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UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves

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W

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Farage definitely has it coming. Notice how quiet he's been?

Willing to bet a lot of UKIP/Brexit is funded by the tax-evading class.
 
F

f0rk

Member
I think Labour has passed from looking like they know Cameron has something dodgy hidden away to looking desperate to find something that will stick.

I mean, he's rich, we get it. How he influences EU policy is much more damaging but Corbyn seems more concerned with settling down on the sofa with a cup of tea and all the PM's tax returns from the last 100 years.
 
M

Maledict

Member
The thing that is annoying me more than any of this tax stuff is quite simple.

Where is Labour on the European vote?

I'm plugged into their networks. My job means I have a large amount of contact with them, and yet...nothing from central office. I am really worried we will vote to leave the EU, and a big part of that will be put down to Corbyn not mobilizing Labour and not using the party to push the vote that the vast, vast majority of MPs want.

I was never someone who thought he might make it work, but honestly he has been more of a disaster than even I anticipated.
 
F

Fernando Fernandez

Member
Corbyn went into detail about it on Marr. Maybe that's the start but he's been letting Alan Johnson deal with it up to now. The problem with the EU exit vote is that many of the voters Labour lost at the last election are those that are voting for Brexit.
 
E

Empty

Member
Maledict said:
The thing that is annoying me more than any of this tax stuff is quite simple.

Where is Labour on the European vote?

I'm plugged into their networks. My job means I have a large amount of contact with them, and yet...nothing from central office. I am really worried we will vote to leave the EU, and a big part of that will be put down to Corbyn not mobilizing Labour and not using the party to push the vote that the vast, vast majority of MPs want.

I was never someone who thought he might make it work, but honestly he has been more of a disaster than even I anticipated.
Click to expand...

corbyn's strategy is entirely deliberate imo

he's actually historically very euro-sceptic. he does not want to make a pro-european union case, he just knows that being anti-europe is a disastrous position to be as leader of the labour party*. so he's publicly pro-europe but doing nothing to help the cause.

*unlike stuff like the trident vote, which his mp's oppose but the members keeping him in power support, a huge percentage of labour members are pro-europe as well as the mp's which is very tricky for him

he's quite incompetent but he's successfully having his cake and eating it too on this issue
 
T

tomtom94

Member
QuicheFontaine said:
The poll-of-polls is showing that leave and remain, like R&B singer Lemar, right about now are 50/50.

So my question is, where is the Brexit OT? Did no-one have dibs on that? There's really not long to go now!
Click to expand...

We should definitely have an official referendum thread rather than bumping Tak3n's every time, possibly once the purdah period starts?
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
Maledict said:
The thing that is annoying me more than any of this tax stuff is quite simple.

Where is Labour on the European vote?

I'm plugged into their networks. My job means I have a large amount of contact with them, and yet...nothing from central office. I am really worried we will vote to leave the EU, and a big part of that will be put down to Corbyn not mobilizing Labour and not using the party to push the vote that the vast, vast majority of MPs want.

I was never someone who thought he might make it work, but honestly he has been more of a disaster than even I anticipated.
Click to expand...
It's a pretty open secret that Corbyn is pretty anti-EU, he is probably doing the very bare minimum that he has to. I believe he is making one speech on the matter, just one, which is extraordinary really.

This whole tax thing has been insane. I suppose 'Man makes investments, pays tax on investments' isn't a very sexy headline but the pure vitriol and bile poured onto Cameron has been embarrassing. He's done nothing, literally nothing wrong except mishandle his PR.

Interesting that Corbyn has STILL not released his tax return, although he sad he would six weeks ago I believe. Apparently the delay is down to his paper filing system, we will see. Interesting as well that he said on Marr yesterday that he hasn't asked his shadow cabinet whether they have any off-shore holdings! Maybe concentrate on your own side before prattling on about others first. I mean, wanting journalists to release their tax returns? Seriously?
 
Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
tomtom94 said:
We should definitely have an official referendum thread rather than bumping Tak3n's every time, possibly once the purdah period starts?
Click to expand...

Good idea. When is that?

I don't mind doing it btw, if no one else wants to. But I'm pretty blatantly pro-Brexit, so I thought maybe someone neutral would be better?
 
K

Kelthink

Member
Nicktendo86 said:
Interesting that Corbyn has STILL not released his tax return, although he sad he would six weeks ago I believe. Apparently the delay is down to his paper filing system, we will see. Interesting as well that he said on Marr yesterday that he hasn't asked his shadow cabinet whether they have any off-shore holdings! Maybe concentrate on your own side before prattling on about others first. I mean, wanting journalists to release their tax returns? Seriously?
Click to expand...

What's been revealed in the Panama files about Corbyn or his close family members?
 
R

ruttyboy

Member
Beefy said:
Then why did he look so bad when asked about it? Is he simply shit at answering questions?
Click to expand...

Because for a moment he thought they said 'offplanet' rather than 'offshore'.

If they ever manage to check his holdings on the Lizard homeworld, oh boy!
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
Kelthink said:
What's been revealed in the Panama files about Corbyn or his close family members?
Click to expand...

I'm not accusing him of having off shore holdings on which he has paid all UK tax due as Cameron has, I am wondering why he is demanding more and more info from others whilst not providing his own despite promising to do so.
 
Jezbollah

Jezbollah

Member
ruttyboy said:
Because for a moment he thought they said 'offplanet' rather than 'offshore'.

If they ever manage to check his holdings on the Lizard homeworld, oh boy!
Click to expand...

lol. Now I have got visions of Osborne appearing in V

(does anyone remember V?)

Re Referendum thread - it's most certainly needed - I think that we're going to be talking a lot in this thread about the local elections soon - a separate one for the big Ref would be worthwhile. Happy to help out too.
 
K

kmag

Member
Who is honestly bothered by all this tax nonsense?

Watching Dave squirm a bit is moderately amusing, as is the sheer delight in the right wing press as they give him a bit of a kicking. If anything his Jimmy Carr comments are the most problematic thing, it's a bit rich to give it laldy to some smug comedian about tax avoidance when you know your family business is essentially tax avoidance.

Honestly just make all MP's and prospective candidates publish a tax return for the last 5 years.
 
J

JonathanEx

Member
I'm not even sure why we really even need their tax returns, I'm just finding the whole back and forth YOU FIRST NO YOU WELL WHY HAVEN'T YOU a bit pathetic.
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
kmag said:
Who is honestly bothered by all this tax nonsense?

Watching Dave squirm a bit is moderately amusing, as is the sheer delight in the right wing press as they give him a bit of a kicking. If anything his Jimmy Carr comments are the most problematic thing, it's a bit rich to give it laldy to some smug comedian about tax avoidance when you know your family business is essentially tax avoidance.

Honestly just make all MP's and prospective candidates publish a tax return for the last 5 years.
Click to expand...

Has it been confirmed that his father's company was involved with any tax avoidance?

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...wyer-ian-camerons-investment-fund-was-not-tax
 
W

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
jimbobsmells said:
Looking forward to this. I genuinely can't make up my mind on it yet, and the obvious paper / media bias for both positions isn't helping. I just want impartial facts FFS.
Click to expand...

The problem is, there aren't facts only speculation. Leaving the EU would be incredibly hard to predict.

The best way to look at it is to evaluate what the EU does and whether you think this is moral/effective.

Personally, I think the best argument for leaving the EU would be a government that showed a concerted interest in protecting the rights of its people, promoting an equal society and economy, or even a general level of economic competence. We haven't had a government who does that for a long, long time, so in that regard the EU is a positive. It protects our human rights far better than our government does,
 
Jezbollah

Jezbollah

Member
Cameron currently addressing the Commons. Osborne has published his tax returns.

EDIT: And so has Corbyn - dated five days after the deadline..
 
R

ruttyboy

Member
I don't understand the purpose of publishing tax returns? Surely you wouldn't put your secret offshore assets on your tax return, I mean isn't that the entire point, to shield them from the eyes of HMRC?
 
Jezbollah

Jezbollah

Member
ruttyboy said:
I don't understand the purpose of publishing tax returns? Surely you wouldn't put your secret offshore assets on your tax return, I mean isn't that the entire point, to shield them from the eyes of HMRC?
Click to expand...

I believe you have to declare such interests in parliamentary framework when becoming an MP.
 
T

tomtom94

Member
ruttyboy said:
I don't understand the purpose of publishing tax returns? Surely you wouldn't put your secret offshore assets on your tax return, I mean isn't that the entire point, to shield them from the eyes of HMRC?
Click to expand...

It's a gish-gallop. You publish a load of largely irrelevant and boring information that forces your opponents to waste time digging into it to try and find something dodgy, while publicly claiming that it exculpates you since nobody else is going to bother looking.

Apparently someone called Cameron "dodgy Dave" and was thrown out of Parliament? Who says politics have to be boring.
 
F

Fernando Fernandez

Member
Nicktendo86 said:
It's a pretty open secret that Corbyn is pretty anti-EU, he is probably doing the very bare minimum that he has to. I believe he is making one speech on the matter, just one, which is extraordinary really.

This whole tax thing has been insane. I suppose 'Man makes investments, pays tax on investments' isn't a very sexy headline but the pure vitriol and bile poured onto Cameron has been embarrassing. He's done nothing, literally nothing wrong except mishandle his PR.

Interesting that Corbyn has STILL not released his tax return, although he sad he would six weeks ago I believe. Apparently the delay is down to his paper filing system, we will see. Interesting as well that he said on Marr yesterday that he hasn't asked his shadow cabinet whether they have any off-shore holdings! Maybe concentrate on your own side before prattling on about others first. I mean, wanting journalists to release their tax returns? Seriously?
Click to expand...

For me this was the important bit

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ffshore-trusts-panama-papers-eu-a6972311.html
 
U

Uzzy

Member
tomtom94 said:
It's a gish-gallop. You publish a load of largely irrelevant and boring information that forces your opponents to waste time digging into it to try and find something dodgy, while publicly claiming that it exculpates you since nobody else is going to bother looking.

Apparently someone called Cameron "dodgy Dave" and was thrown out of Parliament? Who says politics have to be boring.
Click to expand...

I didn't even have to look to know it was Dennis Skinner.

Fernando Fernandez said:
For me this was the important bit

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ffshore-trusts-panama-papers-eu-a6972311.html
Click to expand...

Oh but of course it's perfectly legal and moral for the rich to engage in tax avoidance. It makes sense that anyone with £200,000 to give to their child should do that well before they die, to avoid that nasty inheritance tax business. Further, it's perfectly fine for companies to shuffle their profits around the world to tiny islands or Luxembourg to avoid all taxes, that's just sound business and if we did anything against it'd that'd drive business away. Anyone saying otherwise just hates the rich, the most put upon minority, and if we all hate the rich we'll be left with nothing but low-achievers in high office.

Now, as we're all in this together, lets discuss taking benefits away from disabled people.
 
Jezbollah

Jezbollah

Member
My best mate is a maintenance engineer. His sister is a primary school teacher. They were in the fortunate position of being able to be gifted the money that was a result of the sale of their late grandparents house (some £150k).

They are not high earners by their own admission. But they were gifted the same kind of figures we're seeing published about Cameron. The notion that it's only the super rich that get these kind of gifts is to me somewhat misleading.
 
R

ruttyboy

Member
Dan27 said:
I believe you have to declare such interests in parliamentary framework when becoming an MP.
Click to expand...

You have to declare your secret assets that you've intentionally hidden? Publishing tax returns will achieve nothing outside of mild interest in just how rich certain people are.

The only way we'll ever find out if they are 'dodgy' is through leaks like the Panama Papers.

tomtom94 said:
It's a gish-gallop. You publish a load of largely irrelevant and boring information that forces your opponents to waste time digging into it to try and find something dodgy, while publicly claiming that it exculpates you since nobody else is going to bother looking.
Click to expand...

Seems more obvious, thanks.
 
T

tomtom94

Member
Jezbollah

Jezbollah

Member
Personally I do not think it's unreasonable to want each leader of a political party, the chancellor and shadow chancellor to publish their tax returns.

But there is a point where it gets counter productive. The fact the SNP, Greens etc have also done risks Farage being made to look isolated - even if he does raise a good point.
 
W

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Farage is exactly the kind of sleazy character you would want to see the tax returns of. For example, nobody cares - besides out of consistency - for Corbyn's because he's too feckless to con anyone.
 
K

kmag

Member
Dan27 said:
Personally I do not think it's unreasonable to want each leader of a political party, the chancellor and shadow chancellor to publish their tax returns.

But there is a point where it gets counter productive. The fact the SNP, Greens etc have also done risks Farage being made to look isolated - even if he does raise a good point.
Click to expand...

Nah, if you want to pontificate about what people should do, i.e be a politician then you should disclose your financial affairs including your tax returns. We currently have a system where some information is disclosed to the Commons on what is essentially an honour based system, the publication of tax returns by every MP would allow some rigour into that honour based system.

If that means there's less bankers, businessmen and people with complicated financial history becoming politician, then I'll put up the bunting.

After all what's the favourite refrain of the politicians who want to intrude on the public's right to privacy, if you've got nothing to hide...
 
K

kmag

Member
f0rk said:
Why do you want less businessmen to be politicians?
Click to expand...

Outside of the career professional politician (Oxbridge education PPE -> Researcher -> maybe a thinktank -> MP), and lawyers, they're probably the next best represented group in parliament. Anything which increases diversity in a ruling chamber is a good thing.

I'd also ban Directorships for sitting MP's, the duties of care of a Director (as defined by sections 171 to 177 of the Companies Act, particularly section 172) are incompatible in my opinion with their supposed role as legislators.
 
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