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[meadowrag]

Not if you just spent the last month shitting on Gaddafi because you thought he was going to be easily ousted. The guy is just crazy enough to start an oil embargo, which would be disastrous for BP, for example.

Gadoofus has bigger problems than oil to worry about right now.

 

[jonremedy]

Please forgive my ignorance ahead of time because I have not kept up much with this situation so I don't know all the details.

But why in god's name are we (the U.S) participating in the bombing of Libya?

Don't we have enough problems around the globe right now? Why are spending more of our money getting involved in another conflict?

Furthermore, why are France and Britain the countries that seem to be taking point in this operation?

I thought I read that France dropped the first bomb. Are you kidding me??? FRANCE???

You know, the same France who refused to support the U.S. in Iraq. I've contended all along that France and Germany refused their support in Iraq because they had their own contracts with Iraq and Saddam Hussein, along with having their hands in the Oil For Food cookie jar. Now all of a sudden France seems to be spearheading the bombing of Libya and wants our support? FUCK YOU FRANCE. And fuck anyone else who thinks the U.S. should be involved in this.

And don't give me any of your plays on morality either. Saddam Hussein killed many more of his own people in much more brutal ways, but you couldn't be bothered to give the U.S. any support when they asked for it.

So again, I'm quite prepared to get flamed and told that I've got it all wrong, because I am quite ignorant of the situation, but these are my initial thoughts on what I've seen on the surface.

You admit to having no idea what's going on, then proceeds to curse out others who do know what's going on? You do not even warrant a proper response to your post.

 

[RustyNails]

Everyone needs to take a major step back. There are multiple instances of "fuck you" on this page. This is not an acceptable form of discourse.

If you want to continue posting, please treat others with respect...even if you think they are nuts.

With this, I want someone to write a detailed background of the events that led up to NATO action starting from the peaceful demonstrations in early february, so that I can put it in the OP (with credit to the poster's name). Please hit all the right notes, including Gaddafi's planned massacre in Benghazi. We can save a lot of 'fuck yous' to each other when we have proper understanding of the context behind NATO action and don't have to repeat explaining the reasons behind NATO actions over and over.

 

[bill0527]

Actually, fuck you for being stupid enough to compare Iraq with Libya.

Then enlighten me as to why we need to bomb Libya?

In the case of Iraq, Hussein started wars with every single one of his neighbors, launched missiles into Israel, invaded Kuwait in an attempt to take over their oil fields, gassed and butchered his own people, broke the UN mandated no-fly zone in Iraq multiple times, kicked UN weapons inspectors out of his country multiple times, and violated over 13 UN security council resolutions before the Iraq invasion.

So I'm curious to know exactly what Libya has done.

 

[Roude Leiw]

You admit to having no idea what's going on, then proceeds to curse out others who do know what's going on? You do not even warrant a proper response to your post.

.

is there a cnn or bbc live stream?

 

[dalin80]

The French and British are pushing for this because of those Oil contracts. Your Armchair speculation may have predicted a quick end to the rebellion, but much smarter people higher up may have predicted something else based on information that you or I don't have access to.

Trying reading the thread idiot, Britain has lost massive and awesome oil contracts by standing against gadaffi. France and Italy also win nothing through this action as they have also have lost good oil contracts.

 

[RustyNails]

So I'm curious to know exactly what Libya has done.

We had information from some weapons inspectors that Gaddafi was going to set off dirty bombs in Europe, which is why we as USA had to take pre-emptive measures against him.

 

[Walshicus]

Please forgive my ignorance ahead of time because I have not kept up much with this situation so I don't know all the details.

But why in god's name are we (the U.S) participating in the bombing of Libya?

Don't we have enough problems around the globe right now? Why are spending more of our money getting involved in another conflict?

Furthermore, why are France and Britain the countries that seem to be taking point in this operation?

I thought I read that France dropped the first bomb. Are you kidding me??? FRANCE???

You know, the same France who refused to support the U.S. in Iraq. I've contended all along that France and Germany refused their support in Iraq because they had their own contracts with Iraq and Saddam Hussein, along with having their hands in the Oil For Food cookie jar. Now all of a sudden France seems to be spearheading the bombing of Libya and wants our support? FUCK YOU FRANCE. And fuck anyone else who thinks the U.S. should be involved in this.

And don't give me any of your plays on morality either. Saddam Hussein killed many more of his own people in much more brutal ways, but you couldn't be bothered to give the U.S. any support when they asked for it.

So again, I'm quite prepared to get flamed and told that I've got it all wrong, because I am quite ignorant of the situation, but these are my initial thoughts on what I've seen on the surface.

Iraq in 2003 was a brutal police state, but presented no danger en masse to its civilian population. France largely deemed the action against Iraq in 2003 to counter productive.

Libya in 2011 is undergoing a popular uprising against Gadaffi in which Gadaffi has responded with mass violence against his dissenting civilian populations. For weeks his diplomats and ministers resigned in protest of his actions and called for UN action against the regime's military. Gadaffi used this time to bring in African mercenaries paid for with oil revenue.

Britain and France are involved because:
1) The Humanitarian crisis was present and at risk of escalation.
2) Libya is on Europe's border.
3) The Libyan people [free from the police state] and much of its political élites requested our assistance. Tens of thousands of people didn't chant "Sarkozy, Sarkozy" in Benghazi the night of the UN resolution for nothing.



So no, this isn't like Iraq in 2003. As stated many times before, this is like Iraq in 1991 when the West encouraged an uprising against Saddam and then refused to assist as hundred of thousands were gassed and "cleansed" by that regime.

 

[WickedAngel]

With this, I want someone to write a detailed background of the events that led up to NATO action starting from the peaceful demonstrations in early february, so that I can put it in the OP (with credit to the poster's name). Please hit all the right notes, including Gaddafi's planned massacre in Benghazi. We can save a lot of 'fuck yous' to each other when we have proper understanding of the context behind NATO action and don't have to repeat explaining the reasons behind NATO actions over and over.

Proper context could be had by anyone that possessed the wherewithal to actually spend five minutes looking into it. One would think people who felt the need to comment would have done said research to prevent themselves from looking like imbeciles.

 

[Zenith]

People comparing this to Iraq or saying it's about oil are sooooooooooooo simple. It's such a shallow viewpoint that could only be held if you know nothing about Libya or the current situation.

Because he has his own opinion? smh. I can confirm that a good amount of people living in countries like the DDR did like their lives. They especially liked that live wasn't about materialism like in the capitalist countries.

Not to Godwin it but holocaust deniers get banned. And the USSR killed more than the Nazis. He's claiming only the normal number of criminals were executed after a fair trial and that there were no gulags. Trying to play this down as "oh, it's only his opinion (that millions of innocent people weren't butchered)" is disgusting.

 

[sphagnum]

Please forgive my ignorance ahead of time because I have not kept up much with this situation so I don't know all the details.

But why in god's name are we (the U.S) participating in the bombing of Libya?

Don't we have enough problems around the globe right now? Why are spending more of our money getting involved in another conflict?

Furthermore, why are France and Britain the countries that seem to be taking point in this operation?

I thought I read that France dropped the first bomb. Are you kidding me??? FRANCE???

You know, the same France who refused to support the U.S. in Iraq. I've contended all along that France and Germany refused their support in Iraq because they had their own contracts with Iraq and Saddam Hussein, along with having their hands in the Oil For Food cookie jar. Now all of a sudden France seems to be spearheading the bombing of Libya and wants our support? FUCK YOU FRANCE. And fuck anyone else who thinks the U.S. should be involved in this.

And don't give me any of your plays on morality either. Saddam Hussein killed many more of his own people in much more brutal ways, but you couldn't be bothered to give the U.S. any support when they asked for it.

So again, I'm quite prepared to get flamed and told that I've got it all wrong, because I am quite ignorant of the situation, but these are my initial thoughts on what I've seen on the surface.

France is doing it to save face with regards to Tunisia, and because Sarkozy wants to whip up support in the upcoming elections. Also gives them a chance to show off the Rafale, which they've had trouble selling (I think).

 

[danwarb]

Then enlighten me as to why we need to bomb Libya?

In the case of Iraq, Hussein started wars with every single one of his neighbors, launched missiles into Israel, invaded Kuwait in an attempt to take over their oil fields, gassed and butchered his own people, broke the UN mandated no-fly zone in Iraq multiple times, kicked UN weapons inspectors out of his country multiple times, and violated over 13 UN security council resolutions before the Iraq invasion.

So I'm curious to know exactly what Libya has done.

Using the Libyan air force to bomb protesters/civilians? Enforcing the no-fly zone apparently requires the bombing of anti-aircraft facilities. That's what the cruise missiles were used for.

 

[Incognito]

http://www.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/obama-s-first-new-war-20110319

...Obama had dinner with his combat commanders, and solicited their input about what challenges the military would face. At 9 p.m. that night, he reconvened only his principals. (Clinton was represented by her deputy, James Steinberg.) Donilon laid out his proposals. After about an hour, the Situation Room had come to a rough consensus: a no fly zone wouldn’t work, but more words would not work either. Obama instructed his U.N. ambassador, Susan Rice, to inform the Security Council that France’s resolution, which called for a no fly zone and little else, was insufficient. He asked the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mike Mullen, to turn into him by the next evening a Concept of Operation Plan, or CONPLAN, for a NATO-executed military campaign in Libya that would be assisted by Arab countries.

In closed session at the U.N., Rice laid out the U.S. position. The situation was urgent and dire. But the world had to know precisely what it would mean to keep Libyan troops from murdering their own citizens. Any resolution would have to include language authorizing strikes against Libyan military infrastructure on the ground to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe. “We are not going to hide pooch,” Rice said in the meeting, according to a U.S. official. “We must be completely clear about what we are going to do and why.” And Arab countries must participate, she insisted, in some visible way, in the campaign. She proposed a number of amendments that added significant heft to the resolution.

For the next 24 hours, Clinton and Rice tag-teamed Arab countries and members of the Security Council. They argued that if nothing was done, despots and beleaguered leaders everywhere would vow never to repeat the “mistake” of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, who yielded power without foreign military intervention. Iran, in particular, would find itself with an incentive to continue to spread its proxy forces to other countries and further repress its own citizens. And Rice has made the reinvigoration of the United Nations one of her prime goals as ambassador. The legitimacy of that body was at stake too, she argued.

On Wednesday, at about 6:30 p.m., Mullen and Donilon presented Obama with their CONPLAN for Libya. Its contents are mostly classified; an official said the air strikes on Saturday were one part of a larger campaign that includes a variety of overt and covert actions. Published reports suggest that U.K. special operations forces were secreted in the country, scouting out the battlefield in preparation for air strikes. The U.S. Air Force Special Operations Command moved several tactical air teams to a small base on Crete. In order to try and disguise their movements, the U.S. planes changed their call signs once they entered airspace over the Mediterranean, but commercial software that tracks their transponders revealed the shift, and word leaked out on Twitter. These teams would coordinate the air assault but are capable of parachuting into a region and directing them from the ground.

On Friday, the U.S. moved a Rivet Joint signals intelligence plane to Souda Air Base on a Greek Island, bearing the provocative call sign of “SNOOP 55.” Subs capable of launching Tomahawk missiles idled near Italy. The USS Florida, armed with more than 100 Tomahawks, moved into firing range. Twenty four hours after the U.S. introduced its amendments, it got its resolution, 10-0. Obama spoke with his counterparts in France and the UK and agreed that they’d give Qadaffi 24 hours to turn heel and retreat. If he didn’t, France would begin the bombardment.

 

[RustyNails]

Proper context could be had by anyone that possessed the wherewithal to actually spend five minutes looking into it. One would think people who felt the need to comment would have done said research to prevent themselves from looking like imbeciles.

It's a fact of life that people will refuse to spend 5 minutes to research the topic, and instead barf out the first thing that comes to their mouths. Some may be genuinely interested, but others just watched the headline on CNN while they were shifting channels from weekend NASCAR and immediately thought of going online and start writing stuff. If we have an established context in the first post, we can direct such posters to the OP without having to repeat the same answers ad nauseam.

 

[j_k_redtail]

Proper context could be had by anyone that possessed the wherewithal to actually spend five minutes looking into it. One would think people who felt the need to comment would have done said research to prevent themselves from looking like imbeciles.

As much as I agree that the proper information is available all over the web, especially for those who have entered the thread, flaming away, while admitting their own ignorance - I think all readers would be better served by a short summary.

Spoiler

I don't have the time to write one, though.

 

[bill0527]

Using the Libyan air force to bomb protesters/civilians? Enforcing the no-fly zone apparently requires the bombing of anti-aircraft facilities. That's what the cruise missiles were used for.

Ok thank you. My apologies for the hostility. It was simply a gut reaction because I don't think the U.S. should be getting involved in any other conflicts right now.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Please forgive my ignorance ahead of time because I have not kept up much with this situation so I don't know all the details.

But why in god's name are we (the U.S) participating in the bombing of Libya?

Don't we have enough problems around the globe right now? Why are spending more of our money getting involved in another conflict?

Furthermore, why are France and Britain the countries that seem to be taking point in this operation?

I thought I read that France dropped the first bomb. Are you kidding me??? FRANCE???

You know, the same France who refused to support the U.S. in Iraq. I've contended all along that France and Germany refused their support in Iraq because they had their own contracts with Iraq and Saddam Hussein, along with having their hands in the Oil For Food cookie jar. Now all of a sudden France seems to be spearheading the bombing of Libya and wants our support? FUCK YOU FRANCE. And fuck anyone else who thinks the U.S. should be involved in this.

And don't give me any of your plays on morality either. Saddam Hussein killed many more of his own people in much more brutal ways, but you couldn't be bothered to give the U.S. any support when they asked for it.

So again, I'm quite prepared to get flamed and told that I've got it all wrong, because I am quite ignorant of the situation, but these are my initial thoughts on what I've seen on the surface.

Maybe you are not old enough to know this but: there is such a thing called elections in France, and different parties are elected based on who the majority voted for. I suggest you read the article on Wikipedia.

Also, another thing you might not know, is that just because different sports each have nets, it doesn't make them the same sport.

 

[Canova]

Now you are correct about having an exit-strategy in war situations. We also don't know if Gaddafi will even fall. But the problem is, we're not even entering the place on ground, so we don't need an exit-strategy. This is an aerial campaign analogous to Gulf War 1 (Operation Desert Storm), Operation Deny Flight and Operation Allied Assault, so we do not need an exit-strategy. What we need is an 'end state', and that state at the moment is unclear. Secondly, the Rebels took control of almost all of Libya prior to the NATO intervention. They were only pushed back due to sustained bombardment and shelling of their towns. There's no reason to believe that they will not be able to mount a counter-offensive under the shield of NATO air cover. All the indicators point towards rebels retaking the offense, and it's only a matter of time before Gaddafi's military apparatus is completely disabled.

So you're saying we should have risked it? Lets see how many people he'd have cleansed?

Exit strategy is just a term. In this case, the end of involvement at current situation. You're not necessarily have to be on the ground to have an exit strategy.

So what is it? Let say Ghaddafi mount an all out assault to Benghazi? what now? increase air assault, but what about civilians casualties? How's Arab medias who are already biased against the West spin this? etc, etc

This is just stupid, stupid, stupid involvement. Have we not learned from Iraqi campaigns?

World policing bullshit!!!! Let the Arab worlds be, if they want to fuck themselves up, let them be

 

[theignoramus]

Meanwhile, Yemen's president fires entire cabinet

Mubarak did the same, shortly before he was ousted. It's a meaningless guesture since he, not the people, appoints the new cabinet

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Mubarak did the same, shortly before he was ousted. It's a meaningless guesture since he, not the people, appoints the new cabinet

indeed.

 

[Ether_Snake]

6.54pm: Muammar Gaddafi's armed forces have announced that they will begin a ceasefire at 7pm (GMT).

7.02pm: The ceasefire statement issued by the Libyan regime was accompanied by a call on the country's tribes to take part in a march from Tripoli to Benghazi for talks on reconciliation

A regime spokesman, Ibrahim Moussa, read out the statement, saying: "We, the Popular Social Leadership of Libya, recommend to the armed forces to announce an immediate ceasefire to all military units."

.

 

[RustyNails]

8:04pm

Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught, reporting from Tripoli, says she is unable to confirm claims of the Gaddafi regime that last night's bombardment deliberately targeted civilians. She told us:

"International press, despite repeated requests, have not been allowed to go to the sites of the airstrikes and can't corroborate in any way what happened last night."

We can't let those journalists get there right now!

 

[raphier]

Another Ceasefire declared!

And they want civilians make a peaceful march from tripoli to benghazi. Sounds like an ambush or something.

 

[justjohn]

Why the fuck are the Belgians involved in this?

 

[L0st Id3ntity]

So sad watching tripoli bombarded, I hope he's done asap.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Why the fuck are the Belgians involved in this?

every UN member is allowed to take actions to protect the Libyan people.

 

[Canova]

Number one is incorrect, this time it involves the Arab League, as well as backing by the UN. Iraq had neither and was considered a unilateral intervention. Broadly you are correct, but looking at the actual details you are wrong.

Hiding in a hole isn't considered rallying your people. The same with Gaddafi, he lost the will of the people a long time ago.

Iraq is a occupation, Libya is by definition considered a multilateral humanitarian intervention. Quite a big difference.

Number four we have no real control over. If they want to make it this way they can. The real issue here is liberation, not Christians versus Muslims.

Number five if you have been paying attention the Arab world is in the midst of a revolution. . Most of the people are looking for a change. So while they might be mad at the west, it appears they are infuriated with their own leadership.

If indeed Arab League who pushed for no-fly zone, then let Arab League send their own jets to Libya. Let them use those hundreds jet fighters they bought from the U.S

So far I have not seen one Arab country got involved in this military action

 

[Roude Leiw]

If indeed Arab League who pushed for no-fly zone, then let Arab League send their own jets to Libya. Let them use those hundreds jet fighters they bought from the U.S

So far I have not seen one Arab country got involved in this military action

qatar and the uae will join shortly.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

We can't let those journalists get there right now!

Funny thing was Nic Robertson on CNN was saying state TV footage was actually only showing injuried Armed Forces member in uniforms (well duh).

 

[Canova]

qatar and the uae will join shortly.

They should've been leading this, not the French, the U.S, the UK, etc.

Let them be the headliner of the military action, should not be the West. It's a problem in their own backyard. It's time for those cowards to deal with their own fuck-ups

 

[raphier]

They should've been leading this, not the French, the U.S, the UK, etc.

Let them be the headliner of the military action, should not be the West. It's a problem in their own backyard. It's time for those cowards to deal with their own fuck-ups

I don't think Ghaddafi is UAE's fuck-up in the first place...

 

[CrazyDude]

They should've been leading this, not the French, the U.S, the UK, etc.

Let them be the headliner of the military action, should not be the West. It's a problem in their own backyard. It's time for those cowards to deal with their own fuck-ups

Europe is in Libya's backyard too.

 

[Godslay]

Europe is in Libya's backyard too.

It was established yesterday that it actually isn't. LOL.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

It was established yesterday that it actually isn't. LOL.

That map lol

 

[nyong]

People comparing this to Iraq or saying it's about oil are sooooooooooooo simple. It's such a shallow viewpoint that could only be held if you know nothing about Libya or the current situation.

Our explicit motivations might be different, but the situation we may find ourselves in militarily strongly resembles post-Kuwait Iraq. This conflict may well end in yet another American-enforced no-fly zone, ala Southern Watch. Hopefully not for over a decade this time around. Many Western countries--including Germany--rely heavily upon Libyan oil, much like the French had relied on Iraqi oil. If the UN votes for sanctions against Libya, this could very well turn into Oil for Food 2.0.

Now it's possible that the rebels will win and none of this will happen. It's possible that the 1 million Gaddafi claims to be arming right now--for a prolonged war--will fail. It's not a guarantee, though.

 

[Neo C.]

The first page was like

But now it's just irritating. The discussion is going places, my god...

 

[Doc Evils]

BBC just posted this link to wall street journal which describes the rebels are and what they want:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703292304576212742401472186.html

 

[Your Excellency]

Bahrain video:

Probably graphic, not safe for work, etc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-4uXkbDhis

 

[Canova]

Europe is in Libya's backyard too.

nope, by its true definition

Arab League
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League

Europe = EU

 

[jamieson87]

Just seen this posted on facebook -

Dear David Cameron .. the RAF & their planes .. the NAVY & their ships .. that you have sent to Libya WE NEED THEM .. the ARMY in Afghanistan .. WE NEED THEM .. LEAVE OUR ARMED FORCES ALONE .. what we DONT need is you & your muppets cutting them!!! .. then stretching them by sending them to wars that have nothing to do with us... repost if sick of government treating armed forces like the are nothing !!! .

The people who spout this nonsense have no idea what they are saying, wow.

 

[L0st Id3ntity]

Bahrain video:

Probably graphic, not safe for work, etc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-4uXkbDhis

That's a month old and irrelevant, bahrain has it's own thread.

 

[CrazyDude]

nope, by its true definition

Arab League
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League

Europe = EU

I am talking about geography not organizations.
Also if we are talking about organizations,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations

 

[Your Excellency]

That's a month old and irrelevant, bahrain has it's own thread.

I'm sorry :'(

 

[Mael]

France is doing it to save face with regards to Tunisia, and because Sarkozy wants to whip up support in the upcoming elections. Also gives them a chance to show off the Rafale, which they've had trouble selling (I think).

People should stop spreading misinformation, seriously at this point nothing short of massive delivery of BJ machines to people's home would garner support, at best he's actually trying to prevent erosion of his support.
AND then there's also the fact that no general election here as been won on foreign affairs since the whole Algeria imbroglio.
Lybia ain't gonna change that.

And seriously thee's people here that are against the nofly zone?
WTF!

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Has any other countries (UK, France, etc) given a press breifing similar to the DOD one yesterday?

 

[dalin80]

Has any other countries (UK, France, etc) given a press breifing similar to the DOD one yesterday?

Dont know about france but the UK's MoD are typically more reserved in giving details.

 

[danwarb]

Has any other countries (UK, France, etc) given a press breifing similar to the DOD one yesterday?

Here's a MOD update: http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/LibyaUpdate.htm

 

[L0st Id3ntity]

I dont understand Arabs sometimes.

BBC just interviewed a Libyan doctor who is against Gadaffi AND wants a No fly Zone and logistics.

BUT he is against Bombing!?! So, he wants the jets to fly CLUELESS!!

What can't you understand? He merely wants gaddafi to be unable to use his airforce.

 

[raphier]

What can't you understand? He merely wants gaddafi to be unable to use his airforce.

But to do that you first must make sure your fighters can shoot them down without being in constant danger. that's where the so called contradiction happens.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

The Arab League has been kind of silly about this whole thing. You can't support a no-fly zone in one statement then express reservations about airstrikes two seconds later.

You don't establish air superiority with harsh language.