shaowebb
Member
Yeah he sort of already does that well enough once he gets you cornered already.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
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Yeah he sort of already does that well enough once he gets you cornered already.
YOU PLAY ZERO
Karsticles
Member
I don't think his throw range is particularly good. Felicia and Nova have good air throw ranges. You also have to consider the range within the context of the character. Wolverine gets air throws not because his range is great, but because he can always get himself to where he needs to be to land an air throw. Dormammu cannot.
Eh. I'm indifferent toward this. I'll add it, though.
If you can place Flame Carpet against Wolverine.
?
It doesn't work as an anti-air. Its vertical hitbox is too small unless someone is making a tridash toward his front. In which case, any normal usually works.
I'm fine with dropping the active frames a bit for it to be safe on block. I'm curious what people think is fair.
It doesn't matter, since 2D1C will always be the better defensive move.
15 startup
36 recovery
-23 on block (really bad)
Jump up and air throw Dormammu before he comes down.
Interesting.
Sometimes necessary, like with Senpu Bu.
I support no nerfs to Doom's j.S. It's very fair as-is.
I'm sorry but that isn't even that great. If you want to make Iron Fist relevant you need to make him viable. These overall changes don't do much of anything...
Dahbomb's changes are all good, but these are all things that Iron Fist should have had from the start (except double jump) so by buffing him this way he's "normalized" and not well... good.Dahbomb said:
Your Chi system cool I'll give you that. Wall of K'un-Lun assist is redundant because it ALSO causes wall bounce like Rising Fang except it is hard knockdown. It does have armor over Rising Fang so there's that but having two wallbounce assists... is there even anyone else like that?
Volcanic Roar is a very risky anti-air, and you have to spend a meter to AA someone? Ridiculous. And I know you're biased because it has similar frame data to Chaotic Flame. There's a huge difference of activation between the two.
I think one extra thing needed on Iron Fist is safety on some of his rekkas. I feel like stuff like Lotus Whip should be + on block. A lot of his rekkas are used for pressure and soon you reach a point where you are left with using a rekka that might be super negative on block. I am curious to see what Shao says about this.
I think without stuff like a Dive Kick or a better Chi system this character is just not all that good. No safe DHCs, no SJ height confirms, no air to ground pressure, one dimensional approach, mediocre mix ups for a rushdown character. I am 100% if you put this patched Iron Fist into the current game he would hardly make anyway ways. Would still get demolished by Vergil and Zero.
That's pretty much exactly what I think right now. Most of my changes were "NO DUH" type changes on the character... nothing extraordinary aside from the Chi rework. We all know Karst is super biased against projectile nullifying moves... yea all those Captain Americas out there really destroying the competitive scene.
I think without stuff like a Dive Kick or a better Chi system this character is just not all that good. No safe DHCs, no SJ height confirms, no air to ground pressure, one dimensional approach, mediocre mix ups for a rushdown character. I am 100% if you put this patched Iron Fist into the current game he would hardly make anyway ways. Would still get demolished by Vergil and Zero.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Double jump only really helps Iron Fist if he has some sort of aerial move like the Rising Dragon thing.
You guys didn't like my idea that he can cancel his rekkas into themselves? Because if you block the overhead one he doesn't have any more mixups off his rekka. And if he could negate pushblock with rekkas he'd get a full series for working his ass off to get in.
You guys didn't like my idea that he can cancel his rekkas into themselves? Because if you block the overhead one he doesn't have any more mixups off his rekka. And if he could negate pushblock with rekkas he'd get a full series for working his ass off to get in.
Karsticles
Member
Volcanic Roar starts up in 9 frames. It's an AA beam hyper. XFC it and kill. I guarantee you that this will become common if our changes get implemented at all.
Aerial Rising Fang would destroy characters like Deadpool, Chris, Trish, Hawkeye, and Taskmaster.
True.
Also, should we just nerf Iron Fist's specials by 10% damage across the board?
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72898331]Double jump only really helps Iron Fist if he has some sort of aerial move like the Rising Dragon thing.
You guys didn't like my idea that he can cancel his rekkas into themselves? Because if you block the overhead one he doesn't have any more mixups off his rekka. And if he could negate pushblock with rekkas he'd get a full series for working his ass off to get in.[/QUOTE]
His Rekkas are already designed to negate pushblock, and if you let them actually negate it then you open him up to really long pressure strings that make the game 1-player.
How about we buff the recovery on his Chi moves, and make the Rekkas cancelable into them?
I'm not sure about Rekkas canceling into themselves. I'm not opposed to it. I missed that before; my bad.
Fuck no jesus christ... no nerfs on Iron Fist unless he gets something crazy like an air dash. He doesn't have high scaling values (5% on normals) and in a game where health is buffed he is going to struggle to kill. For a character with a one dimensional mix up game, no way to inflict damage outside of opening someone up and limited mobility... his damage is fine.
Karsticles
Member
He DID get something crazy. -_-
If you think Rising Fang on Iron Fist is crazy then half of your Dorm buffs are SUPER DUPER CRAZY.
Here's what you do against Rising Fang.... you block and you punish him. Or you air throw him and you negate the effectiveness of his assist. Everything about this character still requires an assist. He needs a Spencer grapple to get big damage off of air juggles. He needs a get in assist because no way he's getting in alone with a Rising Fang. He needs a super jump assist to control those type of characters. He needs a lock down assist to open someone up.
Current Dorm launcher frame data:
Startup: 9
Active: 20
Advantage if guarded: -9
(also has projectile nullification properties)
Storm launcher for comparison
Startup: 13
Active: 12
Advantage if guarded: -1
Currently, aside from being unsafe on block, Dorm's launcher is better than Storm's (frame data-wise) in every way- it's quicker and has active frames for days. Making it relatively safe on top of all that would be absurd.
Amen.
shaowebb
Member
No I agree he should be positive on some stuff...just dont Superman him and turn the whole group into a giant frame advantage. The trick is figuring out which rekkas should generally be expected as block string enders because those are typically where he summons an assist to allow him to recover and keep his pressure on. Thing is if he just had more lows it wouldn't even be needed to buff his frame data on block unless it was possibly crescent heel which would be used more as an opener if it didn't take them off their feet anymore. More lows would mean far less predictable pressure from him and more openings. Currently even without a bunch of low options once he's inside his pressure is already so crazy he opens folks up unless they know to immediately pushblock and go for something massive in priority or to force him back out.
Buff the frame data on block? Sure...but mainly on crescent heel and dont go nuts with it. See F23 Superman rants on the Injustice boards to see why too much frame advantage on a power guy who progresses forward and pressures is utter bullshit.
Which is why I say its better to up his potential to get combos and his mobility and nerf his damage to make him good. Air dash +roll+ plus damage nerf and you can open him up with the rest of my list to enormous combos and far more hit opportunities safely...which is what the character TRULY needs. Stronger odds of hitting and stronger ways inside. If he needs a damage nerf to get those then give him the tools we suggested to open up his combo and team options.
XFC a move that requires a meter in the first place to kill... isn't almighty in the first place. In fact I would say that's normal in Marvel...
And I see no reason why Iron Fist shouldn't have a good matchup against those characters. I'm not saying make Iron Fist top tier or high tier even, but there's a reason there aren't many Iron Fist players, and I can tell you it's not because Volcanic Roar doesn't cause soft knockdown atm. Aerial Rising Fang would at least give Iron Fist two things he needs badly, air mobility, and air hitconfirms. He has none and with these current changes he will still have none, which means hes still bad. Remember, IF cannot cancel Rising Fang into Chi, and he has huge recovery time after landing.
Karsticles
Member
Oh, so Hawkeye should just wait for Rising Fang while Iron Fist dashes toward him.
It also has an inferior hitbox to Storm's launcher. Look beyond the frame data.
Regardless, I recommend the following new frame data for his launcher:
Startup: 9
Active: 14
Advantage if guarded: -4
This supports using the move on anticipation, like it should be. Better anticipation leads to better frame advantage, while using it at point blank range still gets Dormammu killed against fast characters, discouraging its use in that situation.
Dormammu:
*j.M hit float properties returned to Vanilla status (no knockback).
*3D0C is now +1 on block.
*0D3C now slows characters by 25% and is unblockable; previous effect removed; now OTGs.
*Ground and air throw range extended slightly; air throws no longer occasionally cause opponents to bounce off of a wall.
*s.S -4 on block; active frames reduced to 14.
*0D1C and 0D2C now hit OTG.
*s.H frontal hitbox made slightly larger (c.L, s.H always hits).
*Damage on normals reduced by 10% across the board.
*0D0C startup is 10 frames; hitbox increased slightly.
*Flame Carpet no longer hits low.
Assists: Purification (Tracking), Dark Matter, Dark Spell (L)
Iron Fist:
*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.
*Chi L, M, and H recovery reduced to 10; armor changed to frames 1-11; now hyper armor; all specials now cancelable into Chi moves.
Assists: Rising Fang, Crescent Heel, Wall of K’un-Lun
Check out the Chi change to Iron Fist. Note that during Chi, he would not be pushblockable, as with any move that cancels active frame recovery into a neutral move. This would help his pressure greatly and give him a lot of mindgames.
Iron Fist is not as bad as people make him out to be. He has problems, but he's not a piece of crap. You've shown me several times how terrifying he can be in the right hands on the right team. He has gotten substantial buffs, and I just added a Chi rework; I can't support Rising Fang being air OK. Give him an anti-air assist like Wesker or Morrigan.
shaowebb
Member
I think he'd cross you the fuck up.
Karsticles
Member
Iron Fist should just hit Vergil. If Hawkeye tries to shoot an arrow, Rising Fang will hit both since Rapid Slash is all projectiles.
"God's Beard!"
Member
How about instead of a double jump you give Iron Fist a Short Hop by tapping an up direction?
That way he can maintain forward movement while avoiding projectiles with more finesse, and he gets more ambiguous pressure. Only right that a martial arts character should fight like he's in KOF.
That way he can maintain forward movement while avoiding projectiles with more finesse, and he gets more ambiguous pressure. Only right that a martial arts character should fight like he's in KOF.
You think Hawkeye shooting out Speed shot arrow against a full screen Iron Fist is going to get stuffed out by Rising Fang? LOL!
shaowebb
Member
You should just use Hawkeye's arrows and not jump and wait for him to panic and rising fang then call an AA once he goes into the recovery on the move. Its not safe on whif and even with Arthur's daggers Hawkeye is dead even with that assist and can negate it. Currently Arthur is really Iron Fist's best anchor as he can wave dash inside the daggers since they are slower than your hawkeye's arrows...otherwise Hawkeye would be his bro.
Iron fist cant get in on a ground game vs Hawkeye even with the buffs. He'd have to go airborn either by jump or by rising fang. In that scenario just shoot and chill and call someone to protect the skies.
Karsticles
Member
If you're describing a 1v2 situation, okay. But that's not the game.
Anyway, the point is: no aerial Rising Fang.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72901141]How about instead of a double jump you give Iron Fist a Short Hop by tapping an up direction?
That way he can maintain forward movement while avoiding projectiles with more finesse, and he gets more ambiguous pressure. Only right that a martial arts character should fight like he's in KOF.[/QUOTE]
That's adding a new input reading into the coding. I think that's problematic and unlikely, though I love the idea.
shaowebb
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72901141]How about instead of a double jump you give Iron Fist a Short Hop by tapping an up direction?
That way he can maintain forward movement while avoiding projectiles with more finesse, and he gets more ambiguous pressure. Only right that a martial arts character should fight like he's in KOF.[/QUOTE]
Another reason I want that roll for a footsie kung fu character!
That way he can maintain forward movement while avoiding projectiles with more finesse, and he gets more ambiguous pressure. Only right that a martial arts character should fight like he's in KOF.[/QUOTE]
Another reason I want that roll for a footsie kung fu character!
You're right... neither is Iron Fist Rising Fanging Hawkeye on every single action he does. Other wise Captain America would win against every single zoner but he doesn't. It's called bait and punish... THAT'S the game.
I think my additional IF changes are jump cancellable Twin Snakes and Lotus Whip being +2 (so he can actually frame trap off of a rekka).
This is sort of a redundant change... he already chains his Rekkas into Chis.
Karsticles
Member
That's a new animation. I made his Rekkas have 1/3 their recovery and gave them hyper armor to help him out with that stuff.
Lotus Whip will be +10 on block with my Chi change when done properly.
I like the Twin Snakes change.
Iron Fist:
*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.
*Chi L, M, and H recovery reduced to 10; armor changed to frames 1-11; now hyper armor; all specials now cancelable into Chi moves.
*Twin Snakes is now jump-cancelable.
Assists: Rising Fang, Crescent Heel, Wall of K’un-Lun
oh wow, I just tested Rising Fang in training mode against Dante charging an Air Play full screen. Went qcf.L, qcb.L, qcb.S and all Rising Fang does is hit Air Play. It doesn't even reach Dante, despite the two previous moves moving him forward. Can't even hit Hysteric from mid-screen, and actually gets hit out of Rising Fang most of the time because of all the little missiles. Even if he can do it on command... not great. Not great...
Karsticles
Member
His Rekkas can be canceled into Chi moves? I didn't think it worked that way. I didn't say his Chis can chain into Rekkas. That would be weird. Last time I checked, Iron Fist players always used the Chi after the crumple.
Making all of his moves +10 on block (roughly) and letting him negate pushblock while giving him hyper armor is a huge buff and makes him interesting and thoughtful to play. He'll be very high execution, but he'll have his audience.
They use the Chi after the crumple because they are chaining the Chi after it to improve the recovery so they can more easily go after the combo. You don't use a Chi after a Rekka in a block string because you lose the pressure, you really use it when you get pushed block at the end of a rekka and you want to refresh your chi.
http://youtu.be/61OaY-AFk6A?t=12m1s
http://youtu.be/61OaY-AFk6A?t=12m1s
Karsticles
Member
K, so they're already cancelable - they just need the recovery buffed.
You don't lose pressure with the new 10 frame recovery I gave them. It's a 15 frame recovery buff, and basically every Rekka move Iron Fist has is now +10 on block or better. It gives him really strong pressure.
No they should be special cancelable/chainable into another rekka. The Chis already count towards your rekkas.
So like you should be able to do Lotus Whip, Chi, Dragon Tail.
You really wouldn't need to give him the hyper armor buff if he had that IMO.
*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.
*Chis should be chainable into Rekkas
*Twin Snakes is now jump-cancelable.
So like you should be able to do Lotus Whip, Chi, Dragon Tail.
You really wouldn't need to give him the hyper armor buff if he had that IMO.
*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.
*Chis should be chainable into Rekkas
*Twin Snakes is now jump-cancelable.
Since when has throwing out random launchers in anticipation of other moves been "like it should be"? Storm is an exception to the rule. Even reduced to 14 active frames, it would still have the most active frames by far of any launcher in the game. Storm's has 11 but it takes longer to start up, and most characters have 5 or fewer active frames on their (generally) unsafe and far less useful launchers. If you block Dormammu's launcher, you should get a full punish.
Professor Beef
Banned
I think Karst should be banned from Dorm discussion.
Also why was this "buff" needed?
This should be replaced by a legitimate buff IMO.
He ALMOST got away with it when he tried to make it a system change (ie all launchers are -1).
Dorm can have a -1 launcher the day he loses all his spells... until then he has to hold that shit.
He already has enough time to OTG after it if you cancel into a Chi.
This should be replaced by a legitimate buff IMO.
Basically once he discovered that Storm had a -1 launcher he has been campaigning to improve Dorm's launcher.
He ALMOST got away with it when he tried to make it a system change (ie all launchers are -1).
Dorm can have a -1 launcher the day he loses all his spells... until then he has to hold that shit.
The only Dorm changes I would approve of are ways to make his presently unused spells on par with his more common ones (with the same number of total charges) so that all spells are viable and usable depending on the situation. That and make flame carpet no longer hit low and slightly reduce his damage. Everything else seems fine as-is.
That's already been done. Most of the Dorm changes are fair. The only two that are iffy are the 3C change and the launcher although to be fair he fixed the launcher in terms of active frames.
OTG after Dragon's Tail should be changed to +2 on Lotus Whip mostly because you don't always end in a Chi for a Rekka series. With Chi being cancelable into a Rekka he would need a safe rekka after it and this will allow him to continue pressure.
Honestly except for iron fist this batch of characters is already fairly well balanced. I still think we are having overreaction in regard to Nova, but there is no way I could prove that without seeming biased. Admittedly I probably am.
Instead of bitching I will just add that a perfectly balanced game might be boring. In a game like marvel everyone should have at least one crazy thing.
Instead of bitching I will just add that a perfectly balanced game might be boring. In a game like marvel everyone should have at least one crazy thing.
Without a rework Iron Fist isn't going to be top tier. I say the same for She Hulk too. Within our constraints and rules, we did the best that we could.
Of course I can easily make IF top tier without limitations. Reworked Chi, Rising Fang air OK, air dash, triple jump, all Rekkas +5 on block, 20% normal/special scaling 50% hyper scaling, new utility hyper that activates all 3 Chis at once "Zen", new aerial dive kick causes ground bounce on aerial opponents, WKL crosses up, Crescent Heel now 15 frame start up, huge time to pick up after throws, all big normals eat projectiles, Storm like huge launcher only -1, command throw like Fei Long.
Of course I can easily make IF top tier without limitations. Reworked Chi, Rising Fang air OK, air dash, triple jump, all Rekkas +5 on block, 20% normal/special scaling 50% hyper scaling, new utility hyper that activates all 3 Chis at once "Zen", new aerial dive kick causes ground bounce on aerial opponents, WKL crosses up, Crescent Heel now 15 frame start up, huge time to pick up after throws, all big normals eat projectiles, Storm like huge launcher only -1, command throw like Fei Long.
Is reducing it to 'only' 14 active frames really a fair trade-off? It still has the most active frames of any launcher in the game, and probably 3 times the active frames of most launchers (which have between 3 and 5 active frames). In exchange for having 6 fewer active frames (but still the most in the game), he's going from -9 on block (i.e., punishable by pretty much the whole cast in most situations) to -4 on block (nearly unpunishable by the majority of the cast in most situations). He's giving up very little to make an incredibly unsafe move very very safe.
You're right, I just wish we could think of a good way to give him a way to APPROACH. Rising Fang is just going to be too predictable. All the buffs you gave him are wonderful and will help immensely with his mixups and damage, but little of that matters if every zoner in the game tears him to shreds.
Give his forward dash a hit of armor, I don't know!
Edit: Eesh, he could really be monstrous in this game if they had wanted him to be. Even if that would have been hard to balance.
Dorm launcher when spaced properly isn't really punishable by a lot of the cast. I honestly would glady take the fewer active frames, that move stays out forever.
The launcher really didn't need a change though but whatever. Its better the launcher taking up the slot than 1 meter Dark Dimension.
The launcher really didn't need a change though but whatever. Its better the launcher taking up the slot than 1 meter Dark Dimension.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
GG's Beef. Have to go to work, otherwise I would've stuck around
Karsticles
Member
12 frames is only 2 more than Dormammu's s.M. The whole point of his normals is to deter movement while canceling projectiles. s.S needs significantly more active frames than s.M to be worth using in its stead, since it's not special-cancelable.
Honestly, if s.M had a better downward vertical hitbox, I wouldn't even bother with s.S. It's just that the move has problems against small characters.
Quite a few characters use raw launchers, though most use them as anti-airs. The following characters throw out raw launchers for anti-air purposes:
Ghost Rider
Frank West
Firebrand
Vergil (great poke in general)
Storm (great poke in general)
Akuma
Chun-li
Felicia
Ryu
Trish (great poke in general)
Wesker
Zero
Shuma-Gorath
Jill
Doom
Captain America
Magneto
Phoenix
Sentinel
Taskmaster
I thought about it, and I wouldn't want Dormammu's s.S to be -1; it would be too good. If I could keep the same active frames, I would probably be happy with it just being -6.
Dragon's Prey is Iron Fist's level 3. To my knowledge, it's not comboable after the cinematic screen. I'd be glad to be proven otherwise with a video, but that's what IF players have always told me.
It has a ton of active frames because Dormammu is supposed to use it in the neutral to snuff out unsafe approaches combined with projectiles. Example: Wolverine calls Plasma Beam and does Berserker Slash. Dormammu needs to be able to hit Wolverine and snuff Plasma Beam. That's the point of the move. Unfortunately, right now using the tool is a little too risky.