D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
So, to get this straight, you're so fed up of governments following the only sensible policy they have available to them that you want to them to engage in a downright stupid one?
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UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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I'm not saying I advocate any particular policy. I'm saying I don't care which one they follow.
The current policy isn't exactly a resounding success.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
An escalation isn't a guaranteed negative. You can't destroy an ideology, but smashing ISIS' regional control would at least make it much harder for them to launch attacks and train recruits.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Have some fucking perspective. ~150 people have died in France in the last year as a result of terrorist attacks. and this is an unusually large amount that has seen no precedent in prior years, despite the fact that ISIS were in a better position in 2013/14 than they are now having lost several key cities including Sinjar. The United States alone, ignoring the casualties for other coalition forces, lost more lives than that *on average* (i.e.: not out of the ordinary like France's tragic loss) every three months in Iraq, against a much more poorly organized guerilla force. Even if you did reduce ISIS recruitment (which doesn't guarantee a reduction in terror; remember when we killed all of al-Qa'ida's main recruitment people and how it stopped Islamic terror incidents? No?), you'd be leading to more deaths, and by a bigger number by far.
But imagine if a Blairite were leading the Labour party right now, maybe someone who voted for the Iraq war or who has more recently said they supported it?
They'd be getting pasted from pillar to post about how it's Labour's fault this all happened (and we all know how effective a line of spin that is).
They'd be getting pasted from pillar to post about how it's Labour's fault this all happened (and we all know how effective a line of spin that is).
Coriolanus
Banned
The interesting thing about this discussion is that it shows just why people like Corbyn are needed. Were any other Labour leader in place, they would've most likely promptly surrendered to the easy, ineffective narrative of "We Must Do Something", and... well.. when you agree with the opposition's narrative, especially in topics where they are completely fucking wrong, you're simply destroying your own base. It's a terrible long term strategy, and given that you'll be stuck with Cameron for quite a while, good long term strategies are exactly what one needs.
Provide your own narrative, stick with it if it is correct, and brave the storm. Hardest challenge will, as usual, come from inside Labour.
Then be in the perfect position to call the other side fuckwits when it all comes crashing down.
Provide your own narrative, stick with it if it is correct, and brave the storm. Hardest challenge will, as usual, come from inside Labour.
Then be in the perfect position to call the other side fuckwits when it all comes crashing down.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
#crab4pm2020
As much as I hate to agree with it, Crab made a valid point in the run-up to the Labour elections that Corbyn's viewpoint is too easy to dismantle, and could potentially do more damage to the left in the long run.
I'm hoping that it doesn't, but I doubt it highly. Particularly if Cameron puts airstrikes before the Commons again.
Coriolanus
Banned
You'll get your job as Chancellor of Exchequer and you'll like it, mister.
CyclopsRock
Member
I dunno what we can do. It's not like we can create a dialogue with these people, who simultaneously sell captured children as sex slaves *and* refer to Parisian's as prostitutes. And this has been going on far longer than France's intervention in Syria. It's not tit for tat a la Palestine or Northern Ireland - how do you end ISIS as a threat without ending ISIS?
I'm enjoying the American coverage of this btw. Apparantly Hollande was at a "soccer" game whatever that is.
I'm enjoying the American coverage of this btw. Apparantly Hollande was at a "soccer" game whatever that is.
Coriolanus
Banned
I need a new Chancellor of Exchequer. Any takers?
Jezbollah
Member
*sigh*, oh Crab :/
I don't know about you guys, but seeing all the Paris stuff has me conflicted and saddened.
I want to vent politically, but I don't know what concisely say.. All I know is that these politicians and leaders, who we do have a moan at, do have times where they have to really be statesmen. I guess this is one of those times, and that we see who we really need these people to be - people that the electorate trust as their leader.
Also, just wanted to chime in to say cheers to you all. I think we all have our places in the political spectrum of opinion, but I appreciate the opportunity for discussion with you all.
I don't know about you guys, but seeing all the Paris stuff has me conflicted and saddened.
I want to vent politically, but I don't know what concisely say.. All I know is that these politicians and leaders, who we do have a moan at, do have times where they have to really be statesmen. I guess this is one of those times, and that we see who we really need these people to be - people that the electorate trust as their leader.
Also, just wanted to chime in to say cheers to you all. I think we all have our places in the political spectrum of opinion, but I appreciate the opportunity for discussion with you all.
Dan Hodges, he of the former labour supporter now telegraph columnist proclaiming woe and despair at anything Labour does, has written a book. It's being serialised in the telegraph.
And oh my fucking god it's some of the worst writing ever.
Literally.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-Samantha-Camerons-picture-of-perfection.html
I presume he's trying to replicate the election books from the states like Double Down or Game Change, but he hasn't a hundreth of their talent. It's laughably, excruciatingly bad.
Edit: removed bad joke.
And oh my fucking god it's some of the worst writing ever.
Literally.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-Samantha-Camerons-picture-of-perfection.html
I presume he's trying to replicate the election books from the states like Double Down or Game Change, but he hasn't a hundreth of their talent. It's laughably, excruciatingly bad.
Edit: removed bad joke.
CyclopsRock
Member
Errr well the reason his articles got/get referenced are because he was one is the few people constantly saying the Tories would get a majority and doubling down on it. He was validated and basically all other political columnists proved to have analysed incorrectly. Not entirely sure that prose warrants his banishment from the thread.
So because he has crappy prose and you don't agree with him he shouldn't be talked about in this thread. Bollocks to that.
CyclopsRock
Member
He's right again
stewart lee's stuff in the guardian is ending me atm
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/sun-slams-corbyn-nod-gets-rise-out-of-me
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/sun-slams-corbyn-nod-gets-rise-out-of-me
I see on Twitter Simon Danczuk has attacked Corbyn in the Sun again (I can take a guess as to the contents).
Unfortunately even if members of the party weren't attacking him Corbyn is going to have a very, very rough time until the end of the year. The ex-Livingstone PR guy he hired a while back is going to be working overtime.
Unfortunately even if members of the party weren't attacking him Corbyn is going to have a very, very rough time until the end of the year. The ex-Livingstone PR guy he hired a while back is going to be working overtime.
There was a really interesting piece in the Private Eye where they were talking about Danczuk's deselection obsession. Turns out that he deselected councillors before for criticizing him on social media! If Corbyn were more like Danczuk, that would be bad new for him.
Also, Theresa May's coldness in these situations send chills up my spine.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...after-failing-to-prove-he-s-gay-a6735341.html
She personally intervened in the case of a South African student as well, trying to kick her out of the country even though her family lived in the UK.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Danczuk's entire schtick is that he panders to the right wing newspapers. He's a rent-a-quote for Tory papers looking for a Labour figure willing to criticise Labour. Same as Dan Hodges.
Fernando Fernandez
Member
The thing with Danczuk it's hard to take him seriously due to the increasing number of silly incidents outside of work, be it his actions on remembrance day or going ons with his wife - example
"Labour rebel Danczuk gives £30,000 job to stunning aide who claimed he was a sex pest: Row over assistant caused his first wife to throw his phone down a toilet
Questions have been raised about Ms Nazirs role paid for by the taxpayer as she previously began tribunal proceedings against Mr Danczuk for sexual harassment and constructive dismissal"
He's done some great work in the past with paedophilia cover-ups but his reputation as a right wing talk piece and his private life is what he's thought of currently.
"Labour rebel Danczuk gives £30,000 job to stunning aide who claimed he was a sex pest: Row over assistant caused his first wife to throw his phone down a toilet
Questions have been raised about Ms Nazirs role paid for by the taxpayer as she previously began tribunal proceedings against Mr Danczuk for sexual harassment and constructive dismissal"
He's done some great work in the past with paedophilia cover-ups but his reputation as a right wing talk piece and his private life is what he's thought of currently.
Dear God, the comments! There are people who apprarently genuinely don't realise he's joking when he says Corbyn is a 'Marxist sociopath hellbent on the destruction of British society' 0_o
Nicktendo86
Member
The Stop the War tweet on Friday has now been deleted I think so I can't link it, but it basically said Paris had it coming due to their actions. This is an organisation recently led by Corbyn who now consult with Labour over Syrian policy.
Anyone who thinks Corbyn will survive until the election is deluded.
Jezbollah
Member
Yeah, not exactly the best tweet in the world. It's also worth baring in the mind that organisations like Stop the War attract both people want to see an actual stop to tall the violence and suffering to people who see the west as the villains who run some kind of conspiracy. The former IMO is what I would identify as and the latter stance is just as naive and harmful as thinking that segmenting off all refugees is a good idea.
Corbyn, as far as I am aware, is the former. He equally condemns all war and violence and doesn't take the stance of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.
He's also raised a very good point:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-cause-yet-more-mayhem-and-loss-a6735916.html
EDIT: The full interview is very interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeVTKVKe0Ao
Corbyn, as far as I am aware, is the former. He equally condemns all war and violence and doesn't take the stance of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.
He's also raised a very good point:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-cause-yet-more-mayhem-and-loss-a6735916.html
EDIT: The full interview is very interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeVTKVKe0Ao
Corbyn continues to hand the right-wing press all the rope they could ever want to hang him with: Jeremy Corbyn says he is "not happy" with UK police or security services operating a "shoot-to-kill" policy in the event of a terror attack.
I get where he's coming from, I really do. But this is just such a catastrophic message for him to be sending out.
I get where he's coming from, I really do. But this is just such a catastrophic message for him to be sending out.
Nicktendo86
Member
He is also questioning the legality of the killing of Jihad John last week.
You may well say he had a point, but the timing of the comments and public opinion in general must be taken into account. Like I said, I would be amazed if he makes it to the next election.
You may well say he had a point, but the timing of the comments and public opinion in general must be taken into account. Like I said, I would be amazed if he makes it to the next election.
Chris Ship said:
Everything he says is the right - look at what happened last time we had a shoot to kill policy following a major terrorist incident. Unfortunately the optics of it in the current political climate are terrible, and it will feed the continuing press vendetta.
On the one hand I appreciate him trying to take a calm, measured view on things - on the other hand I wonder if he's now realising *why* the Labour Party shifted to the centre over the last 20 years, and if he has a bit more empathy for the former leaders he's happy castigated and attacked.
On the one hand I appreciate him trying to take a calm, measured view on things - on the other hand I wonder if he's now realising *why* the Labour Party shifted to the centre over the last 20 years, and if he has a bit more empathy for the former leaders he's happy castigated and attacked.
To call back to the start of my discussion with Crab last page, being a Pacifist and sticking to those ideals puts you in an absolutely horrible position optics wise after events like this. Whether that reflects the fact that being a pacifist and being an effective leader of the country are mutually exclusive or not is up for debate I guess.
FlammableD
Banned
I prefer the calm approach to the Let's dive in to an armed conflict without thinking approach
Nicktendo86
Member
I mean, I actually can't get my head around it. 3 days after armed men slaughtered over 100 people in France, the leader of HM Official Opposition has said the answer to an ongoing terrorist threat is neighbourhood policing.
It's getting to the stage where its not funny anymore.
It's getting to the stage where its not funny anymore.
If you have a terrorist on the street mowing down members of the public with an AK you shoot to kill. You can't rule it out entirely it leaves the police helpless.
What happened to JCdM was a fucking tragedy (and the covering of asses was a disgrace) but there are situations where a terrorist on the loose simply has to go down.
Also as an aside. Guido is also going at JC full guns for his stance on whether killing Jihadi John was legal. When asked he said "I question that."
That's not what a shoot to kill policy means. That's current policy *now*. We don't need any change of policy for that, the current armed response units would do that. Unless Corbyn has said something outside of the quoted sections, our current policy is fully capable of dealing with terrorists with AK 47/p roaming high streets as much as anyone can. That's the scenario we practise and model for in London.
A shoot to kill policy means JCdM incidents where the security agencies shoot people without the suspect shooting the hell out of people. It means killing on suspicion rather than direct threat of loss of life.
Jezbollah
Member
The JCdM incident should never have happened, the fact it did and the inquiry and lessons learned because of it means it'll likely never happen again thankfully.
Our standard police are unarmed. The only armed police we have are stationed near major transport hubs and areas of security. If an incident like what happened in Paris were to occur, then the standard framework that our armed police response units would employ would kick in. They have been called upon on numerous occasions since 7/7. They do a bloody good job in deciding what force is necessary, and you have statistics to back that up.
You can be a pacifist all you want, but like all personal opinions, you need to employ common sense. Any serving armed policeman would not stand by and let a gunman go to town on unarmed citizens with an automatic weapon. They would target the gunman against a non-shoot-to-kill framework, would be supported by his unit, superiors, the public, politicians and everyone else.
So JC, you might not be happy with a shoot to kill policy. But saying such a thing on national tv while candles are still lit in makeshift memorials not far from where you stand does not do you any favours.
Our standard police are unarmed. The only armed police we have are stationed near major transport hubs and areas of security. If an incident like what happened in Paris were to occur, then the standard framework that our armed police response units would employ would kick in. They have been called upon on numerous occasions since 7/7. They do a bloody good job in deciding what force is necessary, and you have statistics to back that up.
You can be a pacifist all you want, but like all personal opinions, you need to employ common sense. Any serving armed policeman would not stand by and let a gunman go to town on unarmed citizens with an automatic weapon. They would target the gunman against a non-shoot-to-kill framework, would be supported by his unit, superiors, the public, politicians and everyone else.
So JC, you might not be happy with a shoot to kill policy. But saying such a thing on national tv while candles are still lit in makeshift memorials not far from where you stand does not do you any favours.
Coriolanus
Banned
Obama's refusal to deploy ground troops + Corbyn's support for UN action will most likely shield him from the brunt of it.
Still bad optics, obv, but it's harder to say if adopting a stance that would be seen as a betrayal of his previous stances would be the smart move, given that he most certainly shouldn't be worried about what will happen 5 years from now.
Still bad optics, obv, but it's harder to say if adopting a stance that would be seen as a betrayal of his previous stances would be the smart move, given that he most certainly shouldn't be worried about what will happen 5 years from now.
Nicktendo86
Member
Bet tonight's PLP meeting is interesting
Nicktendo86
Member
Tweet from Eleanor Garnier of the BBC
#savejezza
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