Professor Beef
Banned
GGs
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
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Professor Beef
Banned
And you play Doom. Your point?
Karsticles
Member
Wait, Zissou plays Doom and he's complaining about launchers that are too good? Goddamn. Doom has one of the best launchers in the game and it's only -1 on block!
Also, I hope people realize that by reducing the active frames a bit, you're making s.S safer. Folks aren't thinking their criticisms through all the way on this one.
Also, I hope people realize that by reducing the active frames a bit, you're making s.S safer. Folks aren't thinking their criticisms through all the way on this one.
It's not that good!
Yeah, I know it's safe, but nobody smart would use it over hard kick during block strings anyway. It's not a great anti-air or anything!
Professor Beef
Banned
Boo hoo.
Karsticles
Member
It hits on BOTH FUCKING SIDES. Do you know what I would sacrifice to give Dormammu a safe move that hits on BOTH FUCKING SIDES? It's the greatest "fuck you" to teleporters in the game next to Hidden Missiles.
Professor Beef
Banned
You mean his jump S?
Karsticles
Member
I said against teleporters. While j.S sometimes gets teleporters, usually a beam comes and fwaps me in the head, giving my opponent a full combo anyway. :-(
Against bad Vergils, yeah, I can j.S all day and they eventually teleport into it for who-knows-why. Probably because it's the only approach they know.
Professor Beef
Banned
No you didn't. I just quoted you.
Karsticles
Member
After a lot of thinking, I decided that I'd prefer to keep Dormammu's launcher the same as it is right now. I keep running scenarios through my head, and it either becomes a little too good or loses a little too much depending on how we change it. So, let's focus on giving 0D3C and 0D0C uses if everyone is okay with the other changes.
Dormammu:
*j.M hit float properties returned to Vanilla status (no knockback).
*3D0C is now +1 on block.
*0D3C now slows characters by 25% and is unblockable; previous effect removed; now OTGs.
*Ground and air throw range extended slightly; air throws no longer occasionally cause opponents to bounce off of a wall.
*c.M returned to Vanilla status; still chains into H inputs.
*0D1C and 0D2C now hit OTG.
*s.H frontal hitbox made slightly larger (c.L, s.H always hits).
*Damage on normals reduced by 10% across the board.
*0D0C startup is 10 frames; hitbox increased slightly.
*Flame Carpet no longer hits low.
Assists: Purification (Tracking), Dark Matter, Dark Spell (L)
Iron Fist:
*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.
*Chi L, M, and H recovery reduced to 10; armor changed to frames 1-11.
*Twin Snakes is now jump-cancelable.
*Lotus Whip is now +2 on block.
Assists: Rising Fang, Crescent Heel, Wall of K’un-Lun
IRON FIST HAS 11 CHANGES FYI. I RECOMMEND WE DITCH THE LAUNCHER OR DOUBLE JUMP CHANGE.
Super-Skrull:
*Says “He loves you!” again during Inferno.
*Meteor Smash assist causes a soft knockdown; hitbox reduced slightly from point version; no OTG; no overhead.
*Orbital Grudge now -1 on block.
*Skrull Torch no longer makes Super-Skrull prone until landing; full startup invincibility.
*Stone Smite gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 14-58.
*Stone Dunk gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 16-42.
*Brutal Pile Bunker is now -2 on block.
*Flame Kick gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 12-52.
*Inferno damage reduced slightly.
*df.H hitstun increased (blockstun unchanged).
Assists: Tenderizer L, Orbital Grudge M x Fatal Buster, Meteor Smash (Tracking)
Nova:
*Air throw range reduced considerably.
*Timing for comboing off of throws made more strict.
*j.H hitbox reduced slightly.
*Human Rocket blockstun reduced (hitstun unchanged).
*Red health boosts only occur when S is inputted along with the normal command input; red health lost capped at 400,000.
*c.L is now +1 on block.
*Energy Javelin (assist) causes a soft knockdown.
Assists: Energy Javelin, Centurion Rush M, Gravimetric Pulse H
I AM INCLINED TO LEAVE HIS J.H UNCHANGED, BUT NERF THE THROWS.
Dormammu:
*j.M hit float properties returned to Vanilla status (no knockback).
*3D0C is now +1 on block.
*0D3C now slows characters by 25% and is unblockable; previous effect removed; now OTGs.
*Ground and air throw range extended slightly; air throws no longer occasionally cause opponents to bounce off of a wall.
*c.M returned to Vanilla status; still chains into H inputs.
*0D1C and 0D2C now hit OTG.
*s.H frontal hitbox made slightly larger (c.L, s.H always hits).
*Damage on normals reduced by 10% across the board.
*0D0C startup is 10 frames; hitbox increased slightly.
*Flame Carpet no longer hits low.
Assists: Purification (Tracking), Dark Matter, Dark Spell (L)
Iron Fist:
*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.
*Chi L, M, and H recovery reduced to 10; armor changed to frames 1-11.
*Twin Snakes is now jump-cancelable.
*Lotus Whip is now +2 on block.
Assists: Rising Fang, Crescent Heel, Wall of K’un-Lun
IRON FIST HAS 11 CHANGES FYI. I RECOMMEND WE DITCH THE LAUNCHER OR DOUBLE JUMP CHANGE.
Super-Skrull:
*Says “He loves you!” again during Inferno.
*Meteor Smash assist causes a soft knockdown; hitbox reduced slightly from point version; no OTG; no overhead.
*Orbital Grudge now -1 on block.
*Skrull Torch no longer makes Super-Skrull prone until landing; full startup invincibility.
*Stone Smite gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 14-58.
*Stone Dunk gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 16-42.
*Brutal Pile Bunker is now -2 on block.
*Flame Kick gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 12-52.
*Inferno damage reduced slightly.
*df.H hitstun increased (blockstun unchanged).
Assists: Tenderizer L, Orbital Grudge M x Fatal Buster, Meteor Smash (Tracking)
Nova:
*Air throw range reduced considerably.
*Timing for comboing off of throws made more strict.
*j.H hitbox reduced slightly.
*Human Rocket blockstun reduced (hitstun unchanged).
*Red health boosts only occur when S is inputted along with the normal command input; red health lost capped at 400,000.
*c.L is now +1 on block.
*Energy Javelin (assist) causes a soft knockdown.
Assists: Energy Javelin, Centurion Rush M, Gravimetric Pulse H
I AM INCLINED TO LEAVE HIS J.H UNCHANGED, BUT NERF THE THROWS.
Um, you quoted half of what I wrote...read the rest of the post for context.
shaowebb
Member
I covered that, but no one seems to want to hear of any Iron Fist with a damage nerf. Give him an air dash and a roll. Rolls go through projectiles and can be used for great mixups off of lockdown assists. Air dash puts you in as a way to punish zoning quickly or to capitolize quickly off of a beam assist and his crossup game is sick. THESE are the main things i want and to get them I know he would need the damage nerf because with them he is effectively a real character who will mix you up.
Screw everything else if you got to, but geez give him these so he can get a hit. Play HH mode for a bit and tell me after 5 rounds of each which you would prefer...Iron fist with an airdash or with a double jump. I've done this and believe me it was no contest which made the biggest impact on his game. Just try it...its amazing. The setups and teams you can use just with that change alone is worth it. Now think of what Frank's roll would do...you feel me now? You know you want it.
Professor Beef
Banned
I still don't like giving Dorm a slowdown move for free.
SolarPowered
Member
If a character is bottom five you should just give them twelve change slots. Easier to set them apart for Capcom. You gotta drive the point home with a jackhammer sometimes.
shaowebb
Member
then slot twelve goes to air dash or roll. I'll take either but I'd prefer a roll...;_;
Karsticles
Member
The #1 rule is no new animations. So a roll is 100% out of the question. Entirely.
Nothing about Iron Fist's character suggests that he should be able to air dash. We're not in a position to fundamentally change his movement and know how that would impact the game. I really think he is an underrated character who just needs to be better at opening people up and converting. His pressure is just as good as Wolverine's, but without spending meter for Berserker Charge. He just has trouble getting in.
Then suggest another 0D3C that's useful. I've said several times that I'm not attached to it, but it's all I could think of that would be worth using.
No rule changes. We just need to be more thoughtful about our suggestions if we can't get it down to 10. Any character can be made good with 10 changes.
One of our changes is a change just for scrubs. I'm cool with it, but it's not needed. The Twin Lotus, Double Jump, and Lotus Whiff buffs could all leave without significantly harming the character. We should eliminate one of those four changes and move on. Since all four are Dahbomb's suggestions (IIRC), I especially value hearing his opinion.
Professor Beef
Banned
I don't even know what that move is.
SolarPowered
Member
New animation?
Karsticles
Member
"STIGMA!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEhC0yvh81k&t=04m20s
It locks out jumps on the character for 600 frames. Dahbomb wanted to make it unblockable, so be glad I said "no".
I think changing it to a slow gives it an effect that is similar in spirit (reducing mobility), and making it unblockable would make it worth considering in the neutral without making it ridiculous.
Professor Beef
Banned
Oh THAT'S what it does. Yeah, fuck giving Dorm a free Slow. Maybe make it unblockable, but decrease the penalty time? In general, it doesn't seem like there's any reason to use it over his other, more damaging spells. Why not just leave it as-is?
The Mango Sentinel
Member
What if he could special cancel flame carpet but only into blue spells?
Also did anyone ever comment on the shorter jump foriron ffist?
Also did anyone ever comment on the shorter jump foriron ffist?
shaowebb
Member
I dont care if its a sidestep dash if you want to get lazy and not do a single new animation, just make him have a go behind that passes through projectiles like Frank's roll.
Professor Beef
Banned
Actually yeah, that sounds better. Anything is better than giving Dorm a Slow debuff for no cost.
Ditch the Chi hyper armor change for Chi being able to chain into Rekkas. That is a way more skillful and interesting option than putting more armor on Chi itself. This way on reaction you can armor someone's Helm Breaker and cancel into a combo Rekka. No need to tinker with the frame properties of the Chi.
Don't change Nova j.H if you are gonna nerf his throw.
Don't change Nova j.H if you are gonna nerf his throw.
Karsticles
Member
Can we please focus on figuring out a good 0D3C for Dormammu? It really needs to be worth using.
You can't leave it as-is because no one uses it, and the entire point of Dormammu's character is the meta game surrounding his Dark Spells. It's a major oversight that 0D3C is not worth using.
I think Chi needs to be faster for the neutral game. It should be safer for him to do so he is more interested in buffing himself from full-screen.
Unblockable with less penalty time is WAY TOO GOOD. You guys have to think about this stuff more. For example, Dr. Doom can't even move reasonable against Dormammu without air dashing. If you make 0D3C ground and be unblockable, Dr. Doom is 100% Dormammu's bitch instead of 85% Dormammu's bitch. If you reduce the time, it's not worth using; it's only 300 frames as-is.
You can't leave it as-is because no one uses it, and the entire point of Dormammu's character is the meta game surrounding his Dark Spells. It's a major oversight that 0D3C is not worth using.
Show me a video of him following up from his level 3. I think it is needed.
You could make 0D3C OTG and it would still never get used. Again, compare it to his other options. The Iron Fist short jump would be a major mechanics change. It would be cool, but there's no chance Capcom would go with it.
These are the same change; they're all changes to Chi.
I think Chi needs to be faster for the neutral game. It should be safer for him to do so he is more interested in buffing himself from full-screen.
Professor Beef
Banned
The only thing worse than a bad move is giving a move un-needed properties in the sake of usefulness.
Dragon Prey is NOT his LVL3 lol. Dragon Prey is his crumple stun.
Chi does not need to be faster in the neutral when you can chain Rekka into it AND out of it. Right now you can only chain into it but being able to chain out of it fixes a lot of his issues like making the armor on his Chi useful, keeping Chi refreshed at all times and frame trapping.
Edit: Keep confusing Dragon Tail with Prey plz ignore.
Chi does not need to be faster in the neutral when you can chain Rekka into it AND out of it. Right now you can only chain into it but being able to chain out of it fixes a lot of his issues like making the armor on his Chi useful, keeping Chi refreshed at all times and frame trapping.
Edit: Keep confusing Dragon Tail with Prey plz ignore.
Karsticles
Member
The entire point of Dormammu's game is these spells. It's kind of important that they're useful. That's why 2D1C and 1D2C got ridiculous buffs in Ultimate. No one used his Dark Spells except for the occasional 3D0C because the risk-reward ratio was too high. Now 3/4 are used, and it should be a goal for 4/4 to be used. It's just good character design, like how we try and make every move useful for every character. It's the same reason Arthur got a buff to Cross Slash.
Dragon's Touch is the crumple move. Dragon's Prey is the level 3. I've looked this up in the guide 4 times because you're making me question my sanity.
I hope you have suggestions ready for Haggar. I know I have some fun ones.
We made the c.L hit low, and I said his pressure is good, not his mix-ups. I think Iron Fist has great pressure.
What do you even want changed besides Rising Fang being made air OK?
The Mango Sentinel
Member
The jump height would be a major mechanics change? Don't characters already have different jump heights?
Karsticles
Member
The suggestion wasn't to change his jump height, but to give him a separate "hop" with a KoF input.
NP. Most of the new characters have moves that aren't intuitive. They didn't do a good job naming a lot of this stuff. Especially Ghost Rider's whips. Who knows what most of those are called...
Professor Beef
Banned
Just because you want to use every single move to be useful doesn't mean it is good character design. If you like using every single move a character has, then boy do I have the character for you. His name is "Dante," and he's from this series called "Devil May Cry..."
Jesus christ Iron Fist is such a bad character that even at 11 changes it's not enough.
I would take back the Lotus Whip +2 on block change. While I think it would be really useful for him, it's something he can live without. The rest of the changes I would argue he absolutely needs especially the Chi chaining into Rekkas.
For Dormammu 3C, my latest suggestion is this:
*OTG capable
*Not unblockable
*Roots for 5 seconds
*Roots disables both movement and jumping
*Improved start up and guaranteed on first frame
I would take back the Lotus Whip +2 on block change. While I think it would be really useful for him, it's something he can live without. The rest of the changes I would argue he absolutely needs especially the Chi chaining into Rekkas.
For Dormammu 3C, my latest suggestion is this:
*OTG capable
*Not unblockable
*Roots for 5 seconds
*Roots disables both movement and jumping
*Improved start up and guaranteed on first frame
Karsticles
Member
Yes, every move being useful is good character design.
Dormammu is an extreme case: he has to work to get access to some of his moves. It's especially stupid in his case if he has to work to gain access to moves that aren't worth using. It makes as much sense as Turnabout, Dark Phoenix, and Lvl 5 Frank West not being worth using. These are game-changing states he has to work to just like they do, but he does so through a different means. That each one is useful is important to the character. Even if you don't agree, Capcom clearly does.
Disables all movement? Goddamn man, that's far worse than my 25% slow change. -_- You don't want Haggar to just sit and take chip damage for 5 seconds, do you?
SolarKnight
Member
Tbf, useless moves are not good character design either.
Poltergust
Member
You mentioned earlier that 0D3C has 15 frame start-up, Karst. The thing is, I don't like having a full-screen and unblockable move come out that quickly. For someone to react to it in time, they'd need to actually do it in 10 frames since characters have 4 pre-jump start-up frames.
Either make 0D3C a heck of a lot slower or make it not unblockable. Otherwise it's a free debuff move for Dormammu.
Either make 0D3C a heck of a lot slower or make it not unblockable. Otherwise it's a free debuff move for Dormammu.
Poltergust
Member
That's way too big of a debuff for something you can combo into and not spend any meter on.
Karsticles
Member
It's not free, it has an opportunity cost. Let me put it this way:
Imagine that Phoenix Wright had only good evidence. Now, also imagine that somehow, you could choose which evidence he picks up. I'm sure we can both agree that in the current state of his evidence, the same few pieces would be chosen, because they're very good (tracking projectiles, 3-way shot, beam maybe), while others are crap in comparison (parabola shot, the one that just sits there). It would be desirable to make all of Wright's evidence worthwhile if it weren't random so you would choose difference evidence in different situations. Tailoring your evidence to the matchup would be part of the character. That's Dormammu. If you make 0D3C bad, it's just not used, and it hurts the character design.
We're trying to remove 1-player stuff, remember? Even Spiral Swords lets you do more than sit and take chip for 5 seconds.
But that means it's unblockable...
Alright, to help us out, I'm going to talk about the holes in Dormammu's Dark Spells.
Professor Beef
Banned
Pardon me for laughing EXTREMELY loudly by you comparing Dormammu to Frank/Jean/Wright. Heaven forbid a zoner has to work to do his job, right?
I was talking about in his current state, I should have clarified I guess. Mix-ups are part of pressure... they aren't mutually exclusive. Iron Fist does NOT have good pressure, I don't know where you get this impression from at all, especially in a game with Zero, Vergil, Viper, Magneto, Wolverine, Lvl 4 Frank West. Even Dante.
As for what I want changed from him not much besides Rising Fang Air OK and being able to Chain 3 rekkas max + Chi at the end of a rekka string.
You either get immobilized or you take however much damage his triple spells do in a combo, which normally kill. It's opportunity cost like he said and he still has to land a hit for him to even use it.
You are still blocking and you can still attack!
Wait so now it's TOO good despite not being an unblockable? Would you say would always go over this than the other options?
At least we made progress, we went from "non unblockable 3C sucks" too "non unblockable" 3C is too good.
Professor Beef
Banned
To be honest, I don't really know why I'm arguing with a Dahbomb-level Dormammu fan when it comes to buffs. I blame myself, really.
Karsticles
Member
I swear you go out of your way to misread my posts.
And you completely ignore the numerous buffs I've said would be too good for him. Do you even read my posts, or do you just respond with preconceived notions repeatedly to bolster your self-confidence?
Pressure and mix-ups are separate. Ghost Rider has excellent pressure, terrible mix-ups.
It was mainly meant as a joke since I find this whole conversation rather amusing.
Iron Fist has OK pressure... he does not have great pressure at all.
His pressure is limited by the 3 chain limit on the Rekka. Once he's out of the limit his pressure is over. Normally speaking if you push block the last hit of his Rekka the pressure is almost always over. Compared to the top tiers it's just OK at best.
If he had a utility hyper he could cancel his last rekka into then his pressure would start to compare to Wolverine.
The main problem with IF is that nothing comes out of the pressure. You block it and you don't sweat. With Wolverine or really any good rushdown character they put you in pressure and then mix you up.... normally you get opened up before their pressure actually ends.
His pressure is limited by the 3 chain limit on the Rekka. Once he's out of the limit his pressure is over. Normally speaking if you push block the last hit of his Rekka the pressure is almost always over. Compared to the top tiers it's just OK at best.
If he had a utility hyper he could cancel his last rekka into then his pressure would start to compare to Wolverine.
The main problem with IF is that nothing comes out of the pressure. You block it and you don't sweat. With Wolverine or really any good rushdown character they put you in pressure and then mix you up.... normally you get opened up before their pressure actually ends.
No... that means Ghost Rider has good pressure without the need for mix-ups. And Ghost Rider does not have good pressure without an assist.