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UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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FlammableD
Banned
Not particularly, radicalisation in Britain was the main thrust of his point I think.
That was rather petty of Cameron. It'd be nice if we could have a politics in this country without one side accusing the other of 'hating Britain'
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
I feel like this is a really weird and circuitous argument. Engaging with Cameron's words is giving it more than it deserves.
Central to political action is the idea that the country is not as right as you would have it. Does wanting to change things mean you don't like it?
The morning after Panorama last night we have stuff like this coming out.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ped-charges-mps-royal-family-intervened-court
This is just another addition to the pile of evidence that child abuse was not just perpetrated by out of control individuals but a coordinated group.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ped-charges-mps-royal-family-intervened-court
This is just another addition to the pile of evidence that child abuse was not just perpetrated by out of control individuals but a coordinated group.
Gove did an interview on Daily Politics where Andrew Neil attacked him on the Conservatives' housing record, seems to be doing the rounds in lefty Twitter circles so here you go.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p034lp48
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p034lp48
Cameron's vision for Britain is a corporatist hellhole where the government exists only to serve the interests of the most powerful people on the nation, and everyone else is just cheap labour generating wealth for the people at the top. Or at least, that's a pretty reasonable inference from his party's policies. In what sense does that illustrate a love for Britain?
In other words you disagree with him and can only articulate extremes to try to provide your point.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
There's a difference between disagreeing with somebody and having your life and the lives of people you know and love actively fucked with by them.
You haven't had your life fucked with yet? Feel lucky, and maybe listen to the people who have been affected by the people you vote for.
Not really extremes when the leaders of the party say that British people should work as hard as the Chinese and that people declared unfit for work by their GP should still work if they want benefits.
The Daily Mail on BBC news just called him out on it.
THE DAILY FUCKING MAIL.
*Checks out the window for the four horsemen*
Jezbollah
Member
The Daily Mail aren't exactly fans of Cameron - see the recent swine related stories and their origin.
They love Osborne though, which will help him in a couple of years.
CyclopsRock
Member
Eeerrr Corbyn's pretty much the definition of a terrorist sympathiser, isn't he? Where, it's important to remember, "sympathiser" isn't synonymous with "supporter".
PJV3
Member
More like the communities they spring from, he's an internationalist and thinks you should always understand historical grievances.
Cameron knew what he was doing by implying that Corbyn didn't understand that 9/11 was a tragedy.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
Yup, he knew he was talking shit, and that says volumes about his opinion of the people he's trying to convince.
it's good politics.
as a result corbyn's response to cameron's speech is just him whining that cameron was mean to him while the terrifying (for the left) tory attempt to position themselves as camping in labour territory and ready to poach a significant portion of their core vote isn't getting exposed for the cheap lie that it really is.
i mean even if cameron looks stupid by over-egging things he still gets corbyn to admit that actually he only said that bin laden's death was a tragedy on top of 9/11 being a tragedy which still puts him at odds with the electorate's opinion and ultimately reminds people of all the other stuff he's said that's dodgy about putin and hamas that puts people off.
as a result corbyn's response to cameron's speech is just him whining that cameron was mean to him while the terrifying (for the left) tory attempt to position themselves as camping in labour territory and ready to poach a significant portion of their core vote isn't getting exposed for the cheap lie that it really is.
i mean even if cameron looks stupid by over-egging things he still gets corbyn to admit that actually he only said that bin laden's death was a tragedy on top of 9/11 being a tragedy which still puts him at odds with the electorate's opinion and ultimately reminds people of all the other stuff he's said that's dodgy about putin and hamas that puts people off.
There're plonking themselves firmly in the centre ground that labour have vacated.
The welfare system isn't ideal but it never has been or ever will be. Make it too generous and it becomes a tempting way of life, make it too stingy and it doesn't help those who need it. It was to generous but the best balance is yet to be found so expect tinkering for a while yet. Unfortunately those used to a welfare system working one way will always have to adjust when changes are made.
I never thought a conservative government would hammer shareholder earnings with tax so much and raise the threshold so high for the lowest paid so quickly but they have. They are doing stuff that a lot of left minded are keen to ignore.
They didn't raise the threshold for the lowest paid, they raised it for everyone. Cumulatively every budget and autumn statement since 2010 has benefited above average earners (although those at the very very very top come out worse but not as bad as those at the very bottom) the most in percentage terms and it's not even close.
Very easy to say to the poorest in society to adjust, far harder for them to do it in practice. The Tories might be couching some of their language to the centre (some of them are anyway, IDS and May not so much) but their policy making tells a very different story. Pigfucker can talk about "ending the scourge of poverty" but at the same time his old mucker Willetts think tank have just released analysis showing that this years changes are going put another 200,000 working households below the poverty line. Don't worry old porky balls is changing the statistical definition of poverty and they aren't going to send out the letters about the tax credit cuts until after Christmas.
PJV3
Member
Maybe, I just found it very Unnecessary, Corbyn is incredibly weak on the defence issue anyway. I just don't want that tea party level shite in our politics.
Adjust.
You are talking about people on the bare bones of their arse, they have nothing to adjust with.
I would have thought they would have more restraint when he is at the party conference.
I know it is generally said that Corbyn is weak on defence, but would we have the current crisis if the Iraq war had never happened? I think he could have answered the Trident question more tactfully, but apart from that I think his foreign policy is an overall improvement on our previous and current interventionist ones.
Fernando Fernandez
Member
How depressing.
PJV3
Member
I'm 90% with Corbyn but in this political climate he's going to get hammered, same with his position on immigration.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
What? In what way does absolute, outright bullshit serve anyone in any meaningful way?
It's a lie, to your face, and you're applauding it like a good little voter.
Coriolanus
Banned
Serves the tories in this particular case. That's good enough for them. Dude ain't applauding, he's just explaining the logic behind it.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
By praising it as "good politics".
PJV3
Member
Effective politics(for the Tories).
Same shit happened back in the day when he talked to Irish republicans, then the Tories started talking to them in secret as well.
Well this just goes to show that you can prove any old nonsense with facts.
Coriolanus
Banned
good politics for the party =/= good politics for the voters.
Yes, it is grotesque. Yes, it is horrible. Yes, it is sad.
It is also how the game is played.
#anewoldkindofpolitics
It's Reyn Time!
Member
People like you and I accepting that this is how the 'game' is 'played' is the only reason the 'game' can continue. Start calling it what it is. It's not good politics, it's very, very bad humaning and it deserves to be called out and ridiculed every time.
Coriolanus
Banned
That's for Corbyn to do. The narrative the tories push can be both a boon and a curse. Depends entirely on how he'll handle it. If he tries to play it on their terms, he'll fail. If he refuses to play that game and finds a different, more honest approach that somehow doesn't get coopted, he'll persevere. That he came to power so far away from the next election is a positive, for there is enough time to make these attacks grow old, stale, and most important, boring.
None of that changes the fact that, for the tories, what they're doing is good politics. One should never expect fairness from their opponent, after all.
I mean, you dealing with people that fuck pigs.
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
"In response, a spokesman for Mr Corbyn - who travelled to Manchester during the Conservative conference to address a protest rally - said: "The fact that David Cameron used his speech to make personal attacks on Jeremy Corbyn are a sure sign that he is rattled by the re-energisation of the Labour Party.
"With cuts to tax credits and a continued failure on housing, his claim that the Conservatives are the party of working people is being exposed.""
That's not whining that he was mean, nor admitting "that actually he only said that bin laden's death was a tragedy on top of 9/11 being a tragedy".
Also he was saying it was a tragedy he didn't get a trial. Because you know, political assassination is kind of fucked up.
They raised the threshold and then removed tax breaks on dividends with hefty tweaks to capital gains. I know because I'm going to get hit hard being a company director. I should note that I'm far from being wealthy as I run a small business and I need to find a few thousand extra quid in tax from somewhere. I'm going to find it a bit rough for a couple of years being the only earner in my house. (Young twins, I can't get state child care so the wife stays at home as she'd have to earn over 130 quid a day to pay for it.) You know what, I'm not going to cry about it I'm just going to work harder and try to grow the business to make the shortfall up.
I would have expected that to come from a labour government. Even then only a Corbyn minded Labour government.
With tax credits what they are doing makes complete sense mid to long term, short term it'll be difficult for some while everyone adjusts but people will adjust. The system of taxing only to give it back was stupid when there's an option to just not tax in the first place. The new system will cut out the fiddling of the tax credit system as well as there's no longer a system to fiddle. I don't see why other than the infirm should feel completely secure in a welfare system that never changes and only grows. It doesn't happen in the workplace, things do need to change at times.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Just looks petty.
What's the point? Honestly no one will remember in 4 years time. The voting public have a shorter memory than gamers.
I know I'm just dreaming, but what better way to change politics than successfully pin the Prime Minister with slander? Maybe such a precedent might make them tone down the mudslinging and bullshit.
Huh, just caught up with the recent developments. (Bear in mind I'm not British.)
Looks like Cameron is playing a blinder. As he said in the speech, he must feel like he's died and gone to heaven. Very strong performance from him. Again. Feels like he's now so strong he can dictate to his party what the agenda will be rather than them dictating to him.
I'm now in the unprecedented position of quite liking both major party leaders in the UK. I like that Labour is lead by a properly left-wing man who appears to have no time for real-politik bullshit and who has pushed the entire discourse to the left and re-energised that section of the electorate. A man whose record shows that he has the courage of his convictions. Labour finally feels like a real option for their old base again, rather than as a begrudging vote for "less competent Tory-lite".
And I'm happy that Cameron has responded in kind by pulling his party into the space vacated by Labour's leftward move. Yes, it's for their own gain, but it's good for Britain too, surely. The whole thing shifts leftward. And anything that upsets the Daily Mail that much must be a positive. Let's be fair, a Tory leader saying the things he was saying regarding the lack of social mobility or racism against muslims being massive issues would have been inconceivable 10, 20 years ago. Even if they're just words at the moment, it's an important shift. If he can back it up he'll be remembered very fondly indeed. Only misstep was the shitty way he quoted Corbyn. Didn't like that, especially when Corbyn has gone out of his way to be cordial and mature so far (and frankly poses little threat at this stage). Polite respect would have disarmed people in the same way much of the rest of the speech did.
Those who just throw tribal vitriol around like 'Pigfucker' etc will never be convinced by anything either party does so I feel their opinions can be safely ignored. It's far more interesting watching as a neutral. One who votes far-left in his own country. Can't wait to see how things develop. Hopefully well.
I agree with all of that, especially with the constant balancing of the welfare system being something that's required.
Looks like Cameron is playing a blinder. As he said in the speech, he must feel like he's died and gone to heaven. Very strong performance from him. Again. Feels like he's now so strong he can dictate to his party what the agenda will be rather than them dictating to him.
I'm now in the unprecedented position of quite liking both major party leaders in the UK. I like that Labour is lead by a properly left-wing man who appears to have no time for real-politik bullshit and who has pushed the entire discourse to the left and re-energised that section of the electorate. A man whose record shows that he has the courage of his convictions. Labour finally feels like a real option for their old base again, rather than as a begrudging vote for "less competent Tory-lite".
And I'm happy that Cameron has responded in kind by pulling his party into the space vacated by Labour's leftward move. Yes, it's for their own gain, but it's good for Britain too, surely. The whole thing shifts leftward. And anything that upsets the Daily Mail that much must be a positive. Let's be fair, a Tory leader saying the things he was saying regarding the lack of social mobility or racism against muslims being massive issues would have been inconceivable 10, 20 years ago. Even if they're just words at the moment, it's an important shift. If he can back it up he'll be remembered very fondly indeed. Only misstep was the shitty way he quoted Corbyn. Didn't like that, especially when Corbyn has gone out of his way to be cordial and mature so far (and frankly poses little threat at this stage). Polite respect would have disarmed people in the same way much of the rest of the speech did.
Those who just throw tribal vitriol around like 'Pigfucker' etc will never be convinced by anything either party does so I feel their opinions can be safely ignored. It's far more interesting watching as a neutral. One who votes far-left in his own country. Can't wait to see how things develop. Hopefully well.
I agree with all of that, especially with the constant balancing of the welfare system being something that's required.
Just want to address this point, the annual earnings of the majority of households claiming tax credits is below the annual threshold before income tax is collected. So unless VAT and NICs are also going to be adjusted (they aren't) it's a very well spun but dishonest point.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
I'm sure if your company collapses and you find you, your wife and your young twins on benefits you'll be able to adjust accordingly.
Hey, come on, that's uncalled for.
In other news, Corbyn has said he doesn't have time to meet the queen because he wants to focus on politics - you can imagine how this has gone down.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
That wasn't a personal attack, he presented a concern over the future of his company and that's one of the things the benefits system is there for, to help you if you find yourself in that kind of problematic situation.
Good.
Cameron's rhetoric is very positive, and I personally think he's quite liberal in many regards, at least for a Conservative. It would be great if he could pull the rest of the Conservative party with him in a more leftward direction.
But sadly, the rhetoric from other senior figures within the Conservative party, as well as their record, doesn't exactly speak of a more liberal, moderate, centrist position. IDS, May and even Hunt had the most appaling things to say this conference, and are putting forward some real hard right policies. The 'homeowning' revolution they promise sounds great, but building some 200,000 homes that'll cost at least £250,000 won't help the millions of people who need far more affordable homes. Devolving business rates sounds good, but councils can only cut them, they have to get approval from local businesses to raise them, which will only hammer local governments budget's even further. Then there's the whole mess with cutting working tax credit for the poorest while saying they're for helping the working poor.
If Cameron's policies matched his rhetoric, that'd be great. But so far all the Tories have done are talk about how they're in the middle ground while announcing rather right wing policies.
Outside of the Corbyn lies, this part wound me up the most. Saying they're going to change regulations so that instead of developers building 'affordable' rental properties they are going to be 'affordable' properties to buy. So what will happen? Those in actual need of actual affordable housing won't be able to afford it, those with money will swoop in and buy these homes as investments and either turn around and rent them anyway continuing the buy to let madness or flip them for a profit.
I'd like to think they would properly means test who can buy them (please tell me if this is the case!), but I can't see it happening. End result, the have nots get screwed to benefit the haves, business as usual.
Nicktendo86
Member
So now the major conferences are now over (except for the lib dems of course, lol) I am pretty much convinced that the Tories will get above 40% at the next election. Cameron is clearly land grabbing the vacated centre left ground that Labour has left behind.
I'm also pretty sure that Ruth Davidson will have a Westminster seat before long and will be in the cabinet.
I'm also pretty sure that Ruth Davidson will have a Westminster seat before long and will be in the cabinet.
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