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Unionised staff at COD studio Raven Software says Activision is stalling over contract talks

Thick Thighs Save Lives

NeoGAF's Physical Games Advocate Extraordinaire
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The complaint, as reported by GameFile, alleged that Activision and Microsoft are guilty of “Refusal to Bargain / Bad Faith Bargaining”.

“After Microsoft’s acquisition of Activision Blizzard, our members were optimistic that they would progress quickly to a first contract at Raven Software,” CWA president Claude Cummings Jr told Game File.
“Unfortunately, that has not happened. We encourage Microsoft to address the concerns raised in the Unfair Labor Practice charge and make reaching a fair agreement a priority.”

A Microsoft spokesperson told Game File: “We are committed to negotiating in good faith.”
 
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I cannot believe that the acquisition cheerleaders thought that a mega acquisition by one of the most valuable capitalist entities in the world would result in a socialist paradise for workers.
 
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Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Still kinda amused by QA staff thinking they have any leverage to bargain with in the first place.

Newsflash, there are literally millions of people in less developed nations that will happily do that job for pennies on the dollar, because in their societies its comparatively easy money. Oh, and as a bonus, thanks to time-zone difference they'll be doing it when the rest of the dev-team are out of hours.

Compete with that.
 
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Fabieter

Member
Still kinda amused by QA staff thinking they have any leverage to bargain with in the first place.

Newsflash, there are literally millions of people in less developed nations that will happily do that job for pennies on the dollar, because in their societies its comparatively easy money. Oh, and as a bonus, thanks to time-zone difference they'll be doing it when the rest of the dev-team are out of hours.

Compete with that.

This can happen with most jobs done on a pc. Maybe even yours ;).
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
Still kinda amused by QA staff thinking they have any leverage to bargain with in the first place.

Newsflash, there are literally millions of people in less developed nations that will happily do that job for pennies on the dollar, because in their societies its comparatively easy money. Oh, and as a bonus, thanks to time-zone difference they'll be doing it when the rest of the dev-team are out of hours.

Compete with that.
And the whole idea for a union and collective bargaining is the state recognising that the well being of citizens takes precedence over unrestricted pursue of profit.
Microsoft is perfectly entitled to move their HQ to a Thailand in pursue of cheap labor. Don’t want to do it? Too bad, you play by the rules.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
This can happen with most jobs done on a pc. Maybe even yours ;).

True.
But the crux of the matter is how much training time is required and what are the consequences (particularly legal ones) for underperformance/incompetence/malpractice?

Most QA is repetitive drudgework, that most likely will get replaced by AI in a few years time anyway. Compare that to say someone doing similar stuff doing but in a field like financial/administrative casework, where there are multiple lines of checking and real consequences for fuckups... hence they are kept regional/national for safeguarding reasons.

Cyberpunkd Cyberpunkd

The key part in any sort of bargaining process is leverage; typically expressed through threats/action to withdraw labour collectively.
When that "threat" carries limited weight, bargaining power is diminished.
 
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Fabieter

Member
True.
But the crux of the matter is how much training time is required and what are the consequences (particularly legal ones) for underperformance/incompetence/malpractice?

Most QA is repetitive drudgework, that most likely will get replaced by AI in a few years time anyway. Compare that to say someone doing similar stuff doing but in a field like financial/administrative casework, where there are multiple lines of checking and real consequences for fuckups... hence they are kept regional/national for safeguarding reasons.

Cyberpunkd Cyberpunkd

The key part in any sort of bargaining process is leverage; typically expressed through threats/action to withdraw labour collectively.
When that "threat" carries limited weight, bargaining power is diminished.

I know people who work in IT at large companies, and they say they spend more time explaining tasks to teams in other countries than it would take to do the work themselves. These big companies always have great money-saving ideas that look good on paper, but in reality, they just end up placing more burden on the remaining high performers at their headquarters.
 

DrDryRub

Banned
This always happens. Both sides usually stall in talks to pressure the other side to ease up on their demands. It happened with my union contract not to long ago. We had to give up paid holidays but got back an additional .5% pay raise over what was asked for.
 

Metnut

Member
I hope Microsoft pays through the nose here. If they can spend $70,000,000,000 for the acquisition, they can bargain here. The acquisition is worth little without the actual people who make the games.
 
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FeralEcho

Member
Raven being exiled to the CoD mines is one of the worst tragedies in gaming. Their old pc fps games were amazing.
Not only that but they made some amazing games with licensed IPs such as Star Wars,X-men and Marvel.

They are one of the most underrated and best devs in Activision's portfolio along with Vicarious Visions and Toys for Bob.

Their 2 Modern Warfare remasters are incredible as well and shit all over the new COD.
 
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jm89

Member
I cannot believe that the acquisition cheerleaders thought that a mega acquisition by one of the most valuable capitalist entities in the world would result in a socialist paradise for workers.
Most of them never believed that and were bullshitting.

Alot of them had money on the line, so they put on this false support for the workers and unions to help support the acquistion.

Lulu cheng is one example who got out like a bandit and dissapeared into the sunset.
 
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DrDryRub

Banned
I cannot believe that the acquisition cheerleaders thought that a mega acquisition by one of the most valuable capitalist entities in the world would result in a socialist paradise for workers.
Microsoft is one of the better companies in the world to work for. Yes they are a mega Corp, yes the evil empire is still there always lurking in the background but as a mega Corp they are a good place for the average worker to have a career at.

It's not like this was a Hostile take over of ABK, ABK was for sale and if MS didn't buy them Amazon, Google, tencent,Apple or Saudi Arabia would have. How's Google's game studios doing? Saudi? Embracer? Apple? Even meta? Xbox may be a mess but make no mistake Ms didn't spend 69b to destroy ABK or make the lives of the devs miserable.
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
I know people who work in IT at large companies, and they say they spend more time explaining tasks to teams in other countries than it would take to do the work themselves. These big companies always have great money-saving ideas that look good on paper, but in reality, they just end up placing more burden on the remaining high performers at their headquarters.
Yeah, I ran a program a few years back with a team in Bangalore. They were not bad group of engineers but the time difference just killed a lot of benefits due to going back and forth.

I also had to fly out to India couple of times with my software lead to get a better grip on things. We could have easily hired 1/2 the engineers for the same money and gotten better results. India is still significantly cheaper of course hence 1/2 or less headcount in US for that cost.
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
Microsoft is one of the better companies in the world to work for. Yes they are a mega Corp, yes the evil empire is still there always lurking in the background but as a mega Corp they are a good place for the average worker to have a career at.

It's not like this was a Hostile take over of ABK, ABK was for sale and if MS didn't buy them Amazon, Google, tencent,Apple or Saudi Arabia would have. How's Google's game studios doing? Saudi? Embracer? Apple? Even meta? Xbox may be a mess but make no mistake Ms didn't spend 69b to destroy ABK or make the lives of the devs miserable.
MS is ok place if you are at Redmond or another dev hub. Unless of course you are one of over 20K people who got laid off over last year.

MS jobs in the data centers, support, and consulting suck.

Edit: Talking about full time employees, not contractors.
 
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AmuroChan

Member
The inherent problem with CBTs and unions is that the process only works if the union side has leverage, which in this case they don't. Think sports unions. The NBA can't survive without its star players. So the NBPA has incredible leverage when negotiating with the league and was able to secure a 51/49 revenue split in favor of the players. That's simply not going to happen in the gaming space anytime soon.
 

FalconPunch

Gold Member
Hey, western publishers! Here in China we have made Wu Kong, we have no unionized developers and no DEI shit

We have even cookies!
I'll never understand people arguing against unionization wearing it as a badge of honor when it is indeed a badge of stupidity. The only people who should ever argue against unions is business owners. If you're an employee and you argue against unions, you're arguing against your best interests.
 

Sintoid

Member
I'll never understand people arguing against unionization wearing it as a badge of honor when it is indeed a badge of stupidity. The only people who should ever argue against unions is business owners. If you're an employee and you argue against unions, you're arguing against your best interests.
You seem to not understand that this is not my position but a possible (but probably almost sure) strategy that Publishers will adopt. It already happened in mechanical, animation and many other business branches - Rising costs and welfare shift work where it costs less. Whether this is right or not
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
This always happens. Both sides usually stall in talks to pressure the other side to ease up on their demands. It happened with my union contract not to long ago. We had to give up paid holidays but got back an additional .5% pay raise over what was asked for.
Yeah this isn't exactly a surprise, unions battling with companies over deals is the norm.
 

MagusMajul

Member
I believe labor unions are a cancer and should be outlawed. They are just a means for the mob to extort private business and hike up inflation. Union workers are overpaid and cause the price of goods and services to go up hurting the consumer more than anything. If I owned a business that employed other people I would sooner burn my factory to the ground or set up shop in another country than unionize.

Unions are also a cudgel for extremist elements to enter government but seeing as politics are banned on GAF I won't get into it. I'll just say the free market is the best way to dictate business. The owner has the right to pay whatever wage that is agreed upon and the worker has the right to refuse.
 
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poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I believe labor unions are a cancer and should be outlawed. They are just a means for the mob to extort private business and hike up inflation. Union workers are overpaid and cause the price of goods and services to go up hurting the consumer more than anything. If I owned a business that employed other people I would sooner burn my factory to the ground or set up shop in another country than unionize.

Unions are also a cudgel for extremist elements to enter government but seeing as politics are banned on GAF I won't get into it. I'll just say the free market is the best way to dictate business. The owner has the right to pay whatever wage that is agreed upon and the worker has the right to refuse.
What? Unions have positives and negatives but the free market is completely imbalanced when it comes to employer/employee relations, hence why, even without unions, we have lots of regulations to rein in employers.
 

MagusMajul

Member
What? Unions have positives and negatives but the free market is completely imbalanced when it comes to employer/employee relations, hence why, even without unions, we have lots of regulations to rein in employers.
And that's a bad thing. Regulations hurt profits and growth. If i own a company and have to pay old hands 120K a year plus pensions, healthcare, vacations, just because they've worked there for over 20 years and it's in the contract, well then I can't hire other new employees or sell my products at competitive prices. Regulations are just a way to extort business through fines and fees and quid pro quo graft.

If you don't like your job then quit it, if you can't find a good job than either move or learn new skills, better yet try to start your own business and see how the world and reality really is. The world owes you nothing and your employer owes only whats been agreed upon employment.
 
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go on strike, CoD gets delayed two years..the FTC is watching and Ms is in a vulnerable position..... these people better keep the pressure on.
 
And that's a bad thing. Regulations hurt profits and growth. If i own a company and have to pay old hands 120K a year plus pensions, healthcare, vacations, just because they've worked there for over 20 years and it's in the contract, well then I can't hire other new employees or sell my products at competitive prices. Regulations are just a way to extort business through fines and fees and quid pro quo graft.

If you don't like your job then quit it, if you can't find a good job than either move or learn new skills, better yet try to start your own business and see how the world and reality really is. The world owes you nothing and your employer owes only whats been agreed upon employment.

This is fine and dandy in an environment where there aren’t outright monopolies everywhere
 

simpatico

Member
Fire all the Raven vets immediately please. We need them to get motivated to start and indie studio and make some SP FPS goodness. I hope activision walks them out this afternoon.
 

Three

Gold Member
I would like to respond but politics are banned on here. So I'll just recommend that you look into philosophers Leonard Peikoff and Yaron Brook
You're allowed to discuss the idea of unions in a thread about unions. I'm not sure what Leonard Peikoff has got to do with this though. His idea of obectivisim would mean that the group of people who form a union to get more from the corporation are just doing what's best for them. Your idea is that they drive up prices but so does a monopolistic company who has control over the workforce and consumers too. Unless you're saying a corporate monopoly doing what's best for the company is good but a union doing what's best for their workforce is not.
 
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