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UN and NATO to Gaddafi: Operation Odyssey Dawn |OT|

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M

MrHicks

Banned
i said it before but.....WHY is this still going on???
how the fuck is this guy not toppled yet?

WTF is nato doing that takes so long?
totally don't get it
 
S

SouthernDragon

Member
NATO is restricted by international law. Libya is not a direct and immediate threat to the peace/stability/integrity of a member state, so the full use of arms isn't appropriate.

It'd actually help if Ghaddafi were to launch a missile or gas canister somewhere near a member state, then NATO could just plow in.
 
T

theignoramus

Member
ICC warrants to be issued for three names in the Libyan government. Speculation here, but I can see NATO acting on these arrest warrants in tandem with resolution 1973.
 
A

AlimNassor

Banned
To be fair NATO has done a lot it's just the soldiers are already adapting to NATO and disguising themselves as rebels and using mortars and snipers against untrained civilians with guns.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
WASHINGTON — President Obama and his legal advisers are deliberating about how the United States military may lawfully continue participating in NATO’s bombing campaign in Libya after next week, when the air war will reach a legal deadline for terminating combat operations that have not been authorized by Congress.

Under the War Powers Resolution of 1973, a president must terminate such operations 60 days after he has formally notified lawmakers about the introduction of armed forces into actual or imminent hostilities. The Libya campaign will reach that mark on May 20.

Though Congressional leaders have shown little interest in enforcing the resolution, James Steinberg, the deputy secretary of state, was asked Thursday about the deadline at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing.

He said the administration was examining the military’s “role and activities as we move through the next period of time” and would consult Congress about evaluating “what we think we can and can’t do.”

“Mindful of the passage of time including the end of the two-month period, we are in the process of reviewing our role, and the president will be making decisions going forward in terms of what he sees as appropriate for us to do,” Mr. Steinberg said.

The administration apparently has no intention of pulling out of the Libya campaign, and Mr. Steinberg said that Mr. Obama was committed “to act consistently with the War Powers Resolution.” So the Obama legal team is now trying to come up with a plausible theory for why continued participation by the United States does not violate the law.

A variety of Pentagon and military officials said the issue was in the hands of lawyers, not commanders. Several officials described a few of the ideas under consideration.

One concept being discussed is for the United States to halt the use of its Predator drones in attacking targets in Libya, and restrict them solely to a role gathering surveillance over targets.

Over recent weeks, the Predators have been the only American weapon actually firing on ground targets, although many aircraft are assisting in refueling, intelligence gathering and electronic jamming.

By ending all strike missions for American forces, the argument then could be made that the United States was no longer directly engaged in hostilities in Libya, but only providing support to NATO allies.

Another idea is for the United States to order a complete — but temporary — halt to all of its efforts in the Libya mission. Some lawyers make the case that, after a complete pause, the United States could rejoin the mission with a new 60-day clock.

Congress passed the War Powers Resolution at the end of the Vietnam War, overriding President Richard M. Nixon’s veto. It was intended to re-assert Congress’s constitutional role in making decisions about getting involved in significant military conflicts.

That role had been eroding for several decades, as presidents of both parties, taking advantage of the large standing army left in place after World War II, increasingly initiated or escalated combat operations on their own.

While many presidents of both parties have deployed forces into hostilities without prior Congressional permission, there is far less precedent for defying the section of the War Powers Resolution that imposes the 60-day deadline on hostilities. For the most part, the issue has not arisen because fighting was over by then, or Congress voted to continue an operation.

One event that set off a legal controversy came in 1999, when President Bill Clinton continued the bombing campaign in Kosovo more than two weeks after the deadline. But the Clinton legal team argued that Congress had implicitly authorized the operation to continue by appropriating specific funds for it.

That option is not available to Mr. Obama. This year, the Senate passed a resolution calling on the United Nations Security Council to impose a no-fly zone on Libya. But Congress has neither approved nor specifically financed United States participation in enforcing the zone, and the House of Representatives is in recess next week.
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Story Here

Sounds like they're desperately seeking a way to justify doing something congress under the WPA intended them NOT to be able to do.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Big development: ICC arrest warrant sought for Col. Gaddafi, wanted for crimes against humanity.
Moreno-Ocampo said his office "gathered direct evidence about orders issued by Moammar Gadhafi himself, direct evidence of Saif al-Islam (Gadhafi) organizing the recruitment of mercenaries and direct evidence of the participation of (Abdullah) al-Sanussi in the attacks against demonstrators." Al-Sanussi, the brother-in-law, is Gadhafi's head of intelligence and chief enforcer.

"The evidence shows that civilians were attacked in their homes; demonstrations were repressed using live ammunition; heavy artillery was used against participants in funeral processions, and snipers placed to kill those leaving the mosques after the prayers," Moreno-Ocampo said.

"The evidence shows that persecution is still ongoing in the areas under Gadhafi control," he said.

Authorities believe Gadhafi "personally ordered" attacks on unarmed civilians, he said, and al-Sanussi is "his right-hand man, the executioner."

Gadhafi has "absolute authority" in Libya, Moreno-Ocampo told reporters. "... It's a crime to challenge Gadhafi's authority and he used his authority to commit the crimes."

Gadhafi and his inner circle plotted to suppress any challenge to his authority, the statement said.

It was the first time the International Criminal Court has taken action while a conflict was ongoing. It is the culmination of an investigation that began February 15, when demonstrations against Gadhafi's regime accelerated. Since then, war has erupted in Libya as the strongman has tried to stay firm on his grip on power.

"Gadhafi ruled Libya through fear," Moreno-Ocampo said Monday, "and I think Libyans are losing that fear."

Libyan Deputy Foreign Minister Khalid Kaim on Sunday dismissed a possible ICC action, saying that because Libya is not a signatory of the Rome Statute that established the ICC, the government will "just ignore it."

The investigation took investigators to 11 countries and included the review of 1,200 documents and interviews with about 50 witnesses.

Moreno-Ocampo has to present all his evidence to a panel of judges before the court in The Hague can decide whether to issue arrest warrants. The panel can reject his request, accept it or ask for more evidence, he said.

It could take weeks or months for the judges to decide what to do.

A report issued earlier this month by Moreno-Ocampo said the alleged crimes against humanity include the alleged commission of rape by supporters of Gadhafi's government, as well as the deportation or forcible transfer of citizens during the civil war in the country.

"It is indeed a characteristic of the situation in Libya that massive crimes are reportedly committed upon instruction of a few persons who control the organizations that execute the orders," the report said. "Arresting those who ordered the commission of crimes, should the judges decide to issue warrants, will contribute to the protection of citizens in Libya."
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L

lo escondido

Apartheid is, in fact, not institutional racism
Purkake4 said:
So we've moved on to a no-float zone?
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did you read the resolution?

It did more than a establish a no fly zone, it enabled member nations of the UN to use "all necessary measures to protect civilians" with the only exception being an "occupying force"
 
S

Sibylus

Banned
Meus Renaissance said:
In what way is it a gamble?
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It's essentially a ground war of a different sort. Going to be a lot closer quarters than the opening bombardments by jets and cruise missiles.
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
If a chopper goes down, there's possibility of UK prisoners.
 
X

xbhaskarx

Member
I'm just glad to see European powers continue to take the lead in a military conflict for once.
Escalation may sound bad, but I think having this drag on forever with the civilian population throughout the country suffering is far worse.
 
T

The_Squirrel_Menace

Member
Hm yup, French sending over another ship, the Tonnerre, filled with helicopters like the Tigers and Gazelles, probably the first time Tigers will see active service? or were they used earlier like in Afghanistan?

Knowing that the Aussie also have it.
 
W

Wazzim

Banned
xbhaskarx said:
I'm just glad to see European powers continue to take the lead in a military conflict for once.
Escalation may sound bad, but I think having this drag on forever with the civilian population throughout the country suffering is far worse.
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Keep in mind though that the US has a big stake in NAVO too, it might just be EU equipment under US charge. I think this is to keep control over what happens over there without damaging the US's reputation which works really well for the US.
 
R

Roude Leiw

Member
The_Squirrel_Menace said:
Hm yup, French sending over another ship, the Tonnerre, filled with helicopters like the Tigers and Gazelles, probably the first time Tigers will see active service? or were they used earlier like in Afghanistan?

Knowing that the Aussie also have it.
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i think 3 french tigers are in a-stan since 2008/2009.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Ether_Snake said:
If a chopper goes down, there's possibility of UK prisoners.
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Only if it goes down in Tripoli. Remember, couple of USAF pilots ejected into rebel territory and were promptly returned to US with full respects.
 
I

Ignis Fatuus

Banned
RustyNails said:
Only if it goes down in Tripoli. Remember, couple of USAF pilots ejected into rebel territory and were promptly returned to US with full respects.
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They're probably only going to be deploying helicopters to contested areas, so the chance of capture is much higher.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Quite surprised to see Russia get involved at all:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/28/world/europe/28russia.html

President Dmitri A. Medvedev on Friday offered to leverage Russia’s relationships in Libya to try to persuade Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi to leave power, an act of high-wire diplomacy that for the first time casts Russia as a central player in events unfolding in North Africa.

Mr. Medvedev’s announcement, which came a day after a 90-minute bilateral meeting with President Obama in France represents a pronounced shift in Russia’s tone on Libya. Russia’s criticism of NATO attacks had become increasingly tough over the last months, reviving a longstanding critique of American unilateralism that had quieted since Mr. Obama took office.
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O

ollin

Member
Russia wants the glory if Qaddafi surrenders. And US/Euro wants to get on Russia's good side in terms of Iran/Syria.
 
T

theignoramus

Member
Russia knows the prolonged stalemate is unsustainable and dangerous so its making its move now. Expect Russia Today's editorial slant (which was borderline sympathetic to Gadaffi) to reflect the new Kremlin position.
 
X

xbhaskarx

Member
I thought this was a good analysis of the situation in Libya, even if the timeline seems optimistic: http://www.internationalrelations.com/2011/06/01/top-of-the-stack-libya/


If you’re suffering Uprising Fatigue from keeping track of all the revolutions, repressions, and armed uprisings happening around the Middle East and beyond, here’s a suggestion: The three that really matter right now are Libya, Yemen, and Syria. Today I’m focused on Libya.

The fighting in Libya has fallen off the front page lately, and from a distance it looks like a stalemate or even (gasp) a Quagmire. But this is not the case. The war in Libya is steadily and rather quickly moving toward the endgame, which will be the death or departure of Gaddafi and the establishment of a new government based on the National Transitional Council currently based in Benghazi.

To start with the new developments, defections from Gaddafi’s government are accelerating. Today the oil minister — and that’s an important job in a country whose economy is based on oil — ended two weeks of speculation since he left the country and showed up in Rome to declare his opposition to Gaddafi. The defections started with the Justice Minister in late February — he declared that Gaddafi had personally ordered the downing of Pan Am flight 103 in 1988, and took a leading role in the opposition National Transitional Council. Gaddafi’s foreign minister and close confidante soon followed, and others have trickled out since then. The ambassador to the UN, and other diplomats, have abandoned the Gaddafi ship. And day before yesterday the latest round of eight military officers, including five generals, also defected. They did not appreciate Gaddafi’s decisions that have led to what they called an 80 percent degradation of the country’s military.

The air campaign, suspended for three days while South Africa’s president made a failed attempt at diplomacy with Gaddafi, resumed yesterday. Airstrike by airstrike, NATO chips away at Gaddafi’s remaining strength. Indeed, at least once they narrowly missed killing him. Special forces from European countries (perhaps retired personnel) have been sighted on the ground recently working with rebels, presumably as spotters to call in airstrikes. And Britain and France are poised to introduce their attack helicopters into the fight imminently, according to the French defense minister yesterday.

If anyone thought NATO was getting tired and Gaddafi could wait things out, today NATO decided unanimously to extend the Libya mission for 90 more days after the first authorization runs out June 27. American and other western leaders face no serious domestic opposition to the Libya campaign, despite whining from the right that it’s going too slow and grousing from the left that Obama has overstayed his welcome under the War Powers Act.

And very importantly, at the G8 summit a week ago Russia joined in the chorus demanding that Gaddafi step down. Gaddafi really doesn’t have friends, which is why the UN was able to authorize action against him in the first place (unlike some other countries in the region).

On the ground, the rebels are making slow but steady advances. The center of gravity of the Libya war has, since its early days, been the besieged rebel-held town of Misurata, the only significant rebel base in the western part of the country (that is, the part with the capital, Tripoli, and Gaddafi). Well, the rebels won that fight against great odds and after great suffering. They have pushed the front lines towards Tripoli. In the east, the rebels are well settled in Benghazi and the front lines are rather static, mostly because the rebel army is taking the time to get organized after realizing in earlier battles that enthusiasm alone does not replace weaponry and tactics. Elsewhere, as in the mountains near the Tunisian border, rebels have also claimed territory over the past month.

So where is all this leading? A stalemate? Quagmire? Gaddafi victory? No way! Ain’t gonna happen. The outcome is no longer in doubt, although some doubt remains about whether Gaddafi will choose exile — dodging the International Criminal Court for the rest of his life — or martyrdom. Predicting the timing is always harder. But let me stick my neck out and say this could be over before June 27 and NATO won’t need that 90-day extension. Could be longer, but not a whole lot longer. The collapse is accelerating.
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S

speculawyer

Member
xbhaskarx said:
I thought this was a good analysis of the situation in Libya, even if the timeline seems optimistic: http://www.internationalrelations.com/2011/06/01/top-of-the-stack-libya/
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I hope he is right. And I think he is right. Ghadaffi should just pick some African state that will give him exile and pack up a few hundred million to live on.

But being a dictator for so long warps these people's egos and none of them seem to be able to do that. I suspect some insider will turn on him and that will be the end. Perhaps a coup. Perhaps they'll rat out his location to NATO.
 
M

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
A slow erosion in his capacity to execute the war was always the most likely outcome. Eventually his resources will have to run out. The transitional council seems in working order, but it remains to be seen whether they will be able to bear the strain of what comes next in a possible post-Quaddafi environment.
 
T

theignoramus

Member
The Libyan opposition are 100 kilometers from Tripoli. As for Syria, the bloodshed is astounding. If the protesters bring down the regime (and bringing down Assad would mean the fall of the regime due to all that his removal entails) there might be a post-regime bloodbath. The security forces have done so much killing and torturing, the perpetrators are liable to face angry, violent mob justice if they are ever held to account for their killing and torturing.
 
X

XtremeRampage

Neo Member
theignoramus said:
Russia knows the prolonged stalemate is unsustainable and dangerous so its making its move now. Expect Russia Today's editorial slant (which was borderline sympathetic to Gadaffi) to reflect the new Kremlin position.
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LOL! Saying it was borderline sympathetic is an understatement. To them, the opposition fighters are nothing but CIA/MI6 agents/stooges. Virtually every Russian internet warriors I've encountered support the Libyan regime and would dismiss the opposition as armed gangs. Interesting though, considering they support the people's revolution in Tunisia, Egypt, and Yemen, but when it come to one of their regime friends (like Libya and Syria), their views dramatically changed. At least the average Americans (from what I've seen) recognize Ben Ali and Mubarak as one of their "friendly" dictators (even Fox News mentioned it).
 
R

RustyNails

Member
theignoramus said:
The Libyan opposition are 100 kilometers from Tripoli. As for Syria, the bloodshed is astounding. If the protesters bring down the regime (and bringing down Assad would mean the fall of the regime due to all that his removal entails) there might be a post-regime bloodbath. The security forces have done so much killing and torturing, the perpetrators are liable to face angry, violent mob justice if they are ever held to account for their killing and torturing.
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Which is why Syrian protesters know that there's really no going back. I can't even imagine what they're feeling. Die protesting in the streets or get dragged away by Baathist security forces and get your eyes poked out by a crowbar.
 
T

theignoramus

Member
247bed226ac0d5df20ed7b25b7f5ca82e1a52189.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3GN1fxA-B0
Footage from Gadaffi fighter's cell phone.
 
D

Dyno

Member
That ICC charge against Gaddafi, along with the delployment of attack helicopters, indicates that a special forces team might try to swoop in and snatch the Libyan leader. Seeing how successful the Osama raid was I bet there are a lot of brass who think similar tactics could solve this problem.
 
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