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[lo escondido]

Who bestowed democratic legitimacy upon the Libyan Rebels?

They did

From their website

"The council derives it legitimacy from the decisions of local councils set up by the revolutionary people of Libya on the 17th of February. These local councils facilitated a mechanism to manage daily life in the liberated cities and villages. The council consists of thirty one members representing the various cities of Libya from the east to the west and from the north to the south.
The aim of the Transitional National Council is to steer Libya during the interim period that will come after its complete liberation. It will guide the country to free elections and the establishment of a constitution for Libya."

as well as this
http://ntclibya.org/english/libya/

 

[empty vessel]

They did

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2009/03/20093952410478734.html

 

[speculawyer]

Who bestowed democratic legitimacy upon the Libyan Rebels?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard-Henri_Lévy

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/0328/How-a-philosopher-swayed-France-s-response-on-Libya

 

[RustyNails]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2009/03/20093952410478734.html

To be perfectly honest, most of the rebels fighting Gaddafi are composed of pro-democracy demonstrators who started protesting against Gaddafi's rule, before he bombed them indiscriminately. Yes there are a couple of unknowns and could very well be Islamists, but the broad consensus is that they are not. I direct you to BBC Panorama's Fighting Gaddafi special. Also look up Iman Al Obeidy's claims on AC360.

 

[lo escondido]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2009/03/20093952410478734.html

Really? Also aren't you the one who said he'd rather live in North Korea than in the Palestinian territories? (I could be wrong about that)

To be perfectly honest, most of the rebels fighting Gaddafi are composed of pro-democracy demonstrators who started protesting against Gaddafi's rule, before he bombed them indiscriminately. Yes there are a couple of unknowns and could very well be Islamists, but the broad consensus is that they are not. I direct you to BBC Panorama's Fighting Gaddafi special. Also look up Iman Al Obeidy's claims on AC360.

This. They started protesting for democratic reforms like their neighboors got shot at and then decided to fight. They never wanted this war.

 

[empty vessel]

Really? Also aren't you the one who said he'd rather live in North Korea than in the Palestinian territories? (I could be wrong about that)

Are you a person who has said you'd rather live as an Arab in the occupied territories than in North Korea?

To be perfectly honest, most of the rebels fighting Gaddafi are composed of pro-democracy demonstrators who started protesting against Gaddafi's rule, before he bombed them indiscriminately. Yes there are a couple of unknowns and could very well be Islamists, but the broad consensus is that they are not. I direct you to BBC Panorama's Fighting Gaddafi special. Also look up Iman Al Obeidy's claims on AC360.

You should know I'm not the least bit worried about "Islamists."

 

[lo escondido]

Are you a person who has said you'd rather live as an Arab in the occupied territories than in North Korea?

I haven't said it but yes I'd rather live as a Palestinian than a North Korean. But I'm not starting down that road, it doesn't belong in this thread.

You should know I'm not the least bit worried about "Islamists."

Then what's your problem with the libyan rebels?

 

[empty vessel]

Then what's your problem with the libyan rebels?

I'm not any more or less concerned about them than I am with Gaddafi. I'm just not pretending to know that they are a force for democracy in Libya. The rebellion's heart is in the city that formerly ruled Libya before Gaddafi. It looks to me a lot like the new boss being same as the old. Again, I don't know, but the important point is that I don't pretend to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Idris

(Notice what city features prominently in the article.)

Although the [pro-Western] king died in exile and most Libyans were born after his reign, during the current 2011 Libyan uprising, many demonstrators opposing Colonel Gadaffi use the old tricolour flag of the monarchy and carry portraits of the king, especially in the traditional Sanussi stronghold of Cyrenaica.

 

[SlipperySlope]

I'm not any more or less concerned about them than I am with Gaddafi. I'm just not pretending to know that they are a force for democracy in Libya. The rebellion's heart is in the city that formerly ruled Libya before Gaddafi. It looks to me a lot like the new boss being same as the old. Again, I don't know, but the important point is that I don't pretend to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Idris

(Notice what city features prominently in the article.)

He had 6 kids, none of which survived childhood? Holy cow.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

I'm guessing they're waving the old flag since they don't want to make a new one yet, it's kind of the last thing on the list of things to do when making a new government. They just wave the old flag to make a statement against the current government that is in power. At protests against the 2009 Iranian election, I saw people waving the old lion flag (that was replaced after the revolution) but I highly doubt they waved the old flag to show their support for the shah who was corrupt and widely disliked.

 

[empty vessel]

I'm guessing they're waving the old flag since they don't want to make a new one yet, it's kind of the last thing on the list of things to do when making a new government. They just wave the old flag to make a statement against the current government that is in power. At protests against the 2009 Iranian election, I saw people waving the old lion flag (that was replaced after the revolution) but I highly doubt they waved the old flag to show their support for the shah who was corrupt and widely disliked.

And it's just a coincidence that they're supported by Britain?

 

[SlipperySlope]

And it's just a coincidence that they're supported by Britain?

Who's "they're"?

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

And it's just a coincidence that they're supported by Britain?

You mean that Britain is supporting the Libyan rebels? You could speculate about whatever reason Britain could have but the only reason I can see why Britain is throwing their support behind the rebels is that they want the revolution to finish and the oil market to stabilize. AFAIK, the rebel groups have been protesting because they want there to be a true democratic government, they don't want a dictator/general/king or whatever anymore.

 

[empty vessel]

You mean that Britain is supporting the Libyan rebels? You could speculate about whatever reason Britain could have but the only reason I can see why Britain is throwing their support behind the rebels is that they want the revolution to finish and the oil market to stabilize. AFAIK, the rebel groups have been protesting because they want there to be a true democratic government, they don't want a dictator/general/king or whatever anymore.

I think that might be a naive opinion, but it'll play out, and I guess we'll see.

 

[Kurtofan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard-Henri_Lévy

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/0328/How-a-philosopher-swayed-France-s-response-on-Libya

Like a boss.

 

[Roude Leiw]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1d5_1303580637&p=1

rebels vs Libyan tank. pretty good quality.

 

[RustyNails]

Here's more on the identity of the opposition movement, posted in Guardian just now

The Middle East. A man with a car fashioned into a bomb. He disguises his intent by joining a funeral cortege passing the chosen target. At the last minute the man swings the vehicle away, puts his foot down and detonates the propane canisters packed into the car.

It all sounds horrifyingly familiar. Mahdi Ziu was a suicide bomber in a region too often defined by people blowing up themselves and others. But, as with so much in Libya, the manner of Ziu's death defies the assumptions made about the uprisings in the Arab world by twitchy American politicians and generals who see Islamic extremism and al-Qaeda lurking in the shadows. Ziu's attack was an act of pure selflessness, not terror, and it may have saved Libya's revolution.

In the first days of the popular uprising he crashed his car into the gates of the Katiba, a much-feared military barracks in Benghazi, where Muammar Gaddafi's forces were making a last stand in a hostile city. At that time the revolutionaries had few weapons, mostly stones and "fish bombs" — TNT explosive with a fuse that is more usually dropped in the sea off Benghazi to catch fish. The soldiers had heavy machine guns and the revolutionaries, often daring young men letting loose their anger at the regime for the first time, were dying in their dozens as they tried to storm the Katiba.

Then Ziu arrived, blew the main gates off the barracks and sent the soldiers scurrying to seek shelter inside. Within hours the Katiba had fallen.

Ziu was not classic suicide-bomber material. He was a podgy, balding 48-year-old executive with the state oil company, married with daughters at home. There was no martyrdom video of the kind favoured by Hamas. He did not even tell his family his plan, although they had seen a change in him over the three days since the revolution began.

"He said everyone should fight for the revolution: 'We need Jihad,'" says Ziu's 20-year-old daughter, Zuhur, clearly torn between pride at her father's martyrdom and his loss. "He wasn't an extreme man. He didn't like politics. But he was ready to do something. We didn't know it would be that."

Ziu may have been unusual as a suicide bomber, but he was representative of a revolution driven by dentists and accountants, lorry drivers and academics, the better off and the very poor, the devout and secular. Men such as Abdullah Fasi, an engineering student who had just graduated and was in a hurry to get out of a country he regarded as devoid of all hope until he found himself outside the Katiba stoning Gaddafi's soldiers. And Shams Din Fadelala, a gardener in the city's public parks who supported the Libyan leader up to the day government soldiers started killing people on the streets of Benghazi. And Mohammed Darrat, who spent 18 years in Gaddafi's prisons and every moment out of them believing that one day the people would rise up.

 

[nubbe]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1d5_1303580637&p=1

rebels vs Libyan tank. pretty good quality.

Damn, the city is in ruins

 

[Ihya]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1d5_1303580637&p=1

rebels vs Libyan tank. pretty good quality.

Some seriously disturbing stuff on that site.

Spoiler

The Syrian protester with his jaw shot off, oh my God how can he still be alive

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1d5_1303580637&p=1

rebels vs Libyan tank. pretty good quality.

I can't tell if the hit was successful in disabling it, or if it just made the tank mad.

 

[Roude Leiw]

I can't tell if the hit was successful in disabling it, or if it just made the tank mad.

i cant tell either. maybe the guy hit the tanks tracks.

 

[XtremeRampage]

Just curious...but does someone here believe that CIA/MI6/Israel/**insert evil western stuff** here are behind (the instigators) the revolutions within the Arab world? (not specifically Libya, but throughout the Arabs)

And no, I myself don't, but I'm curious about people's thoughts here.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Obviously not. They might now support them in some areas, and not in others, and they might not try to fuel them in places where they'd like to see them, but this is all reactionary. They didn't start this.

 

[Magni]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1d5_1303580637&p=1

rebels vs Libyan tank. pretty good quality.

I must say I don't like how whatever these guys do, they always repeat the same "Allah akbar" over and over again after. It doesn't make them seem like rational people (and I've got nothing against Islam), just like sheep.

Fire guns in the air, Allah akbar! Burn down flag, Allah akbar! Shoot rocket at tank, Allah akbar!

 

[sphagnum]

I must say I don't like how whatever these guys do, they always repeat the same "Allah akbar" over and over again after. It doesn't make them seem like rational people (and I've got nothing against Islam), just like sheep.

Fire guns in the air, Allah akbar! Burn down flag, Allah akbar! Shoot rocket at tank, Allah akbar!

It's just a cultural battlecry...

 

[Magni]

It's just a cultural battlecry...

But why repeat it over and over all the god damn time? I honestly just want to know why. Why not "Long live Libya" or some other nationalist slogans, isn't that what is usually thrown around during revolutions?

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

But why repeat it over and over all the god damn time? I honestly just want to know why. Why not "Long live Libya" or some other nationalist slogans, isn't that what is usually thrown around during revolutions?

It's just the way they express emotion.

 

[nubbe]

It is kinda like saying "oh god!" while having sex

 

[nyong]

I don't see why Islamist is necessarily separate from democratic.

 

[Magni]

Thanks for the explanations guys. Now when I'll hear the rebels I'll think of cheap porn actresses from the 70s, oh well, better than terrorists haha!

I don't see why Islamist is necessarily separate from democratic.

Show how it wouldn't be separate then. How would you set up the ideal Islamic Republic?

 

[MrHicks]

is this shit over yet?
this is lasting waaaaaaaaaaaay longer then expected

 

[Wazzim]

But why repeat it over and over all the god damn time? I honestly just want to know why. Why not "Long live Libya" or some other nationalist slogans, isn't that what is usually thrown around during revolutions?

They were frightened and that's what most muslims say when they are scared.

 

[Ihya]

Of course. Why wouldn't I?

To directly compare the Taliban to the Libyan resistance... If only the world was so simple...

 

[theignoramus]

Thanks for the explanations guys. Now when I'll hear the rebels I'll think of cheap porn actresses from the 70s, oh well, better than terrorists haha!



Show how it wouldn't be separate then. How would you set up the ideal Islamic Republic?

he didnt say "islamic republic" he said islamist. Indonesia and Turkey are flawed countries, but they are democracies in which islamist politicians play a prominent role.

 

[Magni]

he didnt say "islamic republic" he said islamist. Indonesia and Turkey are flawed countries, but they are democracies in which islamist politicians play a prominent role.

Yeah, his sentence made no sense. I interpreted it as "political Islam" which is what Wikipedia redirects to from "Islamist".

 

[Your Excellency]

Have you guys seen these Guantanamo leaks from Wikileaks, it's pretty nuts. Obama really has dropped the ball on this shit.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Have you guys seen these Guantanamo leaks from Wikileaks, it's pretty nuts. Obama really has dropped the ball on this shit.

do we have a thread yet? well Obama tried to close Guantanamo but it didnt work out.


Libyan state TV: Gadhafi compound hit by airstrikes
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/04/25/libya.war/
Video (in german): http://www.bild.de/video/clip/muham...s-residenz-17572760,view=videoPopup.bild.html

 

[Your Excellency]

do we have a thread yet?

make one

 

[theignoramus]

Have you guys seen these Guantanamo leaks from Wikileaks, it's pretty nuts. Obama really has dropped the ball on this shit.

today is a huge newsday. 500 Taliban prisoners (and dozens of senior commanders) broke out of a kandahar prison and escaped through a 320 meter long tunnel, the syrian army rolled tanks and snipers into the city of daraa and the the Guantanomo files released.

 

[Your Excellency]

This eclipses everything:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-casio-wristwatch-alqaida


The watch worn by Lady Gaga, Rihanna and every hipster everywhere is officially a sign that you are a terrorist and should be put in Guantanamo.

 

[Ahoi-Brause]

Wait, you castigate him for (supposedly) using CoD as his source of knowledge when you just admitted to using Rambo 3 as yours? How are you not an armchair general just because you're arguing for the other alternative?

Because in Rambo 3 the taliban were the good guys.
Same in "the living daylights".
History repeats itself.
Sure Gadaffi is a major asshole, but that doesn't magically make the other taliban assholes who fight him now any better.
But whatever. I think interfering in civil wars spells disaster but on the other hand I don't care enough to defend my position here. Believe what you want.

edit:
Also more people should read Tintin and the picaros.

Shows in a light hearted way how the freedom fighter most of the time is just another dictator in disguise and will start being a major asshole as well as soon as he got his revolution

 

[Walshicus]

Because in Rambo 3 the taliban were the good guys.
Same in "the living daylights".
History repeats itself.
Sure Gadaffi is a major asshole, but that doesn't magically make the other taliban assholes who fight him now any better.

The core of the Libyan rebellion is middle class.

 

[empty vessel]

To directly compare the Taliban to the Libyan resistance... If only the world was so simple...

If only the world were so simple such that things in your head labeled "good" and things in your head labeled "bad" never had any comparable relation.

 

[XtremeRampage]

Obviously not. They might now support them in some areas, and not in others, and they might not try to fuel them in places where they'd like to see them, but this is all reactionary. They didn't start this.

Precisely. The revolutions themselves started rather unexpected, who expect a Tunisian fruitseller who tried to burn himself would start a revolution wave across the Middle East? The fact that many countries (not just the West) try to exploit and take advantages of the developing situation afterwards is a completely different story.

 

[Igor Antunov]

But why repeat it over and over all the god damn time? I honestly just want to know why. Why not "Long live Libya" or some other nationalist slogans, isn't that what is usually thrown around during revolutions?

They're scared. They repeat it to occupy their mind and deal with the fear.

 

[Roude Leiw]

They're scared. They repeat it to occupy their mind and deal with the fear.

if you watch videos of US troops in astan, they normally scream something like fuck yeah, after getting air support.
alah akbar in the video sounds like some sort of battle cry to me.

 

[Phantast2k]

if you watch videos of US troops in astan, they normally scream something like fuck yeah, after getting air support.
alah akbar sounds like some sort of battle cry to me.

But do they go...fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah?

I don't think so.

It's almost like they speak alah akbar.

Alah akbar? You got any cigaretes?
Alah akbar, Alah akbar. Yeah I got some, here you go.
Alah akbar. Thanks.
Alah akbar. You're welcome.

 

[HawksEye]

But do they go...fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah?

I don't think so.

That is the difference between trained soldiers and a group of amateurs getting excited by the smallest achievement like firing a weapon

 

[Roude Leiw]

But do they go...fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah, fuck yeah?

I don't think so.

well the rebels are no trained soldiers. i can imagine them being pretty scared and high on adrenalin.

 

[Phantast2k]

That is the difference between a trained soldiers and a group of amateurs getting excited by the smallest achievement things like firing a weapon

Alah akbar.

well the rebels are no trained soldiers. i can imagine them being pretty scared and high on adrenalin.

Alah akbar.