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[SomedayTheFire]

For what it's worth the random battles get more complex as you go, and boss battles shake up the formula and play a bit differently than random encounters. I also found regular bullet-dodging movement to be better with a controller (wired 360), if you haven't tried that.

But if you just straight up hate the battles, well, it might not be the game for you. I really enjoyed the battles in Undertale, but I also think there's a lot to love beyond the fighting and it's not a super long game so maybe you'll find something that drives you to power through? Otherwise good on you for giving the game a fair shake and supporting the developer!

I love the concept of the battle, I like the vibe of the game and the humour. It's very cute and charming and the soundtrack is nice. That's enough for me to at least play the full game, who knows maybe I'll come around to the enemy turns!

 

[bizzarewars]

Just beat the game with a full pacifism run. Not gonna go into spoilers but this is probably going to be my game of the year. This game was such an amazing surprise.

 

[lukeskymac]

End Game (True Ending) Spoilers:

Spoiler

I would give an arm and a limb to have a way to deal with Asriel's plight. I know it has already been said how people want to save him, but I would be satisfied even with a way to have him properly die instead of reverting back to Flowey and eventually becoming a sociopath monster because he's literally soulless.

I love the concept of the battle, I like the vibe of the game and the humour. It's very cute and charming and the soundtrack is nice. That's enough for me to at least play the full game, who knows maybe I'll come around to the enemy turns!

One thing to note: what exactly did you feel that's off about it? It does get more varied as the game progresses, especially the bosses.

 

[NotLiquid]

End Game (True Ending) Spoilers:

Spoiler

I would give an arm and a limb to have a way to deal with Asriel's plight. I know it has already been said how people want to save him, but I would be satisfied even with a way to have him properly die instead of reverting back to Flowey and eventually becoming a sociopath monster because he's literally soulless.

Spoiler

Funny thing. Best ending you can give him is to just not play anymore after that point, as silly as that sounds. Genocide run makes it more clear than anything how the game's premise is almost entirely built on the player psychology. As much of a sociopath as Flowey is, he raises some of the most uncomfortable truths about you.

 

[Capra]

I got the impression

Spoiler

the only real way to save Asriel was to take the True Pacifist ending and STOP PLAYING. Since you, the player, are the "anomaly" that causes the timeline to reset continuously through replays if you just stop and let the characters have their happy ending Asriel won't revert to Flowey.

Edit: Yeah what he said

 

[OniBarubary]

Dating

Spoiler

Papyrus

may be the best thing that's ever happened in a video game ever.

 

[lukeskymac]

Spoiler

Funny thing. Best ending you can give him is to just not play anymore after that point, as silly as that sounds. Genocide run makes it more clear than anything how the game's premise is almost entirely built on the player psychology. As much of a sociopath as Flowey is, he raises some of the most uncomfortable truths about you.

I got the impression

Spoiler

the only real way to save Asriel was to take the True Pacifist ending and STOP PLAYING. Since you, the player, are the "anomaly" that causes the timeline to reset continuously through replays if you just stop and let the characters have their happy ending Asriel won't revert to Flowey.

Edit: Yeah what he said

Spoiler

Yes, of course, but even if you sit through the credits, quit the game after the "good night" screen, and never come back, what I said is still going to happen. You just don't see it.

Without his body, his soul would eventually scatter once again, and without it he would eventually lose all empathy and become a monster again. The Flowey that begs us not to reset has merely not gone through all of this yet.

Also, if you talk to Asriel back at the starting point multiple times, I think he pretty clearly states that his form was only temporary.

 

[dity]

Spoiler

Funny thing. Best ending you can give him is to just not play anymore after that point, as silly as that sounds. Genocide run makes it more clear than anything how the game's premise is almost entirely built on the player psychology. As much of a sociopath as Flowey is, he raises some of the most uncomfortable truths about you.

Spoiler

Like how anyone who looks up info on or watches the Genocide run but doesn't play it is more of a perverted sicko than the player playing said run?

 

[lukeskymac]

Spoiler

Like how anyone who looks up info on or watches the Genocide run but doesn't play it is more of a perverted sicko than the player playing said run?

Spoiler

I think Flowey meant "more loathsome" than perverted.

 

[Capra]

Spoiler

I consider that more like looking into alternate timelines to see how things could have played out and to reinforce my own choice not to replay. If someone else has already done it, fulfilling my curiosity to know what lies down that path doesn't make me responsible.

Also Flowey is a dick.

 

[dity]

Spoiler

I think Flowey meant "more loathsome" than perverted.

Spoiler

It's still a kind of perversion, albeit not sexual

Spoiler

I consider that more like looking into alternate timelines to see how things could have played out and to reinforce my own choice not to replay. If someone else has already done it, fulfilling my curiosity to know what lies down that path doesn't make me responsible.

Also Flowey is a dick.

Spoiler

He's specifically calling out that behaviour. Apparently Toby put it in for people who opt to watch let's plays on Twitch/Youtube for "curiosity" but really you still have the interest to see every body die

 

[NotLiquid]

Spoiler

It's still a kind of perversion, albeit not sexual

Spoiler

He's specifically calling out that behaviour. Apparently Toby put it in for people who opt to watch let's plays on Twitch/Youtube for "curiosity" but really you still have the interest to see every body die

Spoiler

At the same time, the Genocide path is designed in a way to discourage you from going down that road. It's a catch-22, the inevitability of hypocrisy. No choice is the right one, but in the true pacifist ending its highly suggested that you'd be best leaving the world behind in a conscious state of mind as you've fulfilled the happiest end for everyone. In the genocide run its best to leave it behind as you're treating the game's elements with wreckless abandon. Staying leaves you at the mercy of the game's resentment.

The point overall that I take from it is to create your own perspective out of it, as everyone interprets the events throughout the game differently. But try to stay determined in commitment, one way or another.

 

[Kater]

I never really played any bullet hell games so getting forwards in my first playthrough was a tough ride for me so far. Now I'm almost finished, the seemingly last fight that's left is the one with

Spoiler

Asgore

.

 

[dity]

Spoiler

At the same time, the Genocide path is designed in a way to discourage you from going down that road. It's a catch-22, the inevitability of hypocrisy. No choice is the right one, but in the true pacifist ending its highly suggested that you'd be best leaving the world behind in a conscious state of mind as you've fulfilled the happiest end for everyone. In the genocide run its best to leave it behind as you're treating the game's elements with wreckless abandon. Staying leaves you at the mercy of the game's resentment.

Spoiler

Sans says it all doesn't matter, as it's inevitable his world will be reset again. You're eventually going to uninstall the game, right?

Genocide route is the only ending wherein which you find out Flowey Asriel's true feelings and intentions anyway. You completely lose that context with only the true pacifist ending.

Lastly, if you ever choose to re-open that true pacifist save file boom everyone's before leaving for the human world.

You can't escape the timeline shifts. Reseting to the underground is inevitable

 

[NotLiquid]

Spoiler

Like I said, no answer is the right one. To paraphrase WarGames here; "A strange game, the only winning move is not to play." I'm satisfied with my true pacifist run and have no desire to return anytime soon.

But in a way I have to admit its funny that Toby made the Kojima jokes a few times about besting his game considering the latter said he wanted to really instill the feeling of a "phantom pain" with the player with MGSV, when Toby, unintentionally or not, has pretty much done the same thing but better in every way lmao

The game is post-modern as fuck

 

[Capra]

Man, it just hit me how awesome it is that we can have in-depth conversations debating

Spoiler

the ethics of replaying a game to see more of its content

.

 

[dity]

Spoiler

Flowey Asriel was initially satisfied with a true pacifist ending too

 

[The Bankslammer]

beyond how interesting the messages the game conveys are, something i think is extremely impressive is that it's not heavy-handed at all. you could conceivably play the game once, think it's a unique and charming rpg, and be done with it, none the wiser to the fact that this conversation is even relevant to the game

i think a lot of that is testament to how solid nearly every aspect of the game is. good writing, good gameplay, good music, good pretty much everything. it doesn't feel like a shallow game simply designed to deliver a message like some other indie games do.

then again, i think one could also argue that the entire concept would fall apart without a strong base.

 

[OniBarubary]

Oh my god, I love how if I think of something and try it it normally leads to something actually happening.

After the fight with

Spoiler

Undyne

I went ALLLLLL the way back to a place that looked...fishy...before and lo and behold I went in and

Spoiler

totally ruined Undyne and Papyrus' extra-private one on one training.

I have also gone down the deep deep well of Undyne fan art. I adore that such a...low-fi indie title has generated such amazing fan art.

Edit: OMG I'm dying, Undyne is the straight best.

There is so much more amazing stuff

 

[PSqueak]

Man, it just hit me how awesome it is that we can have in-depth conversations debating

Spoiler

the ethics of replaying a game to see more of its content

.

I keep saying it, this aspect of the game is the best thing no one wants to discuse...well, except right now this thread heh.

Edit: OMG I'm dying, Undyne is the straight best.

Spoiler

Not exactly the best wording to describe her.

 

[dity]

I love how despite the themes of death,

Spoiler

Toby still makes fun of how a little kiss can still be seen as inappropriate in games like this

Also, so tempted to splurge and get the Undertale foil badge on Steam as a bleak contrast to my currently selected background.

 

[Lingitiz]

I'm getting absolutely bodied by the fights in this game on the passive route. Undyne wrecked me and now I'm having trouble getting past Muffet.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

I'm getting absolutely bodied by the fights in this game on the passive route. Undyne wrecked me and now I'm having trouble getting past Muffet.

Take lots of health items and you should be fine, Muffet is indeed hard with your limited health.

 

[JC Sera]

Take lots of health items and you should be fine, Muffet is indeed hard with your limited health.

Did you save any

Spoiler

spider donuts or cider?

 

[CHC]

Just noticed how amazing the Steam page is:

But really this game has probably the highest user reviews I've ever seen.... 98% of 3000 users.

 

[Lingitiz]

Did you save any

Spoiler

spider donuts or cider?

Sadly no

Ended up rage quitting for both of those fights. They eventually escalate to a point where it's more frustrating than fun. Going to give Muffet another shot after I've cleared my head.

 

[dity]

You can stay at Snowed Inn to get 30/20 HP.

Also, with Muffet I think you only need to survive 17 or so turns. Just remember to give her money before the cupcake attacks.

 

[DNAbro]

I'm still amazed it's the number 1 rated game on PC metacritic. Someone should make a thread about that.

 

[Lingitiz]

You can stay at Snowed Inn to get 30/20 HP.

Also, with Muffet I think you only need to survive 17 or so turns. Just remember to give her money before the cupcake attacks.

Thanks for this, didn't even think about doing that. Should help a ton.

I'm still amazed it's the number 1 rated game on PC metacritic. Someone should make a thread about that.

It will undoubtedly drop back down to Earth as more reviews come out, but still it's really nice to see.

 

[DNAbro]

Thanks for this, didn't even think about doing that. Should help a ton.



It will undoubtedly drop back down to Earth as more reviews come out, but still it's really nice to see.

It more depends on how many sites are actually going to review it. It is a small indie game after all. Game deserves all the love it's been getting.

 

[1upsuper]

Man, it just hit me how awesome it is that we can have in-depth conversations debating

Spoiler

the ethics of replaying a game to see more of its content

.

I love this aspect so much.

Spoiler

Games put you in the driver seat and you may advance the narrative, but games always absolve you of consequences. Even if you make bad choices, the bad choices are the fault of your character, because games are usually too afraid to accuse the player. Rather than stroke the ego of the player and offer him all these different breadcrumbs to follow, Undertale forces you to live with your own choices. Oddly enough, it's super nice to actually be accountable, cuz in a way it connects you more deeply to the game. And I've read about Sans' comment to the effect that you do everything just because you can, which totally resonates with me. I'm usually a completionist -- certainly with games I really love. But with Undertale I stopped after my true pacifist run, because I care more about the well-being of these fictional characters than I do about satisfying my own habitual curiosities which is pretty great.

 

[Geg]

Welp I just went through the whole game in one night trying for the genocide route only to realize near the end I needed to kill every enemy type from each area rather than just every enemy I came across. I'm pretty sure I missed one in Snowy and maybe even back in the Ruins. Guess I'll try again tomorrow.

I did get the worst possible neutral ending though.

 

[Puruzi]

Welp I just went through the whole game in one night trying for the genocide route only to realize near the end I needed to kill every enemy type from each area rather than just every enemy I came across. I'm pretty sure I missed one in Snowy and maybe even back in the Ruins. Guess I'll try again tomorrow.

I did get the worst possible neutral ending though.

it's not every type of enemy, it is literally every single random encounter in an area

 

[Matt Attack]

Man, it just hit me how awesome it is that we can have in-depth conversations debating

Spoiler

the ethics of replaying a game to see more of its content

.

Tell me about it.

Spoiler

I loved my true pacifist run so much that I want nothing more than to do it all over again, but I can't seem to bring myself to hit that true reset button.

 

[OniBarubary]

"It's definitely bigger than a twin bed."

Spoiler

THAT FUCKING FORESHADOWING

 

[Conan-san]

[It's too early in the morning]

 

[Conan-san]

In light of the Super Best Friends starting an LP of this game I decided to say fuck it and buy my first PC game in years. Hopefully my anti-gaming PC can handle it because I really want to know what the hype is all about. Thank god for steam refunds though just in case.

Pray for me.

I get the feeling most PCs this side of 2010 will play it just fine.

PC gaming gets a lot of bum rap about being the exclusive domain of those with more money than sense.

Spoiler

Like I said, no answer is the right one. To paraphrase WarGames here; "A strange game, the only winning move is not to play." I'm satisfied with my true pacifist run and have no desire to return anytime soon.

But in a way I have to admit its funny that Toby made the Kojima jokes a few times about besting his game considering the latter said he wanted to really instill the feeling of a "phantom pain" with the player with MGSV, when Toby, unintentionally or not, has pretty much done the same thing but better in every way lmao

The game is post-modern as fuck

To be fair to Kojima on that one, Toby didn't have Konami on his arse that whole time.

 

[dity]

TBH I wonder if people stop at the true pacificist run because they care, or because that was how they were told how to play the game.

Plus I still don't really consider anyone who stops at true pacifist and then Googles the genocide run (or just aspects of it) to be much better. You just want to watch someone else do the dirty deed.

 

[Moonlight]

TBH I wonder if people stop at the true pacificist run because they care, or because that was how they were told how to play the game.

I made the decision to stop for myself far before I noticed any 'rules' on how you're supposed to play the game. IMO, if the game's message resonated with you, you'd do the same.

 

[dity]

I made the decision to stop for myself far before I noticed any 'rules' on how you're supposed to play the game. IMO, if the game's message resonated with you, you'd do the same.

And I'm also concerned about this superiority complex starting to sprout.

 

[Conan-san]

Honestly having seen even the Nutural version of how those bosses go, I really don't think I have it in me to go No Mercy.

Spoiler

But I'm tots going to type in "I am Big Boss" at Mettaton's fight

 

[Moonlight]

And I'm also concerned about this superiority complex starting to sprout.

I don't know anything about a 'superiority complex', but I definitely don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting that Undertale pretty clearly intends you to play and end it in a specific way. Using this to suggest you're better than people is silly, obviously.

Implicitly suggesting most people who stop at True Pacifist do it just because that's what 'they were told how to play' strikes me as very presumptuous, just on another end of the spectrum. The game

Spoiler

doesn't send you back to the main menu when you 'beat it' and explicitly asks you not to restart should you ever reopen the game. Undertale's messaging is very clear. And the former reason doesn't work unless you've already bought into Undertale's major message - that you care enough about the characters to consider them less a package of 'do this or that' variables and actual friends you've made and invested in.

 

[1upsuper]

TBH I wonder if people stop at the true pacificist run because they care, or because that was how they were told how to play the game.

Plus I still don't really consider anyone who stops at true pacifist and then Googles the genocide run (or just aspects of it) to be much better. You just want to watch someone else do the dirty deed.

Dunno if this was partially directed at me or not, but I haven't been watching playthroughs of the Genocide route. If you engage with the Undertale community you're going to hear talk of that route, that's just the way it is. Nor do I think I share this "superiority complex" you later mention. I made my choices of my own volition and I'm comfortable with them. I do care, and I'm not part of some hive mind that says

Spoiler

you gotta respect the characters' happiness because everyone else does.

I think worrying about if people really "care" is totally unnecessary.

 

[dity]

I don't know anything about a 'superiority complex', but I definitely don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting that Undertale pretty clearly intends you to play and end it in a specific way. Using this to suggest you're better than people is silly, obviously.

Implicitly suggesting most people who stop at True Pacifist do it just because that's what 'they were told how to play' strikes me as very presumptuous, just on another end of the spectrum. The game

Spoiler

doesn't send you back to the main menu when you 'beat it' and explicitly asks you not to restart should you ever reopen the game. Undertale's messaging is very clear. And the former reason doesn't work unless you've already bought into Undertale's major message - that you care enough about the characters to consider them less a package of 'do this or that' variables and actual friends you've made and invested in.

But you just threw down a divide. "If the game's message resonated with you." It's putting up a major assumption about people who don't play the game like you do. Like, are those people lesser people if they don't finish the game there?

As for me wondering if people only play pacifist because that's how they were told how to play, well it's because the game's Steam page is very pacifist-run biased. It makes a very clear point of you not needing to kill enemies to complete the game. So naturally some people probably will just not kill enemies "because it said you didn't have to" (or something like that). It's been discussed before.

And like if you really are genuine here about how the game

Spoiler

asks you not to restart

you should probably be aware that (genocide spoilers)

Spoiler

Flowey, who conveys the message, has no compassion until he finally feels fear before the Sans fight. Him telling you to not restart isn't genuine. Flowey is Azriel after he loses any and all will to keep things nice because he's actually bored of that due to putting himself into a self-imposed time loop. He ran a pacifist run himself. To try and feel again. But he couldn't. Believing Flowey after you open the game after a true pacifist run despite the fact that Azriel says he will return to being only able to hate when the souls leaves him seems silly.

Anyway, I've run 99% of genocide and intend to complete it. Why? I chose to do so because I wanted to find out more about the characters. Lots more. And I have.

Spoiler

You discover Flowey's past, his motivation, his friendship. You see Undyne actually play the role of heroine, rather than just a hunter. You find out just how much Papyrus loves puzzles. Sans is fleshed out, he cares so much so much and will stop at nothing to protect everyone.

 

[Earthpainting]

TBH I wonder if people stop at the true pacificist run because they care, or because that was how they were told how to play the game.

Plus I still don't really consider anyone who stops at true pacifist and then Googles the genocide run (or just aspects of it) to be much better. You just want to watch someone else do the dirty deed.

The No Mercy run is definitely a draining endeavour, especially if you've done a pacifist one beforehand. The game goes out of its way to make you feel like a sack of shit, and it can come from the most unexpected places. The moment that really got to me was

Spoiler

Undyne mustering up some determination to survive the mortal blow and go super saiyan. The combination of her refusal to turn into dust, her restored eye turning into a laser one, and the game explicitly calling her the heroine of the run really got to me. You did it, girl. That was anime warrior princess as fuck.

I don't blame people who choose not to try both runs, even though it has plenty of worthwhile content to justify it. I do hope the game doesn't add achievements though, because I'm not sure what goals they could set. Both runs are too different to easily accommodate both styles of play, and if you are unable to get the achievements in a specific run, it would dictate how and what the player should be playing. I prefer it to be left open as it is.

 

[Saikyo]

So naturally some people probably will just not kill enemies "because it said you didn't have to" (or something like that). It's been discussed before.

Its funny because its one of the reasons I bought the game, there are very few games that give you a not agressive option to complete the game (majority is "just kill/knockout everything in your way and win) also before playing it the idea reminded of the demon negotiation in Persona 2 (after playing it was not like that).

 

[dity]

The No Mercy run is definitely a draining endeavour, especially if you've done a pacifist one beforehand. The game goes out of its way to make you feel like a sack of shit, and it can come from the most unexpected places. The moment that really got to me was

Spoiler

Undyne mustering up some determination to survive the mortal blow and go super saiyan. The combination of her refusal to turn into dust, her restored eye turning into a laser one, and the game explicitly calling her the heroine of the run really got to me. You did it, girl. That was anime warrior princess as fuck.

Within the whole game, that moment actually made me shiver. I thought it was the most intense moment. The music, the single line as the battle starts.

Spoiler

The Heroine appears

. I've said it multiple times now, but that is truly the game's greatest moment for me.

I don't blame people who choose not to try both runs, even though it has plenty of worthwhile content to justify it. I do hope the game doesn't add achievements though, because I'm not sure what goals they could set. Both runs are too different to easily accommodate both styles of play, and if you are unable to get the achievements in a specific run, it would dictate how and what the player should be playing. I prefer it to be left open as it is.

I don't blame people either, I'm just getting wary of how some people seem to be setting themselves up as more morally righteous than others and I wonder if they did do it due to their moral compass or if they just did it because they did it and are rationalising it later.

If there were achievements, I wouldn't want them to be the typical achievements. They should be silly ones achievable on neutral.

Its funny because its one of the reasons I bought the game, there are very few games that give you a not agressive option to complete the game (majority is "just kill/knockout everything in your way and win) also before playing it the idea reminded of the demon negotiation in Persona 2 (after playing it was not like that).

I actually bought it blindly, since a lot people I know were playing it. Learning about the pacifist elements in-game was quite the experience. And I really, really enjoyed all the wild and outlandish methods of conflict resolution and fight avoiding there were. Was always a pleasure to enter a flexing competition.

 

[OniBarubary]

Holy shit, I did True Pacifist run and that ending got a little too fucking real.

 

[JC Sera]

....I drew an art.....

*I just want you to remember me like this
*Someone that was your friend for a little while.

 

[1upsuper]

I don't blame people either, I'm just getting wary of how some people seem to be setting themselves up as more morally righteous than others and I wonder if they did do it due to their moral compass or if they just did it because they did it and are rationalising it later.

To be honest, your concern with whether people are really acting solely on behalf of their moral compass or as part of some post-end rationalization seems more like being "morally righteous" to me.