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[bender]

This guy is amazing...

 

[DragoonKain]

I don't care man.

Make change to healthcare or expect escalation. Stop apologizing for institutionalized murder if murder being a criminal offense is so important to you.

That's on elected officials and that's not happening any time soon. Nor is escalation. He will have no more influence on the healthcare system than Kaczynski had on technological advancement.

 

[Kacho]

 

[Kraz]

That's on elected officials and that's not happening any time soon. Nor is escalation. He will have no more influence on the healthcare system than Kaczynski had on technological advancement.

That's my impression as well. It will occupy conversation, frustrations being aired, but not escalate or change American health practices in the current state, even if it became more inaccessible due to austerity.

 

[Vicetrailia]

That's on elected officials and that's not happening any time soon. Nor is escalation. He will have no more influence on the healthcare system than Kaczynski had on technological advancement.

I'd only think that way if I were subservient. It already enacted "temporary change", but obviously billionaires and CEOs are persistent and will try to go back on that change in a few months.

But I think you are missing that doing nothing has been leading to things getting worse and worse and worse, creating more and more anger. It's not going away. It's up to the people to decide how bad it will get, because billionaires will take it all the way they have no limit.

 

[12Goblins]

So you’re trying to say the dude deserved to be assassinated because he didn’t want to pay for rich people’s Botox? Fuck off.

Bruh nobody is saying Brian Thompson deserved to be assassinated, but coming to the defense of insurance companies that are incentivized to be as crafty as possible to deny people the basic care that they need and PAID FOR is an odd take... There's a reason why they had to shut down r/medicine for a while because all this outpouring came out from physicians outraged at insurance companies denying simple things like anti nausea meds for CHILDREN undergoing chemotherapy... Physicians are fed up having to deal with this shit

 

[ManaByte]

Bruh nobody is saying Brian Thompson deserved to be assassinated

 

[NickFire]

I'd only think that way if I were subservient.

I suspect most people supporting the killer are subservient to a handful of algorithms and other negative influences.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I suspect most people supporting the killer are subservient to a handful of algorithms and other negative influences.

You sound like you would've fled to Quebec in 1783.

 

[Dacvak]

The guy you’re quoting cheers on woke stuff and hopes a killer gets off. Don’t think you’re going to find common ground with him.

 

[Kacho]

When our core values are radically different?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Its disingenuous to act surprised when people in a country that was created via political violence, in which significant change and progress has been largely made through political violence, believe that political violence is needed and/or will produce significant change again.

 

[DragoonKain]

I'd only think that way if I were subservient. It already enacted "temporary change", but obviously billionaires and CEOs are persistent and will try to go back on that change in a few months.

But I think you are missing that doing nothing has been leading to things getting worse and worse and worse, creating more and more anger. It's not going away. It's up to the people to decide how bad it will get, because billionaires will take it all the way they have no limit.

If you're not subservient, then what have you done to try to change the healthcare system?

Anyway, I don't know that things are really any worse than they were 10 years ago. Millions of people are insured. Some get things denied. It's the way it's always been. The only wholesale way to change it is to change the entire system and go for a Medicare for all option. And that would have pissed off people for other reasons. Especially in a country with this many people, I don't know if Canada could even be used as a model, because America has so many more people.

 

[Kraz]

The Cool Hand Luke Captains only want it that way if it's their way.

 

[12Goblins]

Eventually enough people will be so burnt out and resentful at having been unfairly treated that they will vote for anyone that proposes any radical changes like Bernie or Yang that will probably be just as dysfunctional.

 

[ReBurn]

Has anyone applauded UNH for the claims that they do approve? I’m sure there are cancer patients that have gotten hundreds of thousands of dollars covered thanks to this insurance company.

Instead, we’re hearing the outrage over the unapproved claims for whacky, unconventional treatment like bee venom therapy for auto-immune disorders or fecal transplants.

Insurance companies are a business. They need to make money otherwise the system falls apart. They’re not going to do that by approving every claim.

Nobody notices when things go as planned, so of course there's no applause for it. We mostly hear about things when they don't go as planned and only seeing the negative shapes perspective. Kinda like how most people who have the experience they expect won't rate a business positively, but when people don't have the experience they expect they will rate negatively.

I don't buy into a business is business perspective when it comes to insurance companies. They have risk models making life and death decisions and many times they get it wrong. But in my personal experience I've had good care with the insurance benefits that I have even with chronic illness, though I've been fortunate to not need treatment for a critical illness. Overall I think the system does more good than harm, we just hear more about the harm.

 

[crazepharmacist]

One of the most turned down surgeries is Spinal Fusion Surgeries. Those are medically necessary for people to exist outside of their home.

I mean, I don’t think I’m wrong to have the opinion that if someone is getting spinal fusion it better be 100% medically necessary and they better have exhausted all conservative treatment options first because that’s an intense surgery with a very long recovery period and not always great outcome. I’m glad insurance companies do their due diligence and only approve it in limited cases because not every Joe Schmo with a slipped disk should be getting operated on.

 

[12Goblins]

A cry for help maybe? Sadly "gurwinder" admits he never got back to him. I think this a lot of people's problem today - they have no idea how to curate all the incoming garbage and are left resentful and angry at some illusionary shit with no basis in reality

 

[FullMetalx117]

Just want to point out that even some deep conservatives are not exactly against the assassin. It's not just dem crazy libs with no morals

 

[EviLore]

I mean, I don’t think I’m wrong to have the opinion that if someone is getting spinal fusion it better be 100% medically necessary and they better have exhausted all conservative treatment options first because that’s an intense surgery with a very long recovery period and not always great outcome. I’m glad insurance companies do their due diligence and only approve it in limited cases because not every Joe Schmo with a slipped disk should be getting operated on.

One could argue that it’s better when a doctor decides what’s medically necessary. The insurance companies employ doctors to sign off on these decisions but often they’re rubber stamping decisions in the best interests of the insurance company rather than the patient.

Obviously there does need to be oversight to ensure the system doesn’t overextend itself from medically unnecessary procedures, but profit motive is a concern when lives are on the line.

 

[usctrojan]

I like how both sides are experts here

 

[Kacho]

Just want to point out that even some deep conservatives are not exactly against the assassin. It's not just dem crazy libs with no morals

I don’t think many people view this as a left vs right thing. At least I don’t. I’m a very conservative person and I disagree with anyone that views the killer as a hero no matter what their politics are.

Like, I don’t care if you’re indifferent about the guy getting killed. But people lose me when they actively cheer it on. I also don’t believe this is some catalyst for a revolution, nor do I think things are so bad that violence like this is necessary.

 

[crazepharmacist]

One could argue that it’s better when a doctor decides what’s medically necessary. The insurance companies employ doctors to sign off on these decisions but often they’re rubber stamping decisions in the best interests of the insurance company rather than the patient.

Obviously there does need to be oversight to ensure the system doesn’t overextend itself from medically unnecessary procedures, but profit motive is a concern when lives are on the line.

I don't agree with that after I've seen how many surgeons who have that scalpel happy, cut first, ask questions later type of mentality. They have a financial incentive to perform as many surgeries as possible. There definitely needs to be oversight and I think insurance companies play a vital part in that role. But yeah, the system is definitely not perfect.

I'm an RN and there is one cardiologist well known in my hospital because she puts pacemakers in everyone. Even 90-year-old bedridden, demented patients. Is that procedure medically necessary for that type of patient? How is that improving their quality of life? Who knows but I can bet the insurance company is footing the bill and the doctor is getting a nice fat paycheck.

 

[FullMetalx117]

I don’t think many people view this as a left vs right thing. At least I don’t. I’m a very conservative person and I disagree with anyone that views the killer as a hero no matter what their politics are.

Like, I don’t care if you’re indifferent about the guy getting killed. But people lose me when they actively cheer it on. I also don’t believe this is some catalyst for a revolution, nor do I think things are so bad that violence like this is necessary.

Agreed that no one seems to care about the CEO at all in this, must be terrible feeling for his family. I do find it fascinating though, that even the religious folk and some of the more steadfast conservatives, can actually even have a debate/conversation about this. No consensus. When a subject matter like this - killing - should probably have a point blank answer. So no matter what happens verdict/jury wise, the assassin succeeded in creating conversation/somewhat dissent amongst groups that typically hold the line, a rare feat.

I have yet to see Elon, political leaders, come out point blank condemning this either...only one I have seen is the replaced UNH CEO

 

[EviLore]

I don't agree with that after I've seen how many surgeons who have that scalpel happy, cut first, ask questions later type of mentality. They have a financial incentive to perform as many surgeries as possible. There definitely needs to be oversight and I think insurance companies play a vital part in that role. But yeah, the system is definitely not perfect.

I'm an RN and there is one cardiologist well known in my hospital because she puts pacemakers in everyone. Even 90-year-old bedridden, demented patients. Is that procedure medically necessary for that type of patient? How is that improving their quality of life? Who knows but I can bet the insurance company is footing the bill and the doctor is getting a nice fat paycheck.

Yes, a common occurrence everywhere in the US.

Pharma companies are continuously bribing doctors with free stuff as well, in exchange for pushing the latest drugs. If only people knew the extent of the corruption throughout the system.

 

[Kacho]

I have yet to see Elon, political leaders, come out point blank condemning this either...only one I have seen is the replaced UNH CEO

I noticed that too. I think the topic is way too spicy to jump in right now. No matter what you say you end up alienating a huge portion of people. Not worth it.

 

[12Goblins]

honestly initially I thought it might have been one self arranged assassinations that rich people like to do (consensual homicide I think it's called?) especially when the first thing the wife said 'Yea it's cuz he loved to deny coverage" right off the bat

 

[IntentionalPun]

Yeah honestly the insurance companies are a tiny part of what is fucked up about health care in this country. They certainly aren't responsible for the astronomical prices, as they make around a ~3-4% profit margin. Even if we made them all non-profits they'd just have all combined an extra ~$40 billion to go around. Which sounds like a lot, but when a single surgery that isn't even that uncommon can run $200k+ it goes fast. Their profit in total about $100 per American.

Still at the macro level it feels ugly having a health insurance CEO getting paid $10 million a year + loads of stock.

But this is all such an uphill battle that starts with the core costs at play, the equipment, the high paid staff, the malpractice insurance, etc. and then each layer of the system is taking their ~3-5% cut on top of that. We still end up with massive healthcare costs if we make all hospitals and insurance companies non-profit, and change nothing else.

 

[sharp weiner]

Yes, a common occurrence everywhere in the US.

Pharma companies are continuously bribing doctors with free stuff as well, in exchange for pushing the latest drugs. If only people knew the extent of the corruption throughout the system.

That’s not corruption, that’s capitalism. The most efficient way to make money will be the result as t—> infinity

 

[FullMetalx117]

Yeah honestly the insurance companies are a tiny part of what is fucked up about health care in this country. They certainly aren't responsible for the astronomical prices, as they make around a ~3-4% profit margin. Even if we made them all non-profits they'd just have all combined an extra ~$40 billion to go around. Which sounds like a lot, but when a single surgery that isn't even that uncommon can run $200k+ it goes fast. Their profit in total about $100 per American.

Still at the macro level it feels ugly having a health insurance CEO getting paid $10 million a year + loads of stock.

But this is all such an uphill battle that starts with the core costs at play, the equipment, the high paid staff, the malpractice insurance, etc. and then each layer of the system is taking their ~3-5% cut on top of that. We still end up with massive healthcare costs if we make all hospitals and insurance companies non-profit, and change nothing else.

The concept of having health insurance company be "for profit" publicly traded is just odd though. The company employs 440K people, A LOT of bloat in my opinion, but obviously providing a lot of people jobs/something to do.

My understanding of how insurance companies make the profit - they take the premiums and invest in stocks/bonds/other securities that are relatively low risk to get return on their holdings. The problem with this, though, is that something like UNH essentially becomes an index fund over time - it's not about the health care, it's about the margin they get on the investable funds. The highest paid people at UNH probably the finance guys. Incentives for employees at UNH are likely not based on who was most successful at "implementing value based care". That's a failed company, in my eyes. Profit sure, but failed mission statement.

 

[sharp weiner]

It was striking to me that Blue Cross Blue Shield reversed their policy almost immediately after the killing. The policy about not covering anesthesia for surgery’s that go long.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

I know of a medical supplier company that sells toilet paper 10.00 / roll and a pack of 250 nitrile gloves for 400.00 (you can buy a competitor's for like 50$)

They're definitely milking the system.

 

[IntentionalPun]

The concept of having health insurance company be "for profit" publicly traded is just odd though. The company employs 440K people, A LOT of bloat in my opinion, but obviously providing a lot of people jobs/something to do.

My understanding of how insurance companies make the profit - they take the premiums and invest in stocks/bonds/other securities that are relatively low risk to get return on their holdings. The problem with this, though, is that something like UNH essentially becomes an index fund over time - it's not about the health care, it's about the margin they get on the investable funds. The highest paid people at UNH probably the finance guys. Incentives for employees at UNH are likely not based on who was most successful at "implementing value based care". That's a failed company, in my eyes. Profit sure, but failed mission statement.

Yeah I mean they are all "financial services" companies for the most part along with insurance companies.

And agreed on just the concept not feeling right; similar to what I said about the CEO making $10 million+ tons of stock a year.

Just saying it's the tip of a very deep iceberg.

 

[The Fartist]

My original statement wasn't hard to understand.

I meant you're assuming he took mushrooms for his back pain and therefore wasn't thinking straight and decided to kill the guy and carry a manifesto with him.

Don't take it personal, I don't think you're a moron, I just wanted to use the .gif for the lulz

 

[DragoonKain]

I was reading something today where a large portion of money spent in the healthcare system are homeless and/or mentally ill people who are admitted and need treatment over and over again. There are always going to be anecdotal cases where someone's claim is rejected who needs care. I'm one. I take a medication for a chronic issues that I've been taking for over a decade, and the authorization expired, so my doctor's office sent in a new one and for some reason my insurance company rejected it. When it's super important for me and they know I've been taking it for years. But they rejected it anyway. My doctor appealed and it got approved though. (And guess what, I didn't feel the desire to murder the CEO).

But if you were to take every claim that was rejected by an insurance company. I wonder how many would be desperate and horribly ill people needing life-saving care and how many would be someone abusing meds or someone who just got an MRI 3 weeks ago who is OCD, feels a little twinge in their leg and wants another MRI. I don't know if the data for that exists, I'd be curious.

I'd also be curious that if the US ever adopted universal healthcare, what the wait times for appointments and surgeries would be with a country that has 340 million people with every single one insured. Right now in my city, wait times for my doctors that used to be 3-4 weeks 3 years ago are now 3 months. I have good doctors, so maybe that's it. I don't know if anyone else here has experienced the same with their doctors, but even that is too long for me and frustrating. I couldn't imagine what those wait times would be with universal healthcare. I called a few days ago to schedule an MRI(I need one every 3-4 years for a medical issue to make sure everything is good) and the scheduler said the earliest appointment they had for the place I wanted to go was into March.

 

[The Fartist]

I tend to revert to the old saying that the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, both guys were pieces of shit, no one won, so it's pointless to argue over who deserves the tallest tree or the tightest noose. I forgot where I got the last quote, I've always liked that one.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I'd also be curious that if the US ever adopted universal healthcare, what the wait times for appointments and surgeries would be with a country that has 340 million people with every single one insured. Right now in my city, wait times for my doctors that used to be 3-4 weeks 3 years ago are now 3 months. I have good doctors, so maybe that's it. I don't know if anyone else here has experienced the same with their doctors, but even that is too long for me and frustrating. I couldn't imagine what those wait times would be with universal healthcare. I called a few days ago to schedule an MRI(I need one every 3-4 years for a medical issue to make sure everything is good) and the scheduler said the earliest appointment they had for the place I wanted to go was into March.

Everything seemed to change after COVID with trying to get appointments.

Lot of turnover has occurred during a time where we needed MORE people not LESS, and then many who remain are pretty burnt out or disgruntled still after that whole experience. I think overall it was only like ~2% who outright quit, but it's all in the face of increased hospitalizations. I know not everyone thinks COVID is that serious, but people have to realize it's an ADDITIONAL thing stressing the system that didn't really exist before. We had ~30k people hospitalized in January of 2024 even, and a significant portion of those people wouldn't have been there at all if it weren't for the new disease going around.

Hell even at pharmacies things got worse, and are only now getting marginally better. Still feels like every time I go to the pharmacy half the people are new (and I go monthly.) I've been going to the same place for 16 years and for most of that pre-COVID it was the same staff aside from maybe 1-2 changes over time.. now I can barely remember anyone who worked there 6 months ago.

 

[Kraz]

I was reading something today where a large portion of money spent in the healthcare system are homeless and/or mentally ill people who are admitted and need treatment over and over again.

Where did you read this? Got a link? "large portion" with no context could mean anything, but seems to be used to blame on the homeless and mentally ill. Which seems questionable for a few reasons.

 

[DragoonKain]

Where did you read this? Got a link? "large portion" with no context could mean anything, but seems to be used to blame on the homeless and mentally ill. Which seems questionable for a few reasons.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Where did you read this? Got a link? "large portion" with no context could mean anything, but seems to be used to blame on the homeless and mentally ill. Which seems questionable for a few reasons.

Yeah I'd like to see the math on that.

They cost a lot more than the average person for certain things, namely ER visits and overall hospital stays, but they only represent around 1/5th of 1 percent of the US population. They also are being denied a lot of the more expensive care.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Not really a surprise.

It's no different than which people use up the most welfare/social assistance programs? It's going to be poor and unemployed people. And why are they in that situation? Good chance they got mental issues, or simply idiots, or jacked up sitting around all day doing nothing.

It's similar to all the manpower and money spent on cops, jails and prisons. Without even looking at any kind of statistic, most of it is going to be skewed to dumbass crooks and poorer people who commit more crime.

That's why people bring up things like the 80/20 rule.

 

[FullMetalx117]

All about how the data is presented. They got 1,515 “super utilizers” in their sample size, which area? How are they normalizing? And when they say “disproportionate”, what are they measuring?

100% of $1 is $2. It’s still $2. I can see them fudging this analysis using low numbers to up the percentage. Meanwhile the real gross dollars that is the actual problem is hidden somewhere else.

Is this study saying that homeless people/immigrants somehow contribute most of the trillion dollars spent on health care every year? Really?

 

[Pegasus Actual]

100% of $1 is $2.

100% of $1 is $1.

 

[FullMetalx117]

100% of $1 is $1.

Sorry in the gains mindset. Point still stands, a 100% gain may sounds impressive on %, proportions. But if on $1, it’s not significant (nor impressive) at all.

So if these guys are measuring on a tiny portion of the massive trillion industry, their analysis is misleading.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

Sorry in the gains mindset. Point still stands, a 100% gain may sounds impressive on %, proportions. But if on $1, it’s not significant (nor impressive) at all.

So if these guys are measuring on a tiny portion of the massive trillion industry, their analysis is misleading.

Okay, have fun: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5406260/

 

[IntentionalPun]

So with homeless people representing .2% of the population, if their costs are 8 times the average....

You can do the math, it's still not some massive chunk of overall costs, therefore it doesn't explain away why our healthcare costs so much,.

 

[ResilientBanana]

While I don’t think Luigi had all the answers to life’s mysteries, we do know that he was in an immense amount of pain due to his back surgery and he focused that pain at the state of healthcare and rightfully so. UHC has an above 30% denial rate and he was one of those people. UHC is the number 4 wealthiest company in the US. Just behind Walmart Amazon and Apple.

So while I don’t agree with his methods, he already inspired Athena BCBS to change their policy on anesthesia and rightfully so. Was it the right move? Probably not, but being silent didn’t help anything either.

Sometimes death blossoms into positive change and when your business is to save lives and your yearly body count due to denials is worse than that of a war, maybe it’s time to change their policy way you do shit. I know you can’t save everyone, but I’m sure you can save most of them.

CEOs stand as visionaries that achieve the boards demands and puts his managers into action to achieve those goals. Was he just doing what he was told? Yes, but generals in the military do similar things. Sometimes the general has got to go to better the lives of the people.

 

[Kraz]

So with homeless people representing .2% of the population, if their costs are 8 times the average....

You can do the math, it's still not some massive chunk of overall costs, therefore it doesn't explain away why our healthcare costs so much,.

Thank you for replying to twitter level understanding in the simplest terms diplomatically and constructively.

 

[diffusionx]

While I don’t think Luigi had all the answers to life’s mysteries, we do know that he was in an immense amount of pain due to his back surgery and he focused that pain at the state of healthcare and rightfully so. UHC has an above 30% denial rate and he was one of those people. UHC is the number 4 wealthiest company in the US. Just behind Walmart Amazon and Apple.

So while I don’t agree with his methods, he already inspired Athena BCBS to change their policy on anesthesia and rightfully so. Was it the right move? Probably not, but being silent didn’t help anything either.

Sometimes death blossoms into positive change and when your business is to save lives and your yearly body count due to denials is worse than that of a war, maybe it’s time to change their policy way you do shit. I know you can’t save everyone, but I’m sure you can save most of them.

CEOs stand as visionaries that achieve the boards demands and puts his managers into action to achieve those goals. Was he just doing what he was told? Yes, but generals in the military do similar things. Sometimes the general has got to go to better the lives of the people.

It's not their business to save lives. It's their business to administer health care payments to cover what is in reality a scarce resource, and a very expensive one with a basically infinite level of demand. This is just the basic reality of this.

And you know what, if his back was fucked, it's not UHC's fault. UHC didn't tell him to fuck up his back - actually they would rather he didn't, as that is hundreds more claims that goes through his system that they have to manage. And the thing that sucks about backs, is that if they are fucked, they are almost certainly not getting unfucked. That shit is for life. Similarly, the USA population is insanely unhealthy, obesity is out of control, tons of healthcare costs are obesity related, but it's not like the insurance companies can deny claims because people are fat pigs that can't stop eating. They can't deny people get treatment for lung cancer because they smoked for 30 years. They have to manage the situation.

 

[saintjules]