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[Dahbomb]

I think Nova's cr.L should be +1 on block. It's 6 frame start up, does not hit low, is not chainable and is -2 right now. I think this would really help him with his string game because all of his normal moves are really negative on block.

And Karst did you check my Iron Fist changes? I tapped out the 10 limit already and he still sucks... LOL!

 

[Frantic]

:-(

Haha, even with 16 active frames, it'd still be the most active launcher in the game.

I'm mainly suggesting it because if you tweak with the blockstun, you get funky values that Capcom doesn't seem to like(they hover in the 20-24 blockstun range for most everything, with the lower end being more common, and anything higher being extremely rare), and if you lower the recovery it becomes hard far a lot of characters to whiff punish. By lowering the active frames, you get the -4 on block, but also a decent chunk of time to whiff punish it instead of 7 frames of recovery.

 

[Zissou]

Why make the non-red health Nova specials require a two button input? Wouldn't it make more sense to make single attack button input always do the level one, and doing S+attk will do the red health version?

 

[Dahbomb]

Why make the non-red health Nova specials require a two button input? Wouldn't it make more sense to make single attack button input always do the level one, and doing S+attk will do the red health version?

Yeah I guess that makes more sense intuitively.

Frantic is right about the launcher stuff. You would need to adjust the active frames accordingly.


Karst's here are my Iron Fist changes. I tapped out on the 10 changes already lol!

IRON FIST

*Wall of Kun Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series

*Crescent Heel overhead does not bounce a standing opponent

*Canceling Volanic Roar before the final hit causes soft knockdown state

*Cr.L hits low now

*Launcher can hit in an anti air and juggle situation

*Can now double jump

*More untechable time after air throws so you have more time to pick up with Crescent Heel

*Invincibility on Iron Rage increased on start up; travels further for first hit

*Chi system reworked

Every Chi activation now also activates a specific counter

Every Chi now has an additional Rekka passive component

Attack Chi - Gains 20% damage, Rekkas now do 40% chip on block (up from the standard 35%), on counters to Low attacks instantly activates Dragons' Touch

Defense Chi - Gains 20% health, all Rekkas have 1 hit of armor, on counter to High attacks instantly activates Wall of Kun Lun.

Meter Chi - Gains 20% more meter, All Rekkas negate push block, on counter to Projectile attacks instantly activates Rising Fang

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Next time I play this game I want to play a point Akuma team.

I don't know why

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Why make the non-red health Nova specials require a two button input? Wouldn't it make more sense to make single attack button input always do the level one, and doing S+attk will do the red health version?

Agreed. You're juicing up the power, so an extra input in that scenario feels more right.

 

[Karsticles]

Veil of mist uses up a meter and locks meter gain. You want that stuff also on 3C?

I think what really has to happen is that there needs to be an additional benefit to using the root feature. Like meter loss over time, health drained over time, loss of red health.

I am just throwing out ideas here... We can make this work I know we can!

The changelog for Nova's red health mechanic stuff would look like this:

*LVL1 Gravimetric special moves can be used by inputting QCF + L/M/H + S which will not drain red health. LVL3 Gravimetric moves will not drain more than 400K red health.

I know you're throwing out ideas; that's what I tried to do and everyone made fun of me.

You just have to ask yourself, after thinking up any 0D3C suggestion:
"What does this do for Dormammu that 1D2C, 2D1C, and 3D0C don't, and would a Dormammu player really consider using this over other options?"

Thus far, I haven't seen any suggestions outside my own that make me say "yes" to the above.

I worded the Nova change like this:

Nova:
*Air throw range reduced considerably.
*Timing for comboing off of throws made more strict.
*j.H hitbox reduced slightly.
*Human Rocket blockstun reduced (hitstun unchanged).
*Red health boosts only occur when S is inputted along with the normal command input; red health lost capped at 400,000.
*c.L is now +1 on block.
*Energy Javelin (assist) causes a soft knockdown.

Assists: Energy Javelin, Centurion Rush M, Gravimetric Pulse H


Iron Fist:
*Crescent Heel assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of Kun Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*Crescent Heel overhead does not bounce a standing opponent
*Canceling Volanic Roar before the final hit causes soft knockdown state
*Cr.L hits low now
*Launcher can hit in an anti air and juggle situation
*Can now double jump
*More untechable time after air throws so you have more time to pick up with Crescent Heel
*Invincibility on Iron Rage increased on start up; travels further for first hit
*Chi system reworked
Every Chi activation now also activates a specific counter
Every Chi now has an additional Rekka passive component
Attack Chi - Gains 20% damage, Rekkas now do 40% chip on block (up from the standard 35%), on counters to Low attacks instantly activates Dragons' Touch
Defense Chi - Gains 20% health, all Rekkas have 1 hit of armor, on counter to High attacks instantly activates Wall of Kun Lun.
Meter Chi - Gains 20% more meter, All Rekkas negate push block, on counter to Projectile attacks instantly activates Rising Fang

Assists: Rising Fang, Crescent Heel, Wall of K’un-Lun


I won't have time to read the Iron Fist changes and think about them until later.

 

[Dahbomb]

No change on the Gravimetric Pulse H assist. It's a unique assist, you don't want to lose it... especially now with health loss capped a bit.

You should also specify that Javelin causes a soft knockdown as an assist.

Cr.L should be +1 on block.

In addition, I feel like you are double nerfing the j.H air throw OS. You are nerfing his air throw range but now also his j.H hit box. I feel like it only needs one nerf.

Wall of Kun Lun is a redundant assist when Rising Fang exist. There was no need to replace the crumple stun assist, you can probably improve it as a CC assist.

 

[Karsticles]

No change on the Gravimetric Pulse H assist. It's a unique assist, you don't want to lose it... especially now with health loss capped a bit.

You should also specify that Javelin causes a soft knockdown as an assist.

Cr.L should be +1 on block.

In addition, I feel like you are double nerfing the j.H air throw OS. You are nerfing his air throw range but now also his j.H hit box. I feel like it only needs one nerf.

Wall of Kun Lun is a redundant assist when Rising Fang exist. There was no need to replace the crumple stun assist.

The Wall of Kun-Lun and Rising Fang have different attributes. Wall of Kun-Lun has super armor and causes a hard knockdown. Rising Fang destroys projectiles and causes a soft knockdown. Both cause a wall bounce.

 

[Dahbomb]

There's no armor on WKL.

 

[Karsticles]

There's no armor on WKL.

The guide says otherwise.

 

[Dahbomb]

The guide says otherwise.

Well I guess SRK got it wrong then because I was looking at it to confirm and it's not listed there.

I guess we need an IF player here to confirm this. If it's an armored move then keep it as an assist. That actually sounds pretty good.

 

[Poltergust]

Dormammu:
*j.M hit float properties returned to Vanilla status (no knockback).
*3D0C is now +1 on block.
*0D3C now slows characters by 25% and is unblockable; previous effect removed; now OTGs.
*Ground and air throw range extended slightly.
*s.S -4 on block.
*0D1C and 0D2C now hit OTG.
*s.H frontal hitbox made slightly larger (c.L, s.H always hits).
*Damage on normals reduced by 10% across the board.
*0D0C startup is 10 frames; hitbox increased slightly.
*Flame Carpet no longer hits low.

Assists: Purification (Tracking), Dark Matter, Dark Spell (L)

I cannot agree with the bolded changes at all. Dormammu already gets way too many throws and has very easy follow-ups to them, and his launcher has too many active frames and too big of a hitbox to be that safe. Heck, I almost feel like we should decrease the frame advantage for his launcher, because I don't see that move get punished enough for what it does.

As for 3C0D, I think simply making the move hit OTG will be enough of a buff to it without any other changes. Being able to use it in a combo would lead to people using it more, and I don't think someone should get slowed-down that easily. Making a move that goes full-screen that quickly unblockable is a really bad idea.

 

[shaowebb]

Yeah I guess that makes more sense intuitively.

Frantic is right about the launcher stuff. You would need to adjust the active frames accordingly.


Karst's here are my Iron Fist changes. I tapped out on the 10 changes already lol!

IRON FIST

*Wall of Kun Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series

*Crescent Heel overhead does not bounce a standing opponent

*Canceling Volanic Roar before the final hit causes soft knockdown state

*Cr.L hits low now

*Launcher can hit in an anti air and juggle situation

*Can now double jump

*More untechable time after air throws so you have more time to pick up with Crescent Heel

*Invincibility on Iron Rage increased on start up; travels further for first hit

*Chi system reworked

Every Chi activation now also activates a specific counter

Every Chi now has an additional Rekka passive component

Attack Chi - Gains 20% damage, Rekkas now do 40% chip on block (up from the standard 35%), on counters to Low attacks instantly activates Dragons' Touch

Defense Chi - Gains 20% health, all Rekkas have 1 hit of armor, on counter to High attacks instantly activates Wall of Kun Lun.

Meter Chi - Gains 20% more meter, All Rekkas negate push block, on counter to Projectile attacks instantly activates Rising Fang

The bits I highlighted with his current damage would make him OP if you did them IMO. Double jump is great for air mobility and he needs that...no argument. HOWEVER, I do not feel that its safe giving Iron Fist a double jump because that effectively allows him to extend his air combos by a good margin. Consider that a wallbounce from raw wall of kun lun in your build could be converted by his proposed new launcher into an aerial combo then double jumped then put into the double super. Thats a bit much and that doesn't even include possible TAC combinations he could utilize or reset situations either. It doesn't even take into consideration the combos he could do into the wall bounce before all that...the damage would be too high. He could get in with a double jump, but it'd make him far too deadly at current damage output.

Also what in the hell...armor on EVERY Rekka? His pressure once inside is already ridiculous and if they manage to poke you high he auto counters into a wall bounce that will be convertible to full combo?! Thats too much man. Think about it...Arthur daggers and defense chi...he wave dashes in, never leaves and has the new improved overhead, extra low, and launcher along with double jump extensions...FAR TOO POWERFUL.

I love Iron Fist, but that'd be a guilt trip there because it'd make him insulting. Even the Attack chi idea is too much because a low poke is likely your best poke to get out since he doesn't have much to low trade with. And pushblock is already useless on him once he's inside with assists to back him...especially daggers which is still his best assist.

I like a lot of that, but you need some SERIOUS damage nerfing to allow stuff like that man. He's too strong to let have that many things on you.

There's no armor on WKL.

The guide says otherwise.

Well I guess SRK got it wrong then because I was looking at it to confirm and it's not listed there.

I guess we need an IF player here to confirm this. If it's an armored move then keep it as an assist. That actually sounds pretty good.

Pretty certain there is armor on Wall of K'un Lun. I haven't played marvel in awhile, and that move honestly was never worth the reward in his combos vs his other options, but I'm fairly certain the guide was right and the armor was there. Its honestly better than rising fang for combos as Wall of Kun Lun is a convertible wall bounce where as Rising Fang is more of a punish since its tricky to convert if you hit it if you were playing as Iron Fist when it landed. He keeps traveling after hit the full length of the move and ends up too far from folks sometimes to try for stuff. As an assist though its an AMAZING wall bounce...I used it with Taskmaster's arrows and when they'd try to jump BAM they'd get hit and it was combo time. Same for Arthur's zoning. However, for just Iron Fist combos...do Wall of Kun Lun if you want the wall bounce. You can convert that easier.

 

[Azn_Boy]

No change on the Gravimetric Pulse H assist. It's a unique assist, you don't want to lose it... especially now with health loss capped a bit.

You should also specify that Javelin causes a soft knockdown as an assist.

Cr.L should be +1 on block.

In addition, I feel like you are double nerfing the j.H air throw OS. You are nerfing his air throw range but now also his j.H hit box. I feel like it only needs one nerf.

Wall of Kun Lun is a redundant assist when Rising Fang exist. There was no need to replace the crumple stun assist, you can probably improve it as a CC assist.

He only wants the hitbox reduced slightly. It will still probably be ridiculous, I mean check out Wolverine's dive kick after it got nerfed.

 

[Karsticles]

If feel like Nova's j.H doesn't mirror the animation at all. It's very frustrating.

Well I guess SRK got it wrong then because I was looking at it to confirm and it's not listed there.

I guess we need an IF player here to confirm this. If it's an armored move then keep it as an assist. That actually sounds pretty good.

The guide says armor from frames 5-17, FYI. Frantic and GB are the Keepers of the Frame Data...

I cannot agree with the bolded changes at all. Dormammu already gets way too many throws and has very easy follow-ups to them, and his launcher has too many active frames and too big of a hitbox to be that safe. Heck, I almost feel like we should decrease the frame advantage for his launcher, because I don't see that move get punished enough for what it does.

Dormammu's throw follow-ups are not easy. Nova throw follow-ups are easy. Dormammu's air throws near the ground actually take a lot of practice to follow up on consistently, not that that should matter.

Different characters need different tools, and Dormammu's launcher is an important poke for him in the neutral to deter characters from rushing in without fear. Especially things like dash -> Berserker Slash through all of his tools. It being punishable on block is a mistake.

As for 3C0D, I think simply making the move hit OTG will be enough of a buff to it without any other changes. Being able to use it in a combo would lead to people using it more, and I don't think someone should get slowed-down that easily. Making a move that goes full-screen that quickly unblockable is a really bad idea.

No one is going to choose to ground an opponent over landing big damage with 1D2C, 2D1C, or 3D0C. And I already explained that it needs to have a purpose in the neutral. This would not change his meta at all.

 

[Vice]

It has armor. Just tested it.

 

[Karsticles]

It has armor. Just tested it.

Thank you kindly!

 

[Sigmaah]

Wow are you fucking serious...

I am sitting here defending one single buff on Nova and Karst comes in here with fucking 10 buffs on Dormammu.

Jesus christ...

I don't even know where to start on Dorm but one thing is for sure... NO Meteor Smash assist.

And here I was thinking Karst could hide his bias towards Dormammu.

Shows what I know.

LMFAO, you guys got me dying over here!!!!

Dorm needs his damage reduced and his j.H and j.S hit boxes fixed, shit fucking hits you from so far away. Other then that y'all can decide rest of the changes for him.

Skrull needs to be safer like some of you have said and he deff needs to say he loves you again.

Nova's throw range and the time he has to combo from throws need to be reduced. Rest of the changes on you guys again.

Iron Fist needs his s.S to work like everyone else's s.S. Rest of the changes are on y'all,

 

[Deleted member 13876]

In addition, I feel like you are double nerfing the j.H air throw OS. You are nerfing his air throw range but now also his j.H hit box. I feel like it only needs one nerf.

If this is a pick one thing, I'd prefer the nerfed hitbox. The throw range is what made Nova one of the few effective characters against Morridoom as Nemo demonstrated. However, this is partly because I'm not clear on the changes to Morrigan and Doom. Can't remember if Morrigan has been covered already.

 

[Dahbomb]

Honestly even with all those changes I think he's not even that good. He's only way to get in on zoning is Rising Fang and it's unsafe plus he can't cancel it into a hyper like Cap can.

And you seem to think Arthur didn't get buffed... he got a shit ton of buffs too.

improved overhead, extra low, and launcher along with double jump

So you basically described Captain America here only replace the Roll with the overhead.

And thanks for the check on Iron Fist. You rarely get to see WKL used in the neutral that I have never seen someone use the armor on it. I guess now that you can throw it out people will know that it has armor!

HOWEVER, I do not feel that its safe giving Iron Fist a double jump because that effectively allows him to extend his air combos by a good margin.

There is no character who gets absurd combos in the game from double jump. Besides if you are doing a air magic series combo then you are probably doing some unoptimized shit anyway. The double jump is for slightly more air maneuverability and a slightly better fuzzy guard game.

 

[Azn_Boy]

If this is a pick one thing, I'd prefer the nerfed hitbox. The throw range is what made Nova one of the few effective characters against Morridoom as Nemo demonstrated. However, this is partly because I'm not clear on the changes to Morrigan and Doom. Can't remember if Morrigan has been covered already.

Just nerf the damage on her fireballs and make sure she can't build meter during AV, I personally don't care about anything else but those.

 

[Tirael]

*Launcher can hit in an anti air and juggle situation

Is this just making it a normal launcher? The wording is weird. If so, I approve.

 

[Dahbomb]

Is this just making it a normal launcher? The wording is weird. If so, I approve.

More or less yes.

 

[Zissou]

If Dormammu's launcher is made into a relatively safe poke on parity with Storm's launcher, it's active frames should be made similar to Storm's launcher as well (12 active frames).

 

[Karsticles]

LMFAO, you guys got me dying over here!!!!

Dorm needs his damage reduced and his j.H and j.S hit boxes fixed, shit fucking hits you from so far away. Other then that y'all can decide rest of the changes for him.

Skrull needs to be safer like some of you have said and he deff needs to say he loves you again.

Nova's throw range and the time he has to combo from throws need to be reduced. Rest of the changes on you guys again.

Iron Fist needs his s.S to work like everyone else's s.S. Rest of the changes are on y'all,

Is that a Zero player asking for hitbox nerfs that I see?

j.H and j.S get beat by every decent anti-air in the game. People just suck at it in this game for the most part. Sollune and SlasherMcGirk make me scared to j.H/j.S with Dormammu because they know how to counter it properly. Record the computer AI doing the move over and over and learn to counter it. It's not a tenth as good as Zero's j.H or Nova's j.H.

Here is what I am willing to support for Iron Fist so far. Do not underestimate the buffs we have given him. Rising Fang + assist gets him in for free, and Iron Fist has some of the best pressure in the game. He needs more, but the complete reformation of his Chi moves is too much. It's too complicated and messy, and I just think it's unnecessary. A comboable Charging Star already solves half of his problems in the neutral.

Iron Fist:
*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.

Assists: Rising Fang, Crescent Heel, Wall of K’un-Lun

If this is a pick one thing, I'd prefer the nerfed hitbox. The throw range is what made Nova one of the few effective characters against Morridoom as Nemo demonstrated. However, this is partly because I'm not clear on the changes to Morrigan and Doom. Can't remember if Morrigan has been covered already.

The throws Nemo did with Nova would work even in a nerfed situation. He basically wavedashed under her and grabbed her straight up. There was no cheese there, that was pure goddamn skill. Nemo is the only Nova that makes me respect what the character is capable of. He makes Moons look like a scrub.

 

[Vice]

Oh, this Dorm talk reminded me that I noticed a possible change for Cap that no one mentioned. I don't think HCS is truly projectile invincible. It just has a massive amount of projectile durability. It can absorb 10 hits of Dorms sphere super for example and then he'll get hit. Even if the super is still active. It's happened to me a few times.

 

[Karsticles]

Oh, this Dorm talk reminded me that I noticed a possible change for Cap that no one mentioned. I don't think HCS is truly projectile invincible. It just has a massive amount of projectile durability. It can absorb 10 hits of Dorms sphere super for example and then he'll get hit. Even if the super is still active. It's happened to me a few times.

I'm pretty sure it is projectile invincible, but the active frames run out sooner than people think. Once the active frames are gone, you get hit. Same thing with Bionic Lancer. It's less invincible than people think.

 

[Vice]

I'm pretty sure it is projectile invincible, but the active frames run out sooner than people think. Once the active frames are gone, you get hit. Same thing with Bionic Lancer. It's less invincible than people think.

Can invincibility eat durability points? It will take 10 hits from stalking flares total amount when it doesn't go through to Dorm.

 

[Dahbomb]

Iron Fist:
*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.

Assists: Rising Fang, Crescent Heel, Wall of K’un-Lun

Man that Chi rework system was great.... but I knew it was a hail mary in terms of getting improved. I felt like Iron Fist needed something big to be good because even those changes I am thinking "meh".

 

[Karsticles]

Can invincibility eat durability points? It will take 10 hits from stalking flares total amount when it doesn't go through to Dorm.

Invincibility doesn't eat durability points, so it must have another property. It could be like Human Rocket, which is projectile invincible and also 100% destroys all projectiles (poor Dormammu). Except maybe it only does some damage to projectiles.

Even so, I think the one thing Cap doesn't need is a Charging Star/HCS buff. We're trying to make characters smarter, not dumber.

Man that Chi rework system was great.... but I knew it was a hail mary in terms of getting improved. I felt like Iron Fist needed something big to be good because even those changes I am thinking "meh".

He now has an armored wall bounce and a projectile-destroying flying kick that wall bounces. He basically got two new moves with these changes, and they are huge. Don't underestimate how big that can be, because now he can say "Fuck you" to keepaway or rushdown. I think the rest of our changes should be small stuff to wrap up loose ends with the character. Maybe give the Chi hyper armor instead of super armor so he can use it as a pressure reversal as it's intended, since right now multi-hit moves kill that utility.

 

[shaowebb]

Honestly even with all those changes I think he's not even that good. He's only way to get in on zoning is Rising Fang and it's unsafe plus he can't cancel it into a hyper like Cap can.

And you seem to think Arthur didn't get buffed... he got a shit ton of buffs too.


So you basically described Captain America here only replace the Roll with the overhead.

And thanks for the check on Iron Fist. You rarely get to see WKL used in the neutral that I have never seen someone use the armor on it. I guess now that you can throw it out people will know that it has armor!


There is no character who gets absurd combos in the game from double jump. Besides if you are doing a air magic series combo then you are probably doing some unoptimized shit anyway. The double jump is for slightly more air maneuverability and a slightly better fuzzy guard game.

He's a ground combo factory with high damage and crumple resets...stop and think about this. Viper using wesker low gun...combo, seismo jump cancel do the air combo, double jump air combo take them down low gun launcher air combo double jump air combo super...her damage is low and that is a HUGE combo for her. Now think of Iron Fist with an OTG assist, his current damage, your armored rekkas, and his current huge ground combos augmented by the fact that the crescent heel no longer takes them off their feet....he ground combos like mad and you cant keep him out in a team like Iron Fist, Wesker, Arthur. He gets in rekka combos, crumples, rekka combos aagain...thats already one loop and we know its huge, but now he air combos, doubles that with the jump, wesker pops them back up and the new launcher RELAUNCHES them into either two more loops and a tac or jump cancel combo double super...do you really want that?

I played him and dont want that. That much damage, and all your other buffs open his team building and combos...plus wesker lowshot is a good mixup assist with his rekkas for high low with the new overhead too and armored rekkas...heroes and heralds proved to me why he shouldn't get armor.



EDIT: On a side note jump cancel combos are honestly the only kind of combo I've seen rising fang used in that could convert the wall bounce as in the corner he doesn't fly away and can do the fire super after it. His combos corner push but they dont always end up there if you caught a person not respecting standing M and pulled one off. This is why I think Wall of Kun Lun would be used more for combos than rising fang in wall bounce combos.

 

[Solune]

I can't believe you guys are listing Iron Fist changes without making Rising Fang Air OK...

 

[Karsticles]

He's a ground combo factory with high damage and crumple resets...stop and think about this. Viper using wesker low gun...combo, seismo jump cancel do the air combo, double jump air combo take them down low gun launcher air combo double jump air combo super...her damage is low and that is a HUGE combo for her. Now think of Iron Fist with an OTG assist, his current damage, your armored rekkas, and his current huge ground combos augmented by the fact that the crescent heel no longer takes them off their feet....he ground combos like mad and you cant keep him out in a team like Iron Fist, Wesker, Arthur. He gets in rekka combos, crumples, rekka combos aagain...thats already one loop and we know its huge, but now he air combos, doubles that with the jump, wesker pops them back up and the new launcher RELAUNCHES them into either two more loops and a tac or jump cancel combo double super...do you really want that?

I played him and dont want that. That much damage, and all your other buffs open his team building and combos...plus wesker lowshot is a good mixup assist with his rekkas for high low with the new overhead too and armored rekkas...heroes and heralds proved to me why he shouldn't get armor.

EDIT: On a side note jump cancel combos are honestly the only kind of combo I've seen rising fang used in that could convert the wall bounce as in the corner he doesn't fly away and can do the fire super after it. His combos corner push but they dont always end up there if you caught a person not respecting standing M and pulled one off. This is why I think Wall of Kun Lun would be used more for combos than rising fang in wall bounce combos.

So...what do you suggest?

I can't believe you guys are listing Iron Fist changes without making Rising Fang Air OK...

Screw that. It would completely destroy aerial keepaway characters. We already gave him a great AA tool in the Volcanic Roar buff.

 

[Vice]

Invincibility doesn't eat durability points, so it must have another property. It could be like Human Rocket, which is projectile invincible and also 100% destroys all projectiles (poor Dormammu). Except maybe it only does some damage to projectiles.

Even so, I think the one thing Cap doesn't need is a Charging Star/HCS buff. We're trying to make characters smarter, not dumber.

The thing is it has other strange interaction with projectile supers because its just a highly durable projectile in front of cap rather than invincible. Zero's level 3 beats HCS as well and I think a few other supers may as well. It's probably intentional though.

 

[Poltergust]

Dormammu's throw follow-ups are not easy. Nova throw follow-ups are easy. Dormammu's air throws near the ground actually take a lot of practice to follow up on consistently, not that that should matter.

The main point I was making is that Dormammu already has one of the longest-ranged throws. I see him get throws all the time. Why should that get buffed at all?

Actually, there is a buff for Dormammu's (and Phoenix's, since she suffers through the same thing) throws that needs to happen, and that would be to fix that weird glitch in which the character gets thrown in the opposite direction in which you throw them.

Different characters need different tools, and Dormammu's launcher is an important poke for him in the neutral to deter characters from rushing in without fear. Especially things like dash -> Berserker Slash through all of his tools. It being punishable on block is a mistake.

Doesn't Berserker Slash lose to Flame Carpet?

Regardless, you're naive in thinking that it's only used for that kind of thing. Dormammu has a strong offensive game as well. You can't just look at one particular playstyle or match-up and make judgments just because of that.

The launcher fits all the criteria of being too good of a move for what it does:

-Relatively fast start-up
-Humongous hitbox that can work as an anti-air
-20 active frames

There is no way that move is gonna get buffed even further. The recovery is the only thing that prevents it from being overpowered. If you wanna make it safer, one of its other strong points will need to take a hit.

No one is going to choose to ground an opponent over landing big damage with 1D2C, 2D1C, or 3D0C. And I already explained that it needs to have a purpose in the neutral. This would not change his meta at all.

What's the frame data on it? If I remember correctly it has rather fast start-up.

 

[Karsticles]

The thing is it has other strange interaction with projectile supers because its just a highly durable projectile in front of cap rather than invincible. Zero's level 3 beats HCS as well and I think a few other supers may as well. It's probably intentional though.

If Zero does Genmu Zero, and you do Hyper Charging Star on reaction, Genmu Zero wins?

 

[Sigmaah]

Is that a Zero player asking for hitbox nerfs that I see?

j.H and j.S get beat by every decent anti-air in the game. People just suck at it in this game for the most part. Sollune and SlasherMcGirk make me scared to j.H/j.S with Dormammu because they know how to counter it properly. Record the computer AI doing the move over and over and learn to counter it. It's not a tenth as good as Zero's j.H or Nova's j.H.

I forgot to say I meant it was when someone trieds to cross you up with it by jumping and dashing df and using it like that. I feel like from that point it shouldn't be hitting you from so far away, any other way besides that is fine. <3

 

[Vice]

If Zero does Genmu Zero, and you do Hyper Charging Star on reaction, Genmu Zero wins?

Yup. He can beat HCS on reaction with it as well. Full damage and everything. Although to be fair Cap can cartwheel through it on reaction.

 

[shaowebb]

So...what do you suggest?

Simple...lower his damage. Lower his damage and you can go nuts on giving him mobility in the air, and tools to get in all day. Lower his damage and its totally cool to remove the restrictive properties to his launcher and his crescent heel that make it so hard for him to do combos and get his crumple reset. Lower his damage and its safe if he does double air magic series relaunch double air magic series tac.

Iron Fist has chi for damage if he needs it, but currently his damage is so blindingly high that folks think you have to work AROUND it to make him good. If you tried that you couldn't buff anything without severe risk and he HAS to get buffs to be usable. So just toss it. Normalize his damage and open up his combo potential and mobility options along with his rekkas. At that point his team options dramatically open up as well and with that so do his setups. I still feel with low damage he'd need a proper mixup more than all that armor so I'd like to see him get a roll to make him a different take on Wolverine...sort of like a rekka with resets. He's a footsie dude and a rekka rushdown character in a game full of beams. Give him a roll to try for mixups, lower that damage and open him up.

I posted my list already. If they gave him the roll I say go with an airdash over a double jump as he'd get more combos and have more setups to start damage, but with out the roll and the buff/nerfs I proposed then sure double jump works for me as he'd need to get more once inside if it took more work to get him going.

 

[Dahbomb]

No one uses Chi for defensive purposes, that's why I gave it counters on activation. If you could cancel Chi's into something then it would be useful but you can't do that.

He's a ground combo factory with high damage and crumple resets...stop and think about this.

I do stop and think about it, I have thought about Iron Fist for over a year. In this game it's not always you get a clean ground hit and that's where you get the big damage from Iron Fist. You need a Spencer grapple assist just to get big damage from air to air hit confirms.

Double jump isn't what inflates damage. Iron Fist's minimum scaling on normals is 5% he isn't get big damage from doing air MMH stuff he's getting big damage from his Rekkas. No double jump character is getting absurd damage from double jumps. Chun Li doesn't do big damage, Joe doesn't do big damage, Dante doesn't do big damage. Viper and Cap do big damage DESPITE having double jump, you can choose to not jump with the two characters and they still do big damage.

You can post your Iron Fist H&H double jump BnBs if you want. We can then access if the damage is absurd or not. Personally, a character with limited opening capability should be doing big damage... he should at least be doing around the damage of Captain America.

Also in this patch there's a universal health buff so Iron Fist does not really need a damage nerf.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

GG's Beef. Good job netcode. I'm super salty about that score though. I guess that's what 2 weeks off and a shit controller will do to you.

I gotta watch out for those wakeup shenanigans though.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

The throws Nemo did with Nova would work even in a nerfed situation. He basically wavedashed under her and grabbed her straight up. There was no cheese there, that was pure goddamn skill. Nemo is the only Nova that makes me respect what the character is capable of. He makes Moons look like a scrub.

Hmm, you're probably right now that I mentally replay those grabs.

On another note Dormammu's real air follow-ups are indeed tricky, but you can just go straight into pillar, Chaotic Flame, X-Factor or DHC if you want easy damage and have the resources. Corner follow-ups are also pretty free.

 

[shaowebb]

No one uses Chi for defensive purposes, that's why I gave it counters on activation. If you could cancel Chi's into something then it would be useful but you can't do that.


I do stop and think about it, I have thought about Iron Fist for over a year. In this game it's not always you get a clean ground hit and that's where you get the big damage from Iron Fist. You need a Spencer grapple assist just to get big damage from air to air hit confirms.

Double jump isn't what inflates damage. Iron Fist's minimum scaling on normals is 5% he isn't get big damage from doing air MMH stuff he's getting big damage from his Rekkas. No double jump character is getting absurd damage from double jumps. Chun Li doesn't do big damage, Joe doesn't do big damage, Dante doesn't do big damage. Viper and Cap do big damage DESPITE having double jump, you can choose to not jump with the two characters and they still do big damage.

You can post your Iron Fist H&H double jump BnBs if you want. We can then access if the damage is absurd or not. Personally, a character with limited opening capability should be doing big damage... he should at least be doing around the damage of Captain America.

Also in this patch there's a universal health buff so Iron Fist does not really need a damage nerf.

I see what your saying, but I feel with his potential for new teams and one involving Wesker low shot that his relaunch combo would be too much at that damage. We can see it differently on the damage and double jump, but at least it seems we both agreed on his main changes being the launcher, crescent heel properties, and rekkas. I also appreciate the extra low.

I'll stick to my ideal change list though

• Airdash
• nerf his damage down to mortal levels and let players utilize the chi if they want that stuff
• make the launcher hit folks normally and not just on the ground to remove the issue of having to create combos that force folks to stay grounded...this also helps with his team building issues and relieves Spencer from teams wishing to get better crumple combo setups
• Remove the requirement that Wall of K'un Lun and Rising Fang require 2 rekkas performed before they are able to be used. Make them available at any time. Mainly this allows at full screen with the proper assists for Rising fang to put Iron Fist up and over projectiles and in people's faces.
• Give him a roll like Frank West so that he can have proper mixup potential and not just pressure. Given the proposed Nerf of his damage this essentially turns him into a rekka Wolverine in many ways.
• Iron Fist's overhead Ax Kick (that is also his only OTG) is needed to help open people up, but is never used that way as it cripples his combos. Get rid of the knockdown it causes on standing opponents and only have that on airborne opponents so it can be used properly as an opener and so it doesn't force people off of their feet. This means it can be used as an opener WITHOUT removing his option of using the crumple in any combos that open this way.

Any actual word leading toward a patch or still just speculation since Ono brought it up?

 

[Dahbomb]

I honestly think air dash is a way, way worse idea than double jump. Iron Fist would then start box dash j.H all day and then use it for cross ups + air throw OS. And since we improved his air throw game this would be a potent tactic.

If IF gets an air dash then he definitely needs a damage nerf.

At any rate, right now IF needs absolutely no nerfs. The character is bottom 5 free. Our buffs to him brought him to at best Mid tier level where he has some tools against a variety of situations but not all situations. He still has no super fast mix up, he still lacks super jump confirms and he still lacks variety in approaches.

 

[shaowebb]

I honestly think air dash is a way, way worse idea than double jump. Iron Fist would then start box dash j.H all day and then use it for cross ups + air throw OS. And since we improved his air throw game this would be a potent tactic.

If IF gets an air dash then he definitely needs a damage nerf.

Thats just one more reason I said nerf the damage. I want mixups and this is one of the bigger ones I want for his crossup game to finally get used more. I played him enough though to know if he could do this as often as HH let me with the air dash I put on him IMMEDIATELY after that mode launched that he'd need a damage nerf lol.

Give him more potential to hit and he immediately becomes loveable, but requires a damage nerf to accomodate it...I can live with that. Justin Wong's ancient Iron Fist/Wolverine/Akuma team starts looking pretty sexy with that air dash and my proposed roll

At any rate, right now IF needs absolutely no nerfs. The character is bottom 5 free. Our buffs to him brought him to at best Mid tier level where he has some tools against a variety of situations but not all situations. He still has no super fast mix up, he still lacks super jump confirms and he still lacks variety in approaches.

Thus why I proposed the roll. He'd get Frank West setups then. He's a footsie due though. Variety aint going to be something he does much of. Just tries to punish and suffocate. At least this way he can go for go behinds off of blockstrings.

 

[Vice]

How does Marvel-Gaf feel about specials and normals that nullify pushblocking like Nova's centurion rushes?

 

[Dahbomb]

Thats just one more reason I said nerf the damage. I want mixups and this is one of the bigger ones I want for his crossup game to finally get used more. I played him enough though to know if he could do this as often as HH let me with the air dash I put on him IMMEDIATELY after that mode launched that he'd need a damage nerf lol.

Give him more potential to hit and he immediately becomes loveable, but requires a damage nerf to accomodate it...I can live with that.

If we want to give him better tools we can... they just have to make sense. Air dash on IF makes no sense, it's just a "let's make him better" buff. It's like giving She Hulk an air dash, give the hit box of that j.H it's just not a good idea.

Iron Fist is similar to Cap... he has basic stuff and he excels on the ground. Trying to give him crazy mix up or mobility options is not the answer to fixing him.

How does Marvel-Gaf feel about specials and normals that nullify pushblocking like Nova's centurion rushes?

I like them and I feel more moves should have it. Stuff like Chun Li's SBK.

Although as far as IF goes, negation of push block is not a big issue for him.

 

[commanderpepper]

How does Marvel-Gaf feel about specials and normals that nullify pushblocking like Nova's centurion rushes?

I believe that flying and un-flying nullifies pushblock. I don't see a problem with it.

 

[Sigmaah]

We haven't done Doom yet right? I can't wait to nerf the fuck outta his j.S holy fuck.