RustyNails
Member
2nd defection in Libya:
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UN and NATO to Gaddafi: Operation Odyssey Dawn |OT|
- Thread starter RustyNails
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Statement of the Transitional National Council on Counter-Terrorism (Libyan Opposition)
j_k_redtail
Member
More senior Libyans to defect within daysRustyNails said:
I'm not sure how much this matters, though. Yes, the regime is finally falling apart, but the loyalists in the population support Daffy himself, not his band of merry men. Ultimately either he has to give up, or his followers do.
You could take it as a sign that things are much worse in Tripoli than we've been led to believe by the regime's spokesmen. But I'm not sure.
Found a video of a rebel tortured and then executed for refusing to hail Gaddafi and instead saying Allah Akbar "God is Greater", very graphic video since they shot their prisoners in the foot (Many people from Misrata reported this method)
Graphic Video of Rebel resisting (Youtube)
This remind me of Bellal, the companion of prophet Mohammed pbuh when he was being tortured for being a muslim and all he said is Ahad "The only one" meaning only one god.
Graphic Video of Rebel resisting (Youtube)
This remind me of Bellal, the companion of prophet Mohammed pbuh when he was being tortured for being a muslim and all he said is Ahad "The only one" meaning only one god.
lo escondido
Apartheid is, in fact, not institutional racism
RustyNails
Member
Murderers.HawksEye said:
I do question that video's authenticity. The camera cuts sharply away at the moment of execution. It wouldn't be terribly difficult to replicate. Also: that the guy was executed for stating that God is great instead of Gaddafi changes the theme from a simple act of brutality to act of brutality by a man opposed to their religion. It makes the rebels cause seem more just, and Gaddafi's unjust to the point of sacrilege.
If fake, that's a super-effective piece of propoganda.
If fake, that's a super-effective piece of propoganda.
RustyNails
Member
Good news: A super secret mission from Libya to Britain. Gaddafi's son Saif al Islam reportedly sent one of the regime's most trusted envoys to Britain for secret talks. Guardian speculates this could be a sign of regime looking for exit strategy.
Lets hope that is the case.
I just hope things don't fall to pieces if Gaddafi bows out. Someone has got to fill the resulting power vacuum, and suffice to say not everyone is going to agree on who that should be. What's going on there is, for all intents and purposes, a civil war. We also need to make sure that these rebels--whoever they turn out to be--don't commit atrocities of their own against Gaddafi supporters.
I have a really hard time picturing this going smoothly.
I have a really hard time picturing this going smoothly.
Amir0x said:
Yeah, I'm not really getting this either.
If the point was for covert ops to be doing something, shouldn't they be, like, covert.
Are we assuming Gadaffi has no one that can read English and give him a head's up by some means? That's probably not much of a good assumption.
They could be intentional leaks to the media. I mean, anytime the general public is caught off guard with news of CIA agents on the ground anywhere it looks bad. People would imagine all sorts of Western-scheming if they found out from other sources, but the media has clarified that the CIA is simply there to determine who the rebels are. Nothing really controversial there.Amir0x said:
nyong said:
Right but it's not covert. If you want a mission to be covert and, you know, not risk American lives by telling people a mission is happening covertly, you need to keep it a secret.
Americans are stupid. Some things should be kept a secret, at least for a little while. I'm all for transparency but not when it compromises critical American capabilities on the field.
SlipperySlope
Banned
It's really fucking weak that Gates is saying that the US shouldn't arm the rebels, but our allies should. I mean, what the fuck? Our role, whether we like it or not, is to be the beacon of the free world. How can we do that if we say eh, we won't do it, but you should. Pretty weak.
SlipperySlope
Banned
Amir0x said:Right but then it's not a covert mission at all and why are they calling it that?
Anyway I say fuck this Libya shit at this point and get to fucking using those millions to fucking WORK ON OUR INFRASTRUCTURE
our country is crumbling for fucks sake
There's a definite spending-happy attitude with our government at the moment. Well, at least in two of the branches. The money is grossly misspent. I mean, the government takes in what? 2.5? 3 trillion each year in revenues (I think these are the numbers, could be mistaken, haven't googled)? If you can't run a functioning government at that amount of revenue, with zero deficit, then you're doing it wrong. And this country has been doing it wrong for many many years.
Edit - I was close for a partial guess. $2.162 trillion in revenues last year. That's more than enough.
And also, how the FUCK can you have a 1.5 trillion deficit on 2.162 trillion revenues? Our spending is almost double our tax receipts! Almost double. Pathetic.
Amir0x said:Right but then it's not a covert mission at all and why are they calling it that?
I guess, the uhh, specifics are still secret, I guess? I don't know, it's lame.
Whereas I say fuck the Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya shit and get to fucking not using those billions on anything. So we can PAY OFF THAT RIDICULOUS DEBT. ;P
Seriously, cut our losses with Afghanistan and Iraq, spread the financial burden of Libya...what's the current tally? +1B? Say it with me: "We're not the world's police anymore, we're not the world's police anymore, we're not...."
I nearly jizzed myself when I first heard that Obama was going to create a New Deal-esque stimulus package: high speed rails, funding for the sciences....general infrastructure. What do we have to show for it now? Vague assurances that our economy was saved from certain destruction? Frankly, I'd much rather they put people on unemployment to work rather than let them sit at home. It's a complete waste of money and manpower.
I nearly jizzed myself when I first heard that Obama was going to create a New Deal-esque stimulus package: high speed rails, funding for the sciences....general infrastructure. What do we have to show for it now? Vague assurances that our economy was saved from certain destruction? Frankly, I'd much rather they put people on unemployment to work rather than let them sit at home. It's a complete waste of money and manpower.
SlipperySlope
Banned
JayDubya said:
Yeah. And our interest payments are nearly 10% of our revenue. I can't even imagine the destruction if investors see treasuries as bad investments. Our borrowing rates would double overnight, and that 10% would turn into 20% (400 billion, every single year). We'd have to default at that time.
Something Wicked
Member
Now, I saw some discussion on the previous page of concerns with Islamists. Well, those concerns are a bit more real than the US government has been letting the public know. Maybe not necessarily so much with the Libyan rebels themselves, but Al Qaeda has sizable active cells over the border in southern Algeria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_Organization_in_the_Islamic_Maghreb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_Organization_in_the_Islamic_Maghreb
The rebel commander has already admitted that many of the men fighting have ties to al-Qaeda. Which is why I am absolutely--under any circumstance, to include preventing a hypothetical massacre--against arming the rebels. Hell, we admitted we don't even know who they really are, and yet we're backing them?Something Wicked said:
SlipperySlope
Banned
Oh, and I personally do see T-Bills as bad investments. They're not safe at all, and give very little interest. I'd never invest in T-Bills.
Advance_Alarm
Member
JayDubya said:
nyong said:
It's possible that we may be looking at a fracturing of the Libyan nation; that's been posited by several people. The rebels clearly don't know what they're doing, so nation building will be an incredibly difficult task. And then there's the question of what kind of nation will they build, and the West's involvement in such. I hope for their sake whatever comes is willed and beneficial to the people, but I am still cynical as to how this will all play out if/when Gaddafi's gone.
RustyNails
Member
Well it was supposed to be secret, until Guardian journalists started snooping around. That's usually how stories break but yeah, if shit's supposed to be secret, only Gaddafi is supposed to know about it. For example, this Ali Treki dude was seen in Tunisia trying to find a way out but lo and behold, Al Jazeera uncovered the "secret" plan of Ali Treki and this is what happened:Amir0x said:
Today, Ali Treki defected.
SolKane said:
that's another thing. People are pointing to these defections and they seem to be implying that it means that Gaddafi is going to be gone soon but what if it's the opposite? What if Gaddafi is digging in, the people that defected KNOW that he has no intention of leaving and this lasts and lasts? I can really see this turning into a stalemate that lasts several months if Gaddafi wants to go that route, especially with the US being unwilling (fortunately) to commit ground troops to end the civil war faster.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I could see why he wouldn't want them to film him, heh.RustyNails said:
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
Apparently the U.S. is backing out of combat missions this weekend. Syria here we come?
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Seems a bit suspicious that the British are having secret talks with Libya's regime. We already know what happened with
Lockerbie bomber deal.
BP
Meus Renaissance
Member
US President and UK Prime Minister have called the Libyan regime brutal and rotten and articulate the plight of the Libyan people under his dictatorship
UK arms companies visited Tripoli three months ago. At least 50 British firms travelled to Libyan capital to meet senior figures from Gaddafi's military regime
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/201...air-attended-by-uk-firms?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
UK arms companies visited Tripoli three months ago. At least 50 British firms travelled to Libyan capital to meet senior figures from Gaddafi's military regime
A company that supplies riot control ammunition and a manufacturer of electrified razor wire were among a UK government arms delegation to Tripoli as recently as three months ago.
Amid concern that British equipment may have been used by the Gaddafi regime to suppress unrest in Libya, it has now come to light that representatives of at least 50 UK arms companies accompanied officials to meet military figures in November. They included Birmingham Barbed Tape, which produces razor wire that delivers a "repulse shock", and Lincolnshire-based Primetake, which offers teargas cartridges and rubber bullets.
Reports from Tripoli indicate that security forces have used teargas as well as live ammunition against protesters, though there is no evidence British products have been involved.
The delegation is understood to have been led by Britain's ambassador to Libya, Richard Northern. It attended an arms fair called Libdex at Tripoli's Mitiga military airport, where pro-Gaddafi mercenaries are reported to have landed to help quell the uprising.
The delegation was invited by figures from the Libyan Department of Defence, the Department of Public Security and the general committee of defence, which days ago declared its forces would cleanse Libya of anti-government elements. Essex Industries, a security firm present at the fair, says on its website that its stand was praised by the commander of the Libyan air force.
UK Department for Business, Innovation and Skills documents show that since 2008 licences to Libya have included four for the export of combat shotguns and six for small-arms ammunition, along with separate orders for anti-riot weapons and sniper rifles. Photographs show that British-made high-performance tactical sniper rifles, including the 7.62mm Rangemaster, which has an effective range of 1,000 metres, were on display in Libya during Libdex, though there is no proof that any of the firearms made by Kent-based RPA International were sold to the country.
David Cameron launched a defence of Britain's arms exports last week as he toured the Middle East with eight arms manufacturers. He said Britain had "nothing to be ashamed of" for selling weapons to Arab leaders.
In total, 75 arms export licences have been approved by the British government to Libya during the past three years. A spokesman for Birmingham Barbed Tape would not comment on the trip to Libya. RPA International and Primetake failed to respond to calls from the Observer.
Amid concern that British equipment may have been used by the Gaddafi regime to suppress unrest in Libya, it has now come to light that representatives of at least 50 UK arms companies accompanied officials to meet military figures in November. They included Birmingham Barbed Tape, which produces razor wire that delivers a "repulse shock", and Lincolnshire-based Primetake, which offers teargas cartridges and rubber bullets.
Reports from Tripoli indicate that security forces have used teargas as well as live ammunition against protesters, though there is no evidence British products have been involved.
The delegation is understood to have been led by Britain's ambassador to Libya, Richard Northern. It attended an arms fair called Libdex at Tripoli's Mitiga military airport, where pro-Gaddafi mercenaries are reported to have landed to help quell the uprising.
The delegation was invited by figures from the Libyan Department of Defence, the Department of Public Security and the general committee of defence, which days ago declared its forces would cleanse Libya of anti-government elements. Essex Industries, a security firm present at the fair, says on its website that its stand was praised by the commander of the Libyan air force.
UK Department for Business, Innovation and Skills documents show that since 2008 licences to Libya have included four for the export of combat shotguns and six for small-arms ammunition, along with separate orders for anti-riot weapons and sniper rifles. Photographs show that British-made high-performance tactical sniper rifles, including the 7.62mm Rangemaster, which has an effective range of 1,000 metres, were on display in Libya during Libdex, though there is no proof that any of the firearms made by Kent-based RPA International were sold to the country.
David Cameron launched a defence of Britain's arms exports last week as he toured the Middle East with eight arms manufacturers. He said Britain had "nothing to be ashamed of" for selling weapons to Arab leaders.
In total, 75 arms export licences have been approved by the British government to Libya during the past three years. A spokesman for Birmingham Barbed Tape would not comment on the trip to Libya. RPA International and Primetake failed to respond to calls from the Observer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/201...air-attended-by-uk-firms?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
A lot of reports from various sources, BBC and Al Jazeera among them, that the rebellion is finally fielding professional soldiers for the first time. Commanders and defected units are now on the front lines and they managed to retake Brega. It's supposedly given the other rebels, the amateur fighters, a huge morale boost.
RustyNails
Member
I'm not sure if they retook Brega. Yes they were turning down rebels with no fighting experience and only taking in those with discipline. They were also turning away news media so they would not reveal their locations to public.
HawksEye said:
Extended Video
I found an extended version of the video (2 videos pasted together) showing the man in the back of a pick-up truck after the shooting, the guy talking says: "This is one of the doctors", its sounds like they did not believe him. You can also see some of the prisoners both in the background on the floor and in another pick-up truck.
RustyNails
Member
This is the man:
What do you guys think? He currently holds a General's rank in the military. I think he can definitely offer some command structure, judging by his experience.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110401/ap_on_bi_ge/af_libya
Looks like the military who joined the rebels have finally taken control of the front lines and organized things.
Looks like the military who joined the rebels have finally taken control of the front lines and organized things.
RustyNails
Member
JayDubya said:
Don't tell me you also want NATO out.
Meus Renaissance
Member
No comments on the above story I posted?
RustyNails said:
While "NATO" includes us still being involved still, of course, we were supposed to pass command to NATO and reduce direct US involvement quite a while ago. This mess began Sat, March 19th, did it not?
The President said transfer would occur in "days, not weeks," did he not?
Apologies. "2," not "3." Typo. Important typo, granted. Just the same...
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
RustyNails
Member
Yep. NATO operation Unified Protector has begun.Ignis Fatuus said:
Also, Robert Fisk, one of my favorite journalists has a column on the state of media in Independent. It's typically Fisk in nature, very focused and sharp as a laser on a narrow topic.
Looks like the rebels are committing several atrocities of their own. I've been browsing around Liveleaks. One video of an black African mercenary being lynched...like hung upside down, sliced down his back, then his head sawed off. Surrounded by a crowd of several hundred cheering people with cellphones. Another video of rebels with a pile of Gaddafi Army bodies, several with gunshot wounds to the head.
I sincerely hope that the scale of these incidents stays small. A U.S. enabled massacre is the last thing we need.
I sincerely hope that the scale of these incidents stays small. A U.S. enabled massacre is the last thing we need.
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