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[Jonm1010]

Again, the crisis (meaning, the fiasco surround it): yes, manufactured. The fact that we are perpetually running up against the debt ceiling is a real (ongoing) crisis.

Based on what?

Demand for our treasury bonds is large. 60% of our debt is owned by us or is one part of our government owing another part and our largest foreign holders are two allies and one friendly competitor that has no interest in seeing us default.

Is large long term sustained debt ideal? No. Is it currently a crisis? No.

 

[SteveWinwood]

How is this not the same thing? Shouldn't get on people just because they vote a different way. At least they vote.

I never said it's the way it should be! Just the way it is!

 

[Angry Grimace]

Third party votes don't matter in our system. This is not true of every system of course, but you go to vote with the system you have. Maybe if Jill Stein got ~20% of the vote like Perot, the issues she harped on would be co-opted by one of the major parties. That's not going to happen, she will get <1% of the vote and be forgotten tomorrow.



No... it was completely manufactured.



The debt ceiling is manufactured too. If Congress thought we had too much debt they can cut spending. Congress has budget experts, they know how much will have to be borrowed every time the budget is approved. No other country has a debt ceiling AFAIK.

A lot of countries have debt ceilings, although its typically not an issue.

 

[Kusagari]

You don't think they are going for local positions?

Like I said earlier, if I were in a swing state, I would vote for Obama, but since Texas isn't going to be in play for at least another two election cycles, I'm going to give my vote to the Green party. It wasn't just for president.

There was no third parties on the ballot at the local levels in my state. That's what they should be focusing all their attention on. Get greens on the ballot in major states like Florida, California, New York, etc.

As I've said before, even if a third party were to become president they would accomplish nothing. You think the Democrats or Republicans will work with them and jeopardize their two party dominance?

Greens/Libertarians/etc need to get a presence in congress first.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Please tell me they're doing holograms again. I refuse to watch CNN so I'll have to rely on reports.

anything less than 2pac hologram technology will be a let down

 

[teruterubozu]

It's going to be a 269-269 tie with a complete popular tie and Wolf Blitzer will grow his eight arms and seven heads and begin chanting the Forever Hymn as the moon turns to blood

I would love to see Blitzer's true cosmic form.

 

[RDreamer]

Bernanke, is that you?

No, just someone that understands out monetary system.

 

[Servizio]

Dead Heat would be a great name for a Left 4 Dead 2 map that takes place in a post-Hurricane, post-Zombie Apocalypse, post-Election Florida.

 

[Jackben]

+1 Jill Stein in Ohio, come at me bro.

#winning

 

[Eric WK]

Statistically speaking, voting for anyone is no different than not voting at all. Obama really doesn't give a shit if he has 69,499,428 or 69,499,427 votes.

Statistically speaking, fifty million Americans won't vote at all today, many of whom will be using logic that says their vote does not matter. That's far from insignificant.

And while the electoral college determines the Presidency, the popular vote determines legitimacy. Every vote counts.

 

[Flying Toaster]

It's going to be a 269-269 tie with a complete popular tie and Wolf Blitzer will grow his eight arms and seven heads and begin chanting the Forever Hymn as the moon turns to blood

This would be amazing. You shouldn't tease awesomness like this.

 

[Interfectum]

+1 Jill Stein in Ohio, come at me bro.

Romney thanks you for your vote.

 

[Stumpokapow]

There is actually more to democracy than voting, much more. After all, the names on your ballot don't just get picked from thin air.

It's funny, I'm teaching an undergraduate Canadian Politics course right now and the theme of the course is "political participation". The students are really really good about talking about how voting is important, and I'm sure their voter participation is much higher than their cohort as a whole, which is great. But very few of them realize that there's a lot more to the process than voting.

Don't just vote. Vote in primaries. Volunteer with parties and outside parties. Donate time and money to interest groups. Be a volunteer on election day, driving people to the polling places. Write letters. Write emails. Run for office. Build civil society groups. Make changes in your own life to improve the world. Argue about it with friends. Take a political science course. Read a book. Consider public service instead of being in the private sector. Join the military. It all adds up.

Statistically speaking, voting for anyone is no different than not voting at all. Obama really doesn't give a shit if he has 69,499,428 or 69,499,427 votes.

social: tragedy of the commons / free-rider problem
political: legitimacy especially in the event of an EV/PV split, "mandate" narrative, issue salience
electoral: close states, 500 votes in 2000, etc.

 

[Evlar]

I dropped my vote into a postage free collection box last night. If a meteor struck that box this morning, singing my vote to a crisp, it would not make any possible difference in the number of electors sworn to Obama, regardless whether I voted blue, red, green, or fuligin. No one's puppy will be kicked, no one's slush fund will be drained, no one's grandma will lose her MediCare over that vote.

Local elections, on the other hand, could be impacted. My vote is much more important for selecting who runs Olympia and Seattle.

 

[FlashFlooder]

No, just someone that understands out monetary system.

hahaha, sure you do.

As if it's something that's just simply 'understood'. People have dedicated their lives to economic theory, and still can't come to a consensus. But you, you understand.

 

[Izayoi]

+1 Jill Stein in Ohio, come at me bro.

I love Jill Stein, but that definitely could've been traded and used as a vote for Obama. Come on, man. Not in a state as important as Ohio.

 

[led4lyfe]

+1 Jill Stein in Ohio, come at me bro.

+1 Jill Stein in Virginia. Feels good man

 

[Hitokage]

Statistically speaking, fifty million Americans won't vote at all today, many of whom will be using logic that says their vote does not matter. That's far from insignificant.

And while the electoral college determines the Presidency, the popular vote determines legitimacy. Every vote counts.

Rather, the idea that your vote alone won't change anything rests on the assumption that everyone else acts the same. If a percentage of people who would otherwise vote but don't then that's far more than the claimed single digit adjustment.

Voting matters precisely because it's an aggregate.

 

[Interfectum]

+1 Jill Stein in Virginia. Feels good man

 

[leroidys]

I dropped my vote into a postage free collection box last night. If a meteor struck that box this morning, singing my vote to a crisp, it would not make any possible difference in the number of electors sworn to Obama, regardless whether I voted blue, red, green, or fuligin. No one's puppy will be kicked, no one's slush fund will be drained, no one's grandma will lose her MediCare over that vote.

Local elections, on the other hand, could be impacted. My vote is much more important for selecting who runs Olympia and Seattle.

I hope you voted yes on 502 and 74!

 

[kingkitty]

+1 Jill Stein in Virginia. Feels good man

hi five bro.

 

[FlashFlooder]

I hope you voted yes on 514 and 74!

I hope he voted 3rd party on 514 and 74.

 

[MetalGuardian]

Skip the coffee on the way to vote and donate what you would have spent on one to interest groups that represent the issues you feel strongly on.

For drone strikes, your best friends in interest groups would probably be the ACLU and EFF. Doctors Without Borders and the International Committee of the Red Cross would be good choices for trying to help reduce the harm drone strikes can cause as well. Even a $10 donation offers more real-world change that the intellectual exercise of voting Green (or even your portion of the match funds they'd get if they got 5%, which they won't).

As far as who you vote for? Your choice. Vote Green, vote Democratic, hell vote Republican. As you mention, in Illinois it won't matter. I live in another country so it's not my business who you vote for. Personally my tendency would be to vote within the rules of the system (in the US, this means voting for a major-party candidate) and try to change the rules of the system from outside. Make sense?

This is a very good point. Money speaks much louder than a single vote.

I've been telling myself that voting Green will at least be some sort of statement showing my distaste in the two-party system, but after reading about Duverger's Law I know intellectually that a Green vote won't really matter. And as a PR major that has taken some classes that go in depth into what it takes to run an effective issues-driven campaign, the Green Party has failed pretty stupendously. I'm sure a large portion of that is due to lack of finances, but they do a poor job getting their message out in the two and a half-ish years where the presidential election isn't dominating political discussion. For the Green Party to have any sort of effective movement it needs to be a focused, long-term effort that doesn't let up the moment the office they have no chance of winning anyway is awarded to someone else.

As a separate point, after voting for McCain in 08 (lulz), it would be nice to vote for Obama and thus be a part of the winning team this year.

We'll see I guess. I probably won't make up my mind definitively until the ballot is right in front of me

 

[NullPointer]

+1 Obama/Biden in sunny San Francisco, California.

Found my copy of Halo 4 waiting for me at home too. So, cya until later tonight folks.

VOTE! and keep the Hopium alive.

 

[RPGamer92]

Anyone voting for third parties in swing states is literally losing votes for Obama imo.

 

[Izayoi]

I hope he voted 3rd party on 514 and 74.

I sure hope not, considering that those are recreational marijuana and gay marriage, respectively.

 

[RDreamer]

hahaha, sure you do.

As if it's something that's just simply 'understood'. People have dedicated their lives to economic theory, and still can't come to a consensus. But you, you understand.

It doesn't even need to go that far, though. Even if you use the old understanding of our system, most economists agree at this time we should be spending much more. Reign in spending and/or tax later, sure. But durin a recession it's absolute fucking madness to grandstand about our debt especially at the rates we can borrow. It's lunacy. You're affecting real people that need real jobs and real food to feed them.

 

[FlashFlooder]

Anyone voting for third parties in swing states is literally losing votes for Obama imo.

What if my 2nd choice was Romney?

 

[Izayoi]

Anyone voting for third parties in swing states is literally losing votes for Obama imo.

It's not your opinion, it's fact. Voting for a third party in a swing state is voting for Romney.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Do it. I don't even agree with the guy, but you know Texas is going to Romney anyway. Use your vote to help get Johnson up to 5% so he can get that federal money and increase his and his party's presence on the national level.

there's zero chance of any 3rd party getting 5% of the vote. zero.

 

[TheNatural]

What if my 2nd choice was Romney?

Or just not voting.

 

[heliosRAzi]

There was no third parties on the ballot at the local levels in my state. That's what they should be focusing all their attention on. Get greens on the ballot in major states like Florida, California, New York, etc.

As I've said before, even if a third party were to become president they would accomplish nothing. You think the Democrats or Republicans will work with them and jeopardize their two party dominance?

People who vote third party realize that their candidate won't be able to do much as President. Shit, we realize that they won't become President. However if they get to 5% in the popular vote, they gee a lot more money which, in turn, means more exposure as a party. Anyway, it's a moot point because third parties do both: they go after local stuff and the national stuff.

In Texas, there are a lot of Libertarians running for office throughout the state. Greens are pretty much limited to the liberal havens in the state such as Austin. As of today, there are 135 Greens that hold office

 

[Tobor]

What if my 2nd choice was Romney?

Then the Democratic Party thanks you for your third party vote. Lol.

 

[EricM85]

I hope he voted 3rd party on 514 and 74.

502.

 

[kingkitty]

my family in Ohio are traditionally democratic voters, and they voted for Obama in 2008. But luckily I convinced them all to switch their votes for Jill Stein. It's time for real change.

 

[FlashFlooder]

I sure hope not, considering that those are recreational marijuana and gay marriage, respectively.

most any 3rd party would be voting the right way on these issues, anyway

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What if my 2nd choice was Romney?

I'd be extremely surprised.

I just can't imagine that someone would go from a 3rd party candidate to Romney.

my family in Ohio are traditionally democratic voters, and they voted for Obama in 2008. But luckily I convinced them all to switch their votes for Jill Stein. It's time for real change.

Oh, another dude getting his kicks by trolling everyone?

 

[Kusagari]

NADER couldn't even sniff 5%

Anyone who thinks Jill Stein or Gary Johnson will even top 3% of the vote must be on crack.

 

[TheNatural]

It's not your opinion, it's fact. Voting for a third party in a swing state is voting for Romney.

No, it's an opinion. And a wrong one at that. Maybe you should go learn the definition between fact and opinion.

 

[gutter_trash]

exactly

 

[Evlar]

I hope you voted yes on 514 and 74!

Yes, sure did.

 

[Eric WK]

Quick question for the people voting third party in battleground states:

Clearly you care enough about the direction of this country to make your voice heard. With that being said, would you rather see Mitt Romney or Barack Obama win this election?

 

[Stumpokapow]

This is a very good point. Money speaks much louder than a single vote.

I've been telling myself that voting Green will at least be some sort of statement showing my distaste in the two-party system, but after reading about Duverger's Law I know intellectually that a Green vote won't really matter. And as a PR major that has taken some classes that go in depth into what it takes to run an effective issues-driven campaign, the Green Party has failed pretty stupendously. I'm sure a large portion of that is due to lack of finances, but they do a poor job getting their message out in the two and a half-ish years where the presidential election isn't dominating political discussion. For the Green Party to have any sort of effective movement it needs to be a focused, long-term effort that doesn't let up the moment the office they have no chance of winning anyway is awarded to someone else.

As a separate point, after voting for McCain in 08 (lulz), it would be nice to vote for Obama and thus be a part of the winning team this year.

We'll see I guess. I probably won't make up my mind definitively until the ballot is right in front of me

Regardless of who you choose, it's great that you're voting and it's excellent that you're critically considering the issues and the nature of American democracy and the rules which separate winners from losers. The more people who are informed, the better the outcomes are going to be long-term and the healthier the Democracy will be.

 

[maquiladora]

my family in Ohio are traditionally democratic voters, and they voted for Obama in 2008. But luckily I convinced them all to switch their votes for Jill Stein. It's time for real change.

Hmm...

 

[ivysaur12]

I would understand voting for Roseanne Barr because she's from the Peace and Freedom party and I like Peace and Freedom.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

my family in Ohio are traditionally democratic voters, and they voted for Obama in 2008. But luckily I convinced them all to switch their votes for Jill Stein. It's time for real change.

I can't tell if you're trolling or just badly misinformed about voting 3rd party in the US.
My gut says the former.

 

[Jonm1010]

Which is more important, your vote being a bigger percentage of a campaigns total votes? Where in the future it could garner them more support to become a third party power and maybe one day garner enough votes to at least get them in the debate like Ross Perot.

Or just voting for one of the two parties where you're a smaller percentage of their total, and your one vote doesn't matter, period.

And you're just ignorant period. I'm not on here lecturing people on which way to vote. If it makes YOU feel good sitting on a message board trying to tell people what to do, maybe you should get a life.

Tell me in the history of the last 100 years how many votes for a third party presidential candidate have led to a strong third party emerging?

Your setting up a false choice. Ross Perot came about because he was a billionaire who could buy his way into relevancy temporarily. But he failed to have the necciaarry groundwork for long term influence and sustainability. You seem to be very good at using broken logic but it's not really achieving any meaningful points on your behalf.

The one successful recipe we have continually had for achieving change in the political landscape has been grassroots efforts and local up influence. Civil rights, the tea party, Vietnam protests. Grassroots on up. That's where your meaningful change has a historical basis for working, not once every four years protest votes and wishful thinking.

 

[Hootie]

It's not your opinion, it's fact. Voting for a third party in a swing state is voting for Romney.

:lol

I hope youre trolling

 

[Tex117]

Im impressed with the Jill Stein voters in Ohio and Virginia.

A few posts back I spoke about courage. This is where the rubber meets the road.

Inspite of what the vote means in a general sense, you held true to your own convictions politically and refused to be played by the two party system.

 

[MetalGuardian]

Regardless of who you choose, it's great that you're voting and it's excellent that you're critically considering the issues and the nature of American democracy and the rules which separate winners from losers. The more people who are informed, the better the outcomes are going to be long-term and the healthier the Democracy will be.

*Democracy-Five*