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Ultra Street Fighter IV |OT| What is old is new once again

E

El Sloth

Banned
Rice-Eater said:
You haven't seen me bitch about Rose? That's it, you only get my Seth from now on :p
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Good, I need the matchup experience anyways!
OceanBlue said:
;)

(I'm shit at fighting games/the Rose matchup so I have no idea what I'm talking about lol, and I play Sakura so it's a bit different than against traditional shotos like Ryu. I just don't think she's as weak as people were playing her up to be in the EVO thread. I laughed when Rose backdashed out of Gackt's cr.LP st.HP OS.)
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Spab is bugging. Ain't no one say she sucks except Arturo. She's always been mid tier with shaky wakeup options. Since I saw her ultra changes I've been saying she'd be really good. Just right outside of the top tier. If it wasn't for all the vortex characters I would totally say she's one of the best.

I'm one of the few who thinks Rose's toughest matchups are 5-5 at worst. I know there are plenty of Rose players who disagree with me on that one though. However, all the matchups I have trouble with are ones I struggle with personally no matter the character I use. There isn't a single character that makes me think, "Rose doesn't have the tools to deal with this character."

The absorbtion reflect exists for a reason: to discourage people to stop throwing fireballs from full screen! Either mixup your patterns to throw off our timing, use different speed fireballs, or throw out an ex to blowup regular reflect attempts! If you autopilot fireballs and don't mix it up against Rose, then that's your fault. But yeah, if the Rose isn't making you think twice about chucking plasma then we're not playing correctly.

I do love that Spab, a Fuerte, is complaining about another character being annoying to deal with. Means Luffy was playing exactly the way he should have been!
 
B

BotoxAgent

Member
Lyte Edge said:
Gamerbee and Adon immediately springs to mind.
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Adon had pretty tough ass links. So I can see how newbies can easily drop him. But I think they new players can have more success with Rose since she is not very execution heavy. She can be frustrating as hell to new players who don't know frame data and properly punish her normals and specials. I remember back in Vanilla, she was frustrating as hell for me because she seemed so lighting fast, esp her dashes and her wakeup ex drill derp. But as the years went by, run-of-the-mill Rose players are pretty fuckin freeee!
 
A

alstein

Member
El Sloth said:
Good, I need the matchup experience anyways!


I do love that Spab, a Fuerte, is complaining about another character being annoying to deal with. Means Luffy was playing exactly the way he should have been!
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I think Fuerte's buffs might have made the Rose match in Fuerte's favor now.

Rose does have her bad matchups, but I don't think she gets blown up by anybody, which makes her a great tourney char now.
 
O

Onemic

Member
BotoxAgent said:
Adon had pretty tough ass links. So I can see how newbies can easily drop him. But I think they new players can have more success with Rose since she is not very execution heavy. She can be frustrating as hell to new players who don't know frame data and properly punish her normals and specials. I remember back in Vanilla, she was frustrating as hell for me because she seemed so lighting fast, esp her dashes and her wakeup ex drill derp. But as the years went by, run-of-the-mill Rose players are pretty fuckin freeee!
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Adon always seemed pretty easy to me :/

I remember I got my highest pp ever with him by a pretty large margin in AE2012 after only playing him for a week
 
M

M3z_

Member
I think rose is the easiest of all the zoner characters, but even then I think zoning is more intelligent and demanding of skill than rushdown in sf4. And by easiest I mean easiest to learn and apply tools because she has fewer tools to choose from, and that being balanced by her tools working in more situations. The idea that rose is op or broken is silly, even if her backdash is super stupid and skilless. Louffy played incredible and earned the shot out of his win.
 
BizzyBum

BizzyBum

Member
El Sloth said:
I saw y'all and them salty Rose posts in the EVO thread. I didn't realize so many of you felt that way!
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As a Ryu player, I've hated Rose for about a good 4 years now.. lol. It's just now with the Ultra buffs and a character specialist like Louffy winning EVO with her that people have finally started to realize how good she really is in the right hands.

I'm not knocking Louffy at all. Dude played out of his mind. He's also been playing Rose since Vanilla. Specializing in a single character for 5 years takes a lot of work and good for him.

However, I will say the match vs Bonchan showed how broken her meter gain is. She gains HALF A BAR of meter per fireball absorb. Louffy seemed to have his Super stocked within the first 10 seconds of each round. Now, the counter argument to this is "Stop throwing so many damn fireballs." Okay, so you want a character like Sagat, whose sole zoning game and the way he is supposed to be played not to throw a fireball? It completely destroys his character, and practically any other shoto in the game. Add in the fact she can also reflect the fireballs or focus absorb to also gain Ultra meter. I have mad respect for Bonchan now because it's such a terrible matchup and he played amazingly well. The major problem with her meter gain is it gives Rose players way more opportunities to take risks. Throw out random EX Drills which can be FADC'd to make her safe and then proceed to gain those 3 bars back easily is one example.

I won't even get started on the teleport backdash and GOOJFC U2. The only thing I'll say on backdash is she can backdash Ryu's EX Fireball and have enough time to recover and focus the second hit of it. I don't think she should be majorly nerfed. She can keep her damage, her EX Drill through projectiles, her U2, and whatever else got buffed in Ultra. I would just tone down her meter gain via absorb and slightly reduce the speed/distance of her backdash.
 
A

alstein

Member
Sagat's the one char who can make Rose miss a lot of reflects due to the speed and variance in his tiger shots. It might be a little easier in Ultra for Rose due to Sagat's Tiger nerf, but the startup is still really good and the speed is fast.
 
I

Imm0rt4l

Member
BizzyBum said:
As a Ryu player, I've hated Rose for about a good 4 years now.. lol. It's just now with the Ultra buffs and a character specialist like Louffy winning EVO with her that people have finally started to realize how good she really is in the right hands.

I'm not knocking Louffy at all. Dude played out of his mind. He's also been playing Rose since Vanilla. Specializing in a single character for 5 years takes a lot of work and good for him.

However, I will say the match vs Bonchan showed how broken her meter gain is. She gains HALF A BAR of meter per fireball absorb. Louffy seemed to have his Super stocked within the first 10 seconds of each round. Now, the counter argument to this is "Stop throwing so many damn fireballs." Okay, so you want a character like Sagat, whose sole zoning game and the way he is supposed to be played not to throw a fireball? It completely destroys his character, and practically any other shoto in the game. Add in the fact she can also reflect the fireballs or focus absorb to also gain Ultra meter. I have mad respect for Bonchan now because it's such a terrible matchup and he played amazingly well. The major problem with her meter gain is it gives Rose players way more opportunities to take risks. Throw out random EX Drills which can be FADC'd to make her safe and then proceed to gain those 3 bars back easily is one example.

I won't even get started on the teleport backdash and GOOJFC U2. The only thing I'll say on backdash is she can backdash Ryu's EX Fireball and have enough time to recover and focus the second hit of it. I don't think she should be majorly nerfed. She can keep her damage, her EX Drill through projectiles, her U2, and whatever else got buffed in Ultra. I would just tone down her meter gain via absorb and slightly reduce the speed/distance of her backdash.
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This.
 
B

BotoxAgent

Member
BizzyBum said:
As a Ryu player, I've hated Rose for about a good 4 years now.. lol. It's just now with the Ultra buffs and a character specialist like Louffy winning EVO with her that people have finally started to realize how good she really is in the right hands.

I'm not knocking Louffy at all. Dude played out of his mind. He's also been playing Rose since Vanilla. Specializing in a single character for 5 years takes a lot of work and good for him.

However, I will say the match vs Bonchan showed how broken her meter gain is. She gains HALF A BAR of meter per fireball absorb. Louffy seemed to have his Super stocked within the first 10 seconds of each round. Now, the counter argument to this is "Stop throwing so many damn fireballs." Okay, so you want a character like Sagat, whose sole zoning game and the way he is supposed to be played not to throw a fireball? It completely destroys his character, and practically any other shoto in the game. Add in the fact she can also reflect the fireballs or focus absorb to also gain Ultra meter. I have mad respect for Bonchan now because it's such a terrible matchup and he played amazingly well. The major problem with her meter gain is it gives Rose players way more opportunities to take risks. Throw out random EX Drills which can be FADC'd to make her safe and then proceed to gain those 3 bars back easily is one example.

I won't even get started on the teleport backdash and GOOJFC U2. The only thing I'll say on backdash is she can backdash Ryu's EX Fireball and have enough time to recover and focus the second hit of it. I don't think she should be majorly nerfed. She can keep her damage, her EX Drill through projectiles, her U2, and whatever else got buffed in Ultra. I would just tone down her meter gain via absorb and slightly reduce the speed/distance of her backdash.
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I agree with all this. There were so many rounds where Bonchan was doing so well and on the verge of taking a round, but her ultra sucked all the momentum away from him. And her backlash is so silly. Her yolo ex drills reminded me of Latif's ex seismo derp in AE lol. Blocking need not apply :/
 
K

Kain

Member
Guys, yo do realize all that crazy meter gain only occurs when she fights chars with fireballs who actually use them, right? And that she has a shitty anti-air (down HP, because Soul throw is useless when not EX). And that she has a low damage output over all, you have to work A LOT to do something.

Of course she is going to rape fireball spammers, she was built for that. In SFA at that.

She has horrible match-ups, in fact, Luffy should have lost against the Fei Longs (not because of the match-up per se, but because of Fei Long not having any weaknesses), but he played perfectly and won, that's it.

Rose doesn't need any nerfs, try to play with her against a good Rufus, Yun, or any rushdown character like that and then come back. If you don't read and defend perfectly you are getting raped.
 
V

Vice

Member
BizzyBum said:
As a Ryu player, I've hated Rose for about a good 4 years now.. lol. It's just now with the Ultra buffs and a character specialist like Louffy winning EVO with her that people have finally started to realize how good she really is in the right hands.

I'm not knocking Louffy at all. Dude played out of his mind. He's also been playing Rose since Vanilla. Specializing in a single character for 5 years takes a lot of work and good for him.

However, I will say the match vs Bonchan showed how broken her meter gain is. She gains HALF A BAR of meter per fireball absorb. Louffy seemed to have his Super stocked within the first 10 seconds of each round. Now, the counter argument to this is "Stop throwing so many damn fireballs." Okay, so you want a character like Sagat, whose sole zoning game and the way he is supposed to be played not to throw a fireball? It completely destroys his character, and practically any other shoto in the game. Add in the fact she can also reflect the fireballs or focus absorb to also gain Ultra meter. I have mad respect for Bonchan now because it's such a terrible matchup and he played amazingly well. The major problem with her meter gain is it gives Rose players way more opportunities to take risks. Throw out random EX Drills which can be FADC'd to make her safe and then proceed to gain those 3 bars back easily is one example.

I won't even get started on the teleport backdash and GOOJFC U2. The only thing I'll say on backdash is she can backdash Ryu's EX Fireball and have enough time to recover and focus the second hit of it. I don't think she should be majorly nerfed. She can keep her damage, her EX Drill through projectiles, her U2, and whatever else got buffed in Ultra. I would just tone down her meter gain via absorb and slightly reduce the speed/distance of her backdash.
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Bonchan was throwing them from the incorrect difference. Sagat is one of the characters who can dominate against Rose in a fireball war because of the varying speeds.

Luffy just outplayed Bonchan straight up. It's probably an experience thing. Luffy gets access to a top Sagat but only Filipinoman is close to Luffy when it comes to Rose. Rose's U2 is fine, no worse than Sims U1.
 
O

Omnistalgic

Member
I played endless with Luffy on PSN way back, and I've played scrubby and good roses in Ultra. Roses has some terrible matchups....Perhaps her derby EX drill can be toned down a bit, but lets' not taking anything away from Luffy, he just played a string of perfect matches. It could have been momochi, or the gief, or one of the fei's, but it just happened to be luffy who was on a hot streak.

Having said that, I still hate Rose, but she's not OP in the slightest. In fact, people will probably pay attention to what's not safe with her now that scrubs will pick up rose online to see if they can win with her.
 
S

SUPBABY

Neo Member
First time posting here guys!

First time at Evo and it was a blast! I made it to winner's finals of my pool with Elena but then dropped the ball and lost in winners then losers. Wasn't as prepared for some matchups as I should have been but feel good about the matches I did win.
 
B

bigmit3737

Member
I was also shocked at how fast she builds meter and how powerful her Super is in terms of damage.

It also seems like the EVO top 8 players didn't really know how to punish certain things -

I'm curious as how he will fare once rose is under more scrutiny .
 
M

mbpm1

Member
BizzyBum said:
I have mad respect for Bonchan now because it's such a terrible matchup and he played amazingly well.
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Honestly, I don't think he had the right matchup experience. If he did he would have known to throw fireballs at different distances, and not kept throwing them at full screen where Rose can choose how to react to them or stood at distances where she could get safe-ish slides and drills for easy approaches. He definitely could have played that one better; I didn't feel like he had the right gameplan until 5 matches in when it was too late.
 
V

Vice

Member
bigmit3737 said:
I was also shocked at how fast she builds meter and how powerful her Super is in terms of damage.

It also seems like the EVO top 8 players didn't really know how to punish certain things -

I'm curious as how he will fare once rose is under more scrutiny .
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She can gain up to 35% more damage based on how many fireballs she absorbs through reflect. Bonchan was playing the match exactly how Luffy would want it to go.
 
C

chronosic

Member
So EVO got me hyped and I've decided to upgrade to Ultra. Only problem is that I'm currently without Xbox live gold. Anybody know of any deals for a sub?
 
B

bigmit3737

Member
Vice said:
She can gain up to 35% more damage based on how many fireballs she absorbs through reflect. Bonchan was playing the match exactly how Luffy would want it to go.
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I didn't get to watch the grand finals , but caught the rest of Top 8, from the matches I saw I remember saying to myself, " damn she always seems to have a super and my god it is strong."
 
S

Sheroking

Member
I don't know about vanilla Rose, but she's been good since Super. She has great buttons, good escapes, great meter game. She just always lacked a reversal for meaty pressure and damaging combos. She got both.

She's not OP. She's the very definition of what a high tier character is supposed to be. She doesn't put you in 50/50's, she doesn't unblockable you and she doesn't do 300 damage from a divekick. She just has high tier tools. She's always been my counter-pick for online Gouken's and Zangeif's. Have to study grand finals again and use her in the Sagat match too.
 
V

vulva

Member
As much as I love this game, I'm so happy I can take a break from it for a bit now. I'm probably not touching the game til it's on PC at this point.
 
V

vg260

Member
Kain said:
Guys, yo do realize all that crazy meter gain only occurs when she fights chars with fireballs who actually use them, right?
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This. (However your choice of a certain word I don't find belongs in intelligent discussion here and I hate seeing thrown around causally in that way.)

Spam fireballs carelessly, and she maxes out her meter quick. Just like if you do so vs. Dudley, he'll duck right through them. Both are meant to mess with fireball games, but if the timing if off they get hit. There's a risk in using those moves. If the fireballs are varied in speed and at a proper distance, it's not a given.

I think a lot of those crying foul about this aspect of Rose are coming at it from the perspective of having to adjust their game for her, which is exactly what her design is supposed to do, so it hampers the argument. I feel like this is a great chance for those who don't like the matchup to come out of the woodwork and nitpick in order to benefit themselves by an clamoring for a knee-jerk nerf on their best counter.

Sheroking said:
I don't know about vanilla Rose, but she's been good since Super. She has great buttons, good escapes, great meter game. She just always lacked a reversal for meaty pressure and damaging combos. She got both.

She's not OP. She's the very definition of what a high tier character is supposed to be. She doesn't put you in 50/50's, she doesn't unblockable you and she doesn't do 300 damage from a divekick. She's just has high tier tools. She's always been my counter-pick for online Gouken's and Zangeif's. Have to study grand finals again and use her in the Sagat match too.
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Yes. I think they got her right in terms of giving her just enough to compete without overdoing it. Her damage had always been anemic, and her EX didn't get that many more frames of invulnerability and can now be thrown, which keeps her wake-up game in-check. So it's fine.
 
S

Sayad

Member
hitsugi said:
This always happens, and then everyone either gets bored of the character (Rose is simply not my style at all) or they just don't want to put the effort in and they stop. It happens every. single. EVO. The character forum on SRK blows up and you see a ton of them online for a few weeks, then it's back to normal.
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I think you're underestimating Rose's ugliness, I've always liked the character from a gameplay perspective but dropped her because I couldn't stand looking at that face.
 
T

TheMink

Member
Edit: ^ yeah i never understood why her portrait looked so much different from her in game.

I dont know how you can justify a nerf for Rose when there was only one in top 10 and SnakeEyes Gief almost had her.
They were all talking about how Rufus figured out that matchup and that Gief shouldn't win but with just a little bit of thought Snake blew that up.
Probably what's going to happen to Rose soon.
Then she'll get nerfed and be severely underpowered when the top tier players had already figured her game out when she was at her prime.

Eh but I'm a trash tier player so what do i know.
 
A

alstein

Member
TheMink said:
Edit: ^ yeah i never understood why her portrait looked so much different from her in game.

I dont know how you can justify a nerf for Rose when there was only one in top 10 and SnakeEyes Gief almost had her.
They were all talking about how Rufus figured out that matchup and that Gief shouldn't win but with just a little bit of thought Snake blew that up.
Probably what's going to happen to Rose soon.
Then she'll get nerfed and be severely underpowered when the top tier players had already figured her game out when she was at her prime.

Eh but I'm a trash tier player so what do i know.
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Rose is a character that wasn't well regarded in Japan. That might explain the lack of matchup knowledge.
 
Z

zlatko

Banned
Is the Abel vs Rolento match up totally in Abels favor? I swear I lost like 20 some matches to a mediocre Abel at best. Granted my Rolento is not top shit by any means, but I could not set up any shenanigans.

I thought I could ex rainbow ball on wake up against Breathless, or on reaction, but you have to be in roll going forward for it to beat it out.

I tried crouching medium punch as well, but it loses out. I tried Ultra 1 on reaction to breathless, and all he had to do was let it go right away if he's close, or wait for one twirl of Rolento's baton to get breathless to beat out U1.

Punishing random QCB kick Abel was doing was tough. If I wasnt spaced correctly stand HK didn't beat it, and if I tried to punish it on block I needed proper spacing to get the Hk to punish it. What sucks though is crouching medium kick follow up to the standing HK wouldn't connect due to spacing.

Someone just reassure me that it's a bad match up for Rolento so I can feel less free. ; ;

P.S. What character do you guys think is the most similar to Urien ? I feel like it is Decapre if you use her U1, but then again no one in the cast is quite like him. :(
 
O

onionfrog

Member
Good games El-Sloth. I would have played more but I gotta get up early for work tomorrow.

I can't believe I messed up comboing off that focus attack in the last round. ;_;

On the up side, this is my second day playing Vega and he is actually really fun to use.
I used to hate playing charge characters, but playing Decapre got me used to it.
The main thing I don't like about vega so far is that you lose your charge on his reversal if you get crossed up. That shit is frustrating man.
 
E

El Sloth

Banned
Anyone wanna play on PSN? No XBL tonight because I'm too damn lazy to go and set up the 360 again.

onionfrog said:
Good games El-Sloth. I would have played more but I gotta get up early for work tomorrow.

I can't believe I messed up comboing off that focus attack in the last round. ;_;

On the up side, this is my second day playing Vega and he is actually really fun to use.
I used to hate playing charge characters, but playing Decapre got me used to it.
The main thing I don't like about vega so far is that you lose your charge on his reversal if you get crossed up. That shit is frustrating man.
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Ggs, it's cool. I think I did pretty okay for a ~45min Poison!

I like her a lot. She's got some decent normals, amazing fireballs, and a pretty nice overhead. Only thing I don't like is her rekkas because for some reason my hands become retarded trying to do rekka motions. God damn do I hate rekka motions.
CountBlackule said:
Damn, I've been using Rose for like a solid month straight and never knew she got damage boosts off of absorbing projectiles


yoooooo
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Only for the first projectile you throw afterwards. You can stack up the reflect boosts something like 6-7 times I think. It also ups the damage on her Super.
 
G

Gr1mLock

Passing metallic gas
El Sloth said:
Anyone wanna play on PSN? No XBL tonight because I'm too damn lazy to go and set up the 360 again.


Ggs, it's cool. I think I did pretty okay for a ~45min Poison!

I like her a lot. She's got some decent normals, amazing fireballs, and a pretty nice overhead. Only thing I don't like is her rekkas because for some reason my hands become retarded trying to do rekka motions. God damn do I hate rekka motions.
Click to expand...

As a Yang player I can tell you the secret to rekkas is buffering whatever normal youre canceling into a rekka as one uniform motion. You'll be surprised how much time you have left to confirm and do two more.
 
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