a coalition.
But following this logic the Conservative Party should get to form a government in the UK (under the assumption they win off course). If after long debating neither Labour or the Lib Dems are willing to join to make a majority, then off course a Lab/Lib government is the only option left.

Also, your last sentence. I recall a few people saying that Labour won the elections about 10 years ago and could form a government based on like 20% of the popular vote. Or was that a minority government? That sure as hell would not be possible in Belgium. 20% of the votes also means 20% of the seats in parliament. Well, there are a few side notes: the country is still devided into regions, and there's a barrier that says parties with less than 5% of the vote can't seat in Parliament. So the parliament seats don't represent the popular vote 100%, but it's a Proportional Representation system. Not a winner takes all system like France (and UK?).

 

[blazinglord]

Strange, I just heard on BBC news that Clegg said that PR would not be precondition in the event of a hung parliament. Isn't the whole point of people voting for the LDems is to bring about electoral reform? :lol

 

[killer_clank]

I'm from Belgium.

The winning party gets to form a government. Off course, when they simply can't come to an agreement with other parties, another party (logically the second biggest) gets a chance to for a coalition.
But following this logic the Conservative Party should get to form a government in the UK (under the assumption they win off course). If after long debating neither Labour or the Lib Dems are willing to join to make a majority, then off course a Lab/Lib government is the only option left.

Also, your last sentence. I recall a few people saying that Labour won the elections about 10 years ago and could form a government based on like 20% of the popular vote. Or was that a minority government? That sure as hell would not be possible in Belgium. 20% of the votes also means 20% of the seats in parliament. Well, there are a few side notes: the country is still devided into regions, and there's a barrier that says parties with less than 5% of the vote can't seat in Parliament. So the parliament seats don't represent the popular vote 100%, but it's a Proportional Representation system. Not a winner takes all system like France (and UK?).

The UK general elections have no PR at all. It's an insanely unfair system that promotes two party politics and gives a huge advantage in terms of voting strength to upper middle classes living in the countryside of the south of England, who basically are the ones that decide the election.

It theoretically is possible that Labour could come third in no. of votes on Thursday, and STILL form a government. What a joke.

 

[Chinner]

Strange, I just heard on BBC news that Clegg said that PR would not be precondition in the event of a hung parliament. Isn't the whole point of people voting for the LDems is to bring about electoral reform? :lol

But Clegg has been on GMTV this morning to insist that he has not changed his stance.


I have never talked about preconditions for talks. I have always talked about the things I want to fight for, the changes I want to fight for. Yes, I want a new political system because I think the old one is bust.

i know what you mean, seems hes trying to say both things.

 

[sohois]

Well, Clegg is still a politician after all.

 

[freethought]

I'm from Belgium.

The winning party gets to form a government. Off course, when they simply can't come to an agreement with other parties, another party (logically the second biggest) gets a chance to for a coalition.
But following this logic the Conservative Party should get to form a government in the UK (under the assumption they win off course). If after long debating neither Labour or the Lib Dems are willing to join to make a majority, then off course a Lab/Lib government is the only option left.

Also, your last sentence. I recall a few people saying that Labour won the elections about 10 years ago and could form a government based on like 20% of the popular vote. Or was that a minority government? That sure as hell would not be possible in Belgium. 20% of the votes also means 20% of the seats in parliament. Well, there are a few side notes: the country is still devided into regions, and there's a barrier that says parties with less than 5% of the vote can't seat in Parliament. So the parliament seats don't represent the popular vote 100%, but it's a Proportional Representation system. Not a winner takes all system like France (and UK?).

Ah, I see where your confusion is coming from. You see, your country has strong democratic forms, ours does not. Congratulations, you smug Belgian bastard.

You should go play around with the BBC election seat calculator. It will blow your mind. (See what happens if the vote is evenly split between all three parties, then find out how much more of the vote Lib Dems need to pull in order to form a government.)

 

[iapetus]

(See what happens if the vote is evenly split between all three parties, then find out how much more of the vote Lib Dems need to pull in order to form a government.)

Does the swingometer even swing that far?

 

[JonathanEx]

Does the swingometer even swing that far?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8574653.stm

The Lab vs Lib Dem one does, about 19%, but the Con vs Lib Dem one doesn't swing that far.

 

[Chinner]

what happens if theres a hung parliament:
http://www.nextleft.org/2010/05/revealed-tory-strategy-to-pull-queen.html

Here is what has now emerged as the Tory plan:

• Declare victory anyway.
• Have the party's media allies strain every sinew to make that a self-fulfilling prophecy.
• Insist on being given the keys to number 10 without having to talk substantively to any other party first - to avoid a coalition or any substantive policy concessions.
• Make a partisan challenge to the civil service in seeking to overturn any existing constitutional convention or practice that might conceivably get in the way, or even slow this down a little.
• Threaten to drag the Monarchy into political controversy for partisan advantage, by challenging the conventions designed precisely to avoid this.
• Hold out against electoral reform, whatever the election result.
• Threaten apocalyptic political and financial meltdown if anybody disagrees.

for a party preaching maturity dis is pretty lo

 

[radioheadrule83]

i know what you mean, seems hes trying to say both things.

Not really, they're priorities, if they were to win they'd impliment them, if they were to exert influence in talks they'd try and get it done -- but they're not a pre-condition to talks taking place at all. Thats sensible isn't it?

Pre-conditions never work well in talks. Examples being that it doesn't work well in Business/Union disputes, and doesn't work in Israel-Palestine. With 19 days to clear up what happens in the event of a hung parliament, having pre-conditions before even sitting at a table with others would be stupid.

 

[blazinglord]

Not really, they're priorities, if they were to win they'd impliment them, if they were to exert influence in talks they'd try and get it done -- but they're not a pre-condition to talks taking place at all. Thats sensible isn't it?

Pre-conditions never work well in talks. Examples being that it doesn't work well in Business/Union disputes, and doesn't work in Israel-Palestine. With 19 days to clear up what happens in the event of a hung parliament, having pre-conditions before even sitting at a table with others would be stupid.

It would be quite breathtaking for the Liberal Democrats to suddenly give up their pledge for electoral reform and get into bed with the Conservatives. If the LDems are in the position to call the shots on Friday, then they should stick to their guns and demand for a referendum on changing the voting system. Although I am personally against PR, I would not oppose having a referendum to let the public decide and thereby putting the whole matter to rest once and for all.

 

[radioheadrule83]

what happens if theres a hung parliament:
http://www.nextleft.org/2010/05/revealed-tory-strategy-to-pull-queen.html

for a party preaching maturity dis is pretty lo

God... I wouldn't be surprised. They view the prospect of Electoral Reform as the end of them, they probably feel like they're fighting for the party's very survival. In reality, they should look at it as an opportunity to win seats they've previously never won before - an opportunity to renew themselves and make themselves more reflective of the will of the public.

If there's a hung parliament and the Conservatives try to claim victory, I hope there's riots / protests in the streets.

 

[blazinglord]

God... I wouldn't be surprised. They view the prospect of Electoral Reform as the end of them, they probably feel like they're fighting for the party's very survival. In reality, they should look at it as an opportunity to win seats they've previously never won before - an opportunity to renew themselves and make themselves more reflective of the will of the public.

If there's a hung parliament and the Conservatives try to claim victory, I hope there's riots / protests in the streets.

At the end of the day, the Conservatives are entitled to lead a minority government if they have the largest number of seats and Labour and the LDems are both well within their right to topple the government. It wouldn't be a coup seeing as the minority government would still require majority support in parliament to pass their legislation.

 

[Meadows]

Love the fact that Labour voters are whining about having to vote LD tactically and vice-versa when I'm one of only two constituencies where you have to vote for a minor party to keep the Tories out (Aberconwy: Plaid Cymru, Kiddeminster: Some Doctor or something). Seriously don't wanna vote PC but suppose I have to for the greater good.

 

[freethought]

what happens if theres a hung parliament:
http://www.nextleft.org/2010/05/revealed-tory-strategy-to-pull-queen.html

for a party preaching maturity dis is pretty lo

So basically the Republican strategy in 2000. I don't think Cameron has a cousin working at Sky News though. How will they circumvent the BBC?

 

[radioheadrule83]

At the end of the day, the Conservatives are entitled to lead a minority government if they have the largest number of seats and Labour and the LDems are both well within their right to topple the government. It wouldn't be a coup seeing as the minority government would still require majority support in parliament to pass their legislation.

Trying to run a minority government wouldn't be a problem, trying to retrospectively change hundreds of years of tradition in order to stifle the possibility of the others forming a coalition in time, in order to snatch power - that would just be a cheap power-grab. Using the media empire(s) of their friends to try and do that would stink as well.

A line should be drawn somewhere.

 

[Dark Machine]

The Conservative Party raised more money - some £12.3 million - in the first three months of this year than all the other political parties put together, according to the latest figures on donations. Labour accepted £4,072,432, while the Liberal Democrats received £1,931,147.

How on earth have the Tories not won an overwhelming majority? Seriously...

 

[iapetus]

what happens if theres a hung parliament:
http://www.nextleft.org/2010/05/revealed-tory-strategy-to-pull-queen.html

for a party preaching maturity dis is pretty lo

I always get my insight into Cameron's plans from the Fabian Society. They're inclined to take a neutral viewpoint to it and not attempt to sensationalise or misrepresent.

 

[Jill Sandwich]

How on earth have the Tories not won an overwhelming majority? Seriously...

They wasted the money creating an unconvincing android as the party leader.

 

[Veidt]

what happens if theres a hung parliament:
http://www.nextleft.org/2010/05/revealed-tory-strategy-to-pull-queen.html

for a party preaching maturity dis is pretty lo

Hope the people won't fall for those G.W Bush in the 2000 elections- tactics.
It'll be interesting to see what's going to happen to say the least.

I imagine some riots will ensue, and calm down within about a week. Because riots have never achieved anything.

Voting cons means dooming every single one of us :lol

 

[Walshicus]

Love the fact that Labour voters are whining about having to vote LD tactically and vice-versa when I'm one of only two constituencies where you have to vote for a minor party to keep the Tories out (Aberconwy: Plaid Cymru, Kiddeminster: Some Doctor or something). Seriously don't wanna vote PC but suppose I have to for the greater good.

Nothing wrong with Plaid.

Spoiler

Is my anti-UK, pro-Wales pro-Scotland pro-England agenda transparent enough yet?

 

[Azih]

You guys better hope some fourth party doesn't get popular or you're going to be in minority land for a looong time. An actual multi party situation in a FPTP voting system is just plain crazy as each party has no incentive to compromise and govern (as they have to in a PR system) but instead to scream and shout and be in prepetual campaign mode just so that *next* time they'll scrape up just enough (36%?) to get a 'majority'.

O Canada and all that.

 

[J Tourettes]

Hope the people won't fall for those G.W Bush in the 2000 elections- tactics.
It'll be interesting to see what's going to happen to say the least.

I imagine some riots will ensue, and calm down within about a week. Because riots have never achieved anything.

Voting cons means dooming every single one of us :lol

Poll tax riots beg to differ.

 

[SmokyDave]

Nothing wrong with Plaid.

Spoiler

Is my anti-UK, pro-Wales pro-Scotland pro-England agenda transparent enough yet?

It is a clear as an azure lake and I thoroughly approve. You'll probably get Google on board too (The GAFfer, not the search engine).

 

[freethought]

Does the swingometer even swing that far?

I'm not even sure it swings in that direction.

 

[Xavien]

You guys better hope some fourth party doesn't get popular or you're going to be in minority land for a looong time. An actual multi party situation in a FPTP voting system is just plain crazy as each party has no incentive to compromise and govern (as they have to in a PR system) but instead to scream and shout and be in prepetual campaign mode just so that *next* time they'll scrape up just enough (36%?) to get a 'majority'.

O Canada and all that.

I agree, to have Conservatives try to run a Minority Government would just be insane and will never work and they'll never form a coalition with the other parties. Come this election if the Cons don't get a majority, well i can quite easily see Cons never getting into power again.

FPTP as it stands is ridiculous, with 3 parties it gets even more silly, nearly 1/3 of the popular vote yet only a 1/6 of the seats? wat.

Friday is the UK's day of judgement imho, we'll either sink or swim depending on the outcome (both electorally and economically).

 

[Veidt]

Poll tax riots beg to differ.

I hope it'll be the case with this too.

 

[Stumpokapow]

You ever notice the Bartlett presidency had absolutely no lasting legacy? Typical liberal, lots of talk, no action.

I did like the episode where he was seconds away from campaign finance reform and it was never mentioned again. Something tells me the DNC put the kibosh on that little venture.

fake edit: Actually, I forgot that he plunged America into a deeply unpopular war literally moments before leaving office. It would be like Bush invading Iran on January 19th 2009. Bartlett was a fucking terrible president. He should have left it at one term, for fictional reasons and because season five onwards was garbage.

To be fair, he got his second term because Bob Ritchie was a fucking terrible opponent.

"Crime. Boy, I don't know."

 

[Gary Whitta]

So basically the Republican strategy in 2000. I don't think Cameron has a cousin working at Sky News though. How will they circumvent the BBC?

He doesn't need a cousin, he's got his best friend Rupert.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Speaking of Rupert, has everyone heard that in response to the Indy besmirching the good name of Murdoch, the Sunday Times will be running an investigation into the new owner of the Indy, Mr Lebedev? Its turning into a good little war

 

[Walshicus]

It is a clear as an azure lake and I thoroughly approve. You'll probably get Google on board too (The GAFfer, not the search engine).

Just you wait...

 

[Subliminal]

http://62.149.36.33/~gregknig/song.php

 

[J Tourettes]

Speaking of Rupert, has everyone heard that in response to the Indy besmirching the good name of Murdoch, the Sunday Times will be running an investigation into the new owner of the Indy, Mr Lebedev? Its turning into a good little war

I can't wait to read the behind the scene stories in the Private Eye. The last battle between owners made for awesome reading.

 

[jamieson87]

They wasted the money creating an unconvincing android as the party leader.

:lol He does actually look quite like Data.

 

[RedShift]

Gotta love The Mirror right now

He looks a lot like Piers Morgan with that cross over his face.

*Doesn't vote Conservative even more*

 

[Sage00]

Brown with another great speech live on BBC News right now.

 

[DECK'ARD]

http://62.149.36.33/~gregknig/song.php

That is painful.

 

[JonathanEx]

I'm at a local hustings. I'm enjoying this election time. I think I will slightly miss it. Well, unless we have another soon.

 

[Varion]

YouGov Poll, fieldwork 3rd/4th May:
Conservative 35% (No change)
Labour 30% (+2%)
Lib Dems 24% (-4%)

Ffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

[Gary Whitta]

http://www.thekitchen.ikea.co.uk/domestic-policy/election.html

(Mouse over things for more fun)

:lol

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

So, who here has to do a tactical vote as I am in two minds

It's a toss up between Labour and the Cons, but the Libs in FARRRR 3rd place! Now I don't want to waste my vote in terms of who will win seats, but I'll like to make a statement and feel right inside and vote for the Libs

Who else is in a tossup area? (I've just seen my council on the front of the Daily Mirror lol)

 

[Varion]

So, who here has to do a tactical vote as I am in two minds

It's a toss up between Labour and the Cons, but the Libs in FARRRR 3rd place! Now I don't want to waste my vote in terms of who will win seats, but I'll like to make a statement and feel right inside and vote for the Libs

Who else is in a tossup area? (I've just seen my council on the front of the Daily Mirror lol)

I'm not doing a tactical vote (Labour have the majority in this situation, but the Lib Dems could still take it from them - Tories have no chance at all, though) but I don't think you should feel bad about it. At this point, the Liberals just didn't gain enough momentum from campaigning to earn a majority. I'd love it to happen, and they still have my vote, but it just won't happen. That being the case, hung parliament is the best chance of reform. And seen as there's no 'hung parliament' option on the ballot form...

 

[Empty]

YouGov Poll, fieldwork 3rd/4th May:
Conservative 35% (No change)
Labour 30% (+2%)
Lib Dems 24% (-4%)

Ffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

oh fucking hell.

 

[Meadows]

http://www.thekitchen.ikea.co.uk/domestic-policy/election.html

(Mouse over things for more fun)

:lol

:lol :lol :lol

 

[killer_clank]

http://www.thekitchen.ikea.co.uk/domestic-policy/election.html

(Mouse over things for more fun)

:lol

Holy shit! :lol
God, they take the piss out of Cameron so much :lol :lol

 

[Sage00]

YouGov Poll, fieldwork 3rd/4th May:
Conservative 35% (No change)
Labour 30% (+2%)
Lib Dems 24% (-4%)

Ffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

That would give Labour the most seats, and that's a YouGov/Sun poll.

Imagine Gordon actually pulls it off. I don't think I could stop laughing. :lol

 

[avaya]

YouGov Poll, fieldwork 3rd/4th May:
Conservative 35% (No change)
Labour 30% (+2%)
Lib Dems 24% (-4%)

Ffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

The variation in this poll is mental.