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UN and NATO to Gaddafi: Operation Odyssey Dawn |OT|

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C

Canova

Banned
Meus Renaissance said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/20/coalition-criticism-arab-league-libya?CMP=twt_fd

America, France and Britain – the leaders of the coalition's air attacks on Libya – were struggling to maintain international support for their actions, as they faced stinging criticism about mission creep from the leader of the Arab League, as well as from China and Russia.

Critics claimed that the coalition of the willing may have been acting disproportionately and had come perilously close to making Gaddafi's departure an explicit goal of UN policy.

Russia, which abstained on the UN vote last week, called for "an end to indiscriminate force".

Despite denials from coalition forces, Alexander Lukashevich, Russia's foreign ministry spokesman, said that the coalition had hit non-military targets.

He suggested that 48 civilians had been killed. "We believe a mandate given by the UN security council resolution – a controversial move in itself – should not be used to achieve goals outside its provisions, which only see measures necessary to protect civilian population," he said.

The Arab League secretary general, Amr Moussa, also startled western governments when he denounced the air attacks only a week after the league had called for creation of a no-fly zone.

Moussa, who is a candidate for the Egyptian presidency, said: "What has happened in Libya differs from the goal of imposing a no-fly zone and what we want is the protection of civilians and not bombing other civilians."


The Foreign Office later said Moussa claimed he had been misquoted, or had put his criticism more strongly in Arabic than in English. "We will continue to work with our Arab partners to enforce the resolution for the good of the Libyan people," the FO said.

The Arab League had, though, been called to an emergency session to discuss the scale of the attacks.​
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hahahaha..... see how easy they twist it around.
 
T

theignoramus

Member
Roude Leiw said:
interesting that the russians "know" what kind of targets the coalition hit and that they are citing reports from a state run propaganda channel.
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they dont have the credibility to even speak on the issue of indiscriminate bombing, what they did in Grozny a few years ago makes "Shock and Awe" look like a humanitarian operation.
 
W

Wazzim

Banned
Unless the Arab league actually does something about the things happening in their own fucking region, they can go fuck themselves really.
 
S

Souldriver

Member
Well, that's a pretty hypocritical stance. 'We want you to protect civilians, but we don't want you to act on it."


The support of the Arab League is pretty important, so the fighting countries and the League better get their heads together.
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
They won't support the airstrikes: #1, it makes it sound like corrupt regimes should be taken down and most of them run corrupt regimes, and #2 it gives them something for the population to be angry about other than their own governments, and #3 even if they supported it they would say the opposite publicly.
 
Joel Was Right

Joel Was Right

Gold Member
Whilst we're on this subject of elevating the importance of the support by the Arabs, if we're on theme of protecting civilians, what attention is being given to the Shias in Bahrain who were met by Saudi troops? What is the policy on that if Saudi soldiers then shoot at those?
 
J

Jason's Ultimatum

Member
The Arab League needs to fucking make up their goddamn mind up. You either want our help or not. If not, then you go into Libya by yourselves and deal with Gaddafi, assholes.
 
C

Chichikov

Member
jGVwN.jpg


Stay classy, The Sun.
 
T

teruterubozu

Member
Jason's Ultimatum said:
The Arab League needs to fucking make up their goddamn mind up. You either want our help or not. If not, then you go into Libya by yourselves and deal with Gaddafi, assholes.
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Either that or we need to make up our own minds about this Middle East shit. It's getting compulsive.
 
T

theignoramus

Member
Amr Moussa rebuffed by a rebel spokesman:
More than 8,000 Libyans aligned with the rebel movement that rose up against Muammar Gaddafi have been killed in the revolt against his rule, a spokesman for the rebel movement told Al Jazeera Sunday.

"Our dead and martyrs number more than 8,000 killed," Abdel Hafiz Ghoga said.

He criticized Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa over comments that appeared to be critical of military action by the United States and its allies against Libya.

The Arab League had called for the imposition of a no-fly zone over Libya to protect civilians from Gaddafi's forces but Moussa Sunday condemned "the bombardment of civilians."

"What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians," Egypt's state news agency quoted Moussa as saying.

Ghoga said: "Today, when the secretary general spoke, I was surprised."

"What is the mechanism that stops the extermination of the people in Libya, what is the mechanism, Mr. Secretary General? If the protection of civilians is not a humanitarian obligation, what is the mechanism that you propose to us?" he asked.
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/20/us-libya-east-toll-idUSTRE72J43620110320
 
E

exarkun

Member
Jason's Ultimatum said:
The Arab League needs to fucking make up their goddamn mind up. You either want our help or not. If not, then you go into Libya by yourselves and deal with Gaddafi, assholes.
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I think they're ok with Qaddafi as long as the country is still producing the oil that supports the region's power but I think they are afraid of the rebellion spilling over. Thus they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Let this shit continue and it could continue the oil being pumped or everything could go to hell in a handbasket and before long the entirety of north africa is dealing with this.

They maliciously use each other, I'm surprised the arab league was able to agree in the first place. The subsequent backpedaling and loss of support is more the arab league's style.
 
T

thefro

Member
NBC News reporting tonight (per Pentagon sources) that Allies have essentially destroyed all of Gaddafi's air capabilities and are now focusing on taking out Gaddafi's tanks/artilltery and his command & control structure.

Sounds like the attacks have been continuous and a whole lot more US planes are involved than originally reported.
 
W

Wazzim

Banned
exarkun said:
They maliciously use each other, I'm surprised the arab league was able to agree in the first place. The subsequent backpedaling and loss of support is more the arab league's style.
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Well, outside of Algeria and Syria, all countries agreed on the no-fly zone. Some even were in Paris at the meeting before the operations began...
 
R

RustyNails

Member
gutter_trash said:
the Arab League is full of crap; they don't even care about Palestinians living outside of Palestine in refugee camps or treated like 3rd class citizens in other Arab countries

all they care about is self preservation

NATO and UN can go about their business IMO
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.
All that needs to be said about this matter, pretty much.

The governing body itself displays legitimacy, but taken piece by piece, its one dictator after another worried about the pro-democracy protests in his own country. I've realized that their support was needed for symbolic purposes. I think OIC is much more important, global and legitimate.
 
A

AndyD

aka andydumi
goomba said:
SInce when did "no-fly zone" mean bombing the hell out of a country?
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Since you need to bomb anti air guns that have been firing at the planes trying to enforce the no fly zone.
 
W

Walshicus

Member
goomba said:
SInce when did "no-fly zone" mean bombing the hell out of a country?
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The no-fly zone is a component of the resolution, which authorises all states to ensure that civilians - particularly those in Benghazi and other towns under the jurisdiction of the NTC - are protected.
 
Joel Was Right

Joel Was Right

Gold Member
RustyNails said:
.
All that needs to be said about this matter, pretty much.

The governing body itself displays legitimacy, but taken piece by piece, its one dictator after another worried about the pro-democracy protests in his own country. I've realized that their support was needed for symbolic purposes. I think OIC is much more important, global and legitimate.
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As I noted, whilst I understand gutter_trash's point, the logic that a body of countries can lose legitimacy in their complaints because of being selective in their complaints directly expands to the allied forces here, as we've covered extensively. The explanation offered in support of the western attitude is that they need to be strategic in what they do in public as opposed to in private, need to think ahead in regards to the geopolitics of the situation. The Arab League appearing, on the surface, critical or uncomfortable by this does not surprise me. As we learnt from the cable leaks a few months ago, some of them say one thing outwardly to their public and another in private to their western allies. But the idea that they lose legitimacy because they are being selective or flip flopping is not one you can defend, especially in this context
 
N

[Nintex]

Member
I've read up on different wars. During the first strike on Iraq the US fired 40 tomahawk missles. In this attack they fired over 100 missles. I recall a message that 20 out of 22 targets in Lybia were hit. Did they strike every place with 5+ missles and a bunch of Eurofighters and Stealths or are they not telling the full story.
 
S

Salazar

Member
Meus Renaissance said:
As I noted, whilst I understand gutter_trash's point, the logic that a body of countries can lose legitimacy in their complaints because of being selective in their complaints directly expands to the allied forces here, as we've covered extensively.
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But that "legitimacy" is predicated on an idealistic understanding of the forcible spread of democracy that nobody sane or informed is arguing for. Never mind "losing" it; I'd be happy to hand most of it over free of charge.

I don't criticise the Arab League for being "selective" in their decisions. I criticise them for being petulant and myopic.
 
R

Roude Leiw

Member
[Nintex] said:
I've read up on different wars. During the first strike on Iraq the US fired 40 tomahawk missles. In this attack they fired over 100 missles. I recall a message that 20 out of 22 targets in Lybia were hit. Did they strike every place with 5+ missles and a bunch of Eurofighters and Stealths or are they not telling the full story.
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sounds reasonable to me that you need 5 missiles for one AA defense system. normally they consist of a radar, a launcher, a command center and a reloader. they dont stand right next to each other. there can be around 100meters between them (or even more).
i think the fighter jets attacked and destroyed airports, military bases, weapon storages etc.
 
R

R2D4

Banned
Of course like clock work Russia and China would have a problem with it. When you have good guys and bad guys someone has to be the bad guys.
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
BBC said:
#
0051: He appealed for more foreign help: "The international community has to take its responsibility for Libyan citizens in Misrata. If they don't, they will die. Believe me, they will die. It has to take its responsibility in front of the civilians, it has to do something. 1973 said protect the civilians. Protect us please."
#
0049: The doctor in Misrata said the international coalition was not responsible for any civilian deaths or injuries. "I know the areas where they bombed. All of the casualties came from areas which were being bombed by Gaddafi militants."
#
0046: The doctor added: "Our medical team has been working non-stop since last Tuesday. They are so exhausted. Our resources are almost finished. We ask the international community to at least secure passage for medical supplies and food. We have no water. Yesterday, there were 16 civilian deaths. Today, there were seven civilian deaths. All the injuries you could imagine - head, chest, laparotomy, crushed limbs and amputations. I haven't got the resources to sustain them. In two or three days, I will have to leave all the injured patients dying and bleeding. I have no more resources."
#
0043: Earlier, a doctor at a hospital in Misrata, Libya's third city, told BBC Radio 5 live that the city was being attacked by forces loyal to Col Gaddafi. "Since early morning [on Sunday], they have been bombarding everything - all the buildings, all the homes, nobody is secure in this city," he said. "Gaddafi's militants and more than 25 tanks have been entering and bombarding the city. There are snipers all over. If you leave your front door, you are a target. I am not secure in the hospital and I cannot go home. I have not seen my family for a week. There is no secure way to get home."
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.
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
ConfusingJazz said:
Why did it take me this long to realize your username was "Manos: The Hans of Fate" and not Hands?
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It always should have been Hands, but my D key wasn't working when I registered. I figured it was now sort of a Simpsons/MST3K references too, so I figured I might as well keep it. :)
 
C

ConfusingJazz

Member
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
It always should have been Hands, but my D key wasn't working when I registered. I figured it was now sort of a Simpsons/MST3K references too, so I figured I might as well keep it. :)
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Still, <insert Scanners head explosion .gif here>
 
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