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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 4 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Ionian
Member
Renly had the stronger army.
Of course, but when there are three other legal Baratheons in line for the throne, birth order is less relevant.
I don't understand why Stannis couldn't kill Renly after he took the throne. The Stormlander-Reach army could have easily destroyed Joffrey's loyalists.
I actually enjoyed the monologue but I was also thinking: " you people are trying too hard, you are no GRRM so just stick to his material while you still have it as a guide".
Enosh
Member
there is always one legal baratheon
Stannis just said that the first one in line isn't actually a baratheon and thus has no claim, leaving the only legal king Stannis
Renly was never in any way shape or form the lawful heir while Stannis was alive
Once Renly's in King's Landing, even if he kills him, how is he supposed to dislodge the Tyrells from power? They probably would've refused to hand things over to Stannis.
CitizenVectron
Member
Right, but he had no claim to the throne. It was Stannis' by right, which means due to his sense of honour he had to seek it.
Had.
![aKWnfN5.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/aKWnfN5.jpg])
There is one rightful heir to Robert's throne and it's Stannis. And from my understanding he didn't really understand what was going to happen to Renly anyway. He sailed to meet with him and offered him peace terms, the rest was Melisandre's work.
It's funny how the one thing Mel does on her own in the books D&D attributed to Stannis. It's like they used a wiki to read his chapters or something.
Oh snap, you're right! I could've sworn she said 14, but I just watched it again and she does indeed say 13.
I don't. She's been brought up a few times, including when Tywin tells Tyrion "it's high time you were married" last season.. and he responds that he was married before, or something to that effect. It's a huge point of aggression between the two characters, so I doubt it is cut.
elrechazado
Banned
Birth order is everything, did you miss the entire series so far?
And stannis didn't have the storm lander reach army until he killed renly. He had 5000 soldiers without them.
While the last episode was good, you can see where they cut corners and how the scale doesn't really compare to the book's battle at all if put under scrutiny (though, considering it's TV & the budget isn't limitless, there's no reason to do that). We saw, like, a total of 2 giants & 1 mammoth actually doing anything and a few groups of, like, 7 people running towards the wall. The southern wildling attack felt more of the scale that it was in the books, while the 100,000 wildlings in the north felt more like maybe a few thousand people at best, if you start to nitpick. Though, I repeat, it's TV so I don't really mind that it doesn't reach some LOTR level epicness. Just pointing out that Amir0x was at least half-right.
He had no duty. Legally, Cersei's children are Baratheons. Stannis made the choice to wage a war for the sole purpose of making him a king. He murdered his own brother to make his grab for power less difficult.
What claim did Bobby B have? Birth order is an imaginary concept that means absolutely fucking nothing. All that matters is who has the most power, and who will be accepted as king. Mace Tyrell has the power to murder Tommen and declare himself king, but he doesn't have the power to defend against the rebellion that would surely ensue.
Might makes right, which is all it boils down to in the end. Duty and honor be damned.
CitizenVectron
Member
Force. And Renly could claim that as well. But within the system, Stannis had the claim. And since Stannis' entire belief system was about honour in following the traditions of Westeros and the noble houses, he was forced into making a play for the throne.
elrechazado
Banned
Sometimes I feel like you haven't read the books very carefully.
Besides, you are once again completely all over the map. How do you say legally they are baratheons then turn around and say birth order means nothing? Which is it?
Some of the best subtext in ASOIAF is that there is hardly any difference between the Dothraki and the Westerosi. The Westerosi claim civility, but it's all just a big charade. Much like the Dothraki, Westerosi lords prosper because they're powerful, not because they have a certain claim. Similarly, the Dothraki aren't any more violent than the Westerosi. Violence is just a more visible part of their culture.
The Dothraki don't always follow the children of former leaders. They follow strong leaders who are good at killing people. This seems barbaric, but is identical to what happened during Robert's Rebellion and every other rebellion, from Balon Greyjoy to Renly Baratheon.
It's said that a Dothraki wedding without somebody dying is a dull affair. But are Westerosi weddings any more peaceful?
The Westerosi seem less brutal than the Dothraki at first glance, but that all falls apart when you look past the surface.
Because Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are legally considered Baratheons, this is the line of succession:
Robert -> Joffrey -> Tommen -> Myrcella -> Stannis -> Shireen -> Renly
Stannis is fourth in line for the throne. Renly is sixth. Neither of them have very strong claims, as by law Cersei's children are trueborn Baratheons.
The Dothraki don't always follow the children of former leaders. They follow strong leaders who are good at killing people. This seems barbaric, but is identical to what happened during Robert's Rebellion and every other rebellion, from Balon Greyjoy to Renly Baratheon.
It's said that a Dothraki wedding without somebody dying is a dull affair. But are Westerosi weddings any more peaceful?
The Westerosi seem less brutal than the Dothraki at first glance, but that all falls apart when you look past the surface.
Because Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are legally considered Baratheons, this is the line of succession:
Robert -> Joffrey -> Tommen -> Myrcella -> Stannis -> Shireen -> Renly
Stannis is fourth in line for the throne. Renly is sixth. Neither of them have very strong claims, as by law Cersei's children are trueborn Baratheons.
Allying himself with his brother and all his forces, and then killing him after he took the throne with shadow babies would be easier. Allying himself with Robb and killing him with shadow babies after their common enemies had perished would have been easier. Allying himself with Balon Greyjoy and then killing him with shadow babies afterwards would have been easier. Sending his armies in while he lead from the back would have been easier and less risky at Blackwater, yet he didn't.
Stannis clearly believes in duty over all, and wouldn't even pretend to acknowledge the claims of others to the degree that it would aid his power play. Whatever you dislike about the man, he clearly believes he must rule because his claim is just, not out of ambition for power. Hell, nothing we've even seen of him suggests he even enjoys rule; it seems more like a burden he believes he must shoulder.
At least in the books that is.
Honestly, Renly kind of screwed it up for everyone. He should of known the two factors he appealed to- Eddard and Stannis- were going to be stubborn as hell in their pursuit of duty. Had he not declared himself king for who knows what reason, the North, Baratheons, the Tyrells might have all ended up together. Why he thought he should burn bridges between the other major two parties that were already against the Lannisters for a claim that was obviously invalid, no matter which side of the incest story you believed, is beyond me. Incredibly stupid ambition.
Stannis doesn't consider them Baratheons because they aren't?
elrechazado
Banned
It's kind of weird like you don't read your own posts, because you just wrote this after your post about how birth order means nothing. Hence my earlier comments.
...uuuhhhhh, argue with self much?
It's not a law that determines whether someone is trueborn, its whether they were born to a married couple. Stannis has sold evidence that that isn't the case with Cersei's children. Thus, he is Robert's heir. The concept that a person's (supposed) trueborn status can be lost through the introduction of evidence to the contrary is not one that Stannis (or GRRM) made up.
I don't get the sense that people followed Robert because they perceived him to be strong. The Mad King truly was a unifying force- far more so than Robert even; he broke the unwritten pact between a king and his people and, in doing so, destroyed he and his family's claim to the throne. Had Aerys not committed the atrocities he did nor Rhaegar not kidnapped Lyanna, there wouldn't have been a rebellion. Hell, Robert didn't even want to rule; he's said as much himself.
I mean, sure, people only backed him once they had a sense he could win- to varying degrees (especially Tywin)- but it's not like it was some barbaric world where people just sat around waiting for the next big leader to rise up and overthrow the previous. There was a very real sense of a moral crusade to his rebellion.
I mean, sure, people only backed him once they had a sense he could win- to varying degrees (especially Tywin)- but it's not like it was some barbaric world where people just sat around waiting for the next big leader to rise up and overthrow the previous. There was a very real sense of a moral crusade to his rebellion.
Birth order means nothing because Stannis is very far behind in the birth order. As Cersei's children are legally Robert's, he has a claim just as weak as Renly's.
Robert had absolutely no claim to be king. They claim succession through Aerys' great-aunt, which is a claim far weaker than Renly's. Robert could have forced Aerys to abdicate to Rhaegar or Vierserys or Daenerys, or he could have killed Aerys and supported his heir, but he chose not to. Robert Baratheon declared himself king, and because of his strength, many lords supported him.
elrechazado
Banned
and at the end of the rebellion there was no clear mandate. Many comments throughout the serried that Ned or tywin or Jamie or Robert all could have seized the throne and there would have likely been civil war. Robert as king was not necessarily a fait acomplit. It was a rebellion against the targs, not necessarily for Robert.
Wut. Read your own post again for the opposite point....
harriet the spy
Member
The whole issue was that Cersei's children were not Robert's and hence were not Baratheon.
I don't think what the 'law' recognizes (and it's not like there really is a supreme court to 'legally' recognize cersei's kids as baratheon) is what Stannis cared about. He cares about lineage. Hence Stannis believing it's his job to rule the country.
Had joffrey been ten times the dick he was and running the country into the ground, but widely believed to be a baratheon, stannis would have served him begrudgingly.
The problem is that, by legality, Cersei's children are Baratheons. They weren't fathered by Robert, but they are still considered members of House Baratheon. Joffrey added a fucking lion to his crest, but according to law they are Baratheons. Unless they are proven to be bastards by Jaime, they will be Baratheons.
You aren't paying attention. Stannis' claim is only marginally stronger than Renly's, and far weaker than Joffrey's or Myrcella's. Cersei's children are accepted as legitimate Baratheons by the lords of the Reach, Crownlands, Stormlands, and Westerlands. Thus, Stannis has not much of a real claim. He views himself as his heir, but only he and his supporters do so.
You aren't paying attention. Stannis' claim is only marginally stronger than Renly's, and far weaker than Joffrey's or Myrcella's. Cersei's children are accepted as legitimate Baratheons by the lords of the Reach, Crownlands, Stormlands, and Westerlands. Thus, Stannis has not much of a real claim. He views himself as his heir, but only he and his supporters do so.
For anyone looking for something to read while waiting the next seven years for book 6 of ASOIAF, I just found out earlier today that Conn Iggulden is tackling the War of the Roses (and the historical inspiration for the Starks and Lannisters - the Yorks and Lancasters) in his next historical fiction series that's coming out in early July. I know that Iggulden takes a lot of liberties with historical accuracy in the name of a more gripping narrative, but overall I found his Emperor series and Mongols series enjoyable reads. He also goes through in an appendix the changes he made and why he made those changes - something I found interesting for a historical fiction author to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npGu0-Zu9Rg
Didn't realize books were getting teasers now either lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npGu0-Zu9Rg
Didn't realize books were getting teasers now either lol.
elrechazado
Banned
Still not reading your own posts.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Book teasers always weird me out.
I've read some of his stuff, will definitely check this out.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
It's good, but best? Mine (character names instead of actors to save time):
1. Tyrion
2. Cersei
3. Hound
3. Theon
4. Tywin
5. Ned
6. Sansa
7. Jamie
8. Brienne
9. Oberyn
10. Varys
11. Old lady Tyrell
Can't tell if great or awful: Joffrey, Littlefinger, Catelyn, Dany
Hoping for a big moment: Jorah, Margery
Worst: John Snow, Bran, Osha
Special props to Stannis, Ramsay, Daavos
No comment: Ros
1. Tyrion
2. Cersei
3. Hound
3. Theon
4. Tywin
5. Ned
6. Sansa
7. Jamie
8. Brienne
9. Oberyn
10. Varys
11. Old lady Tyrell
Can't tell if great or awful: Joffrey, Littlefinger, Catelyn, Dany
Hoping for a big moment: Jorah, Margery
Worst: John Snow, Bran, Osha
Special props to Stannis, Ramsay, Daavos
No comment: Ros
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
I thought her acting on the stand had a few layers to it (was it betrayal? Was she paid off? Is she in fear for her life?) but yeah. Just kinda porn actressy.
I don't think anyone in there right minds thought they were going to do a 1:1 adaption of the book battle. But I can see how someone from 2010 would be extremely skeptical lol just though it was a very ironic post.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
He was right though...
It's just because they describe him as the book does, and he embodies those characteristics perfectly.
Drunken, jolly, gets his way by force, screws anything that moves, yet a lot of pain in his eyes.
Addy is perfect.
They probably just told him to think about every other character he's played over the last 20 years.
Steelyuhas
Member
Except Troy
Odysseus was a badass!
-------
Random Sean Bean IMDB scoping: He's set to star in a Caesar film which also has no less than four other GoT cast members attached (Indira Varma, Isaac Hempstead Wright, Mackenzie Crook, and John Bradley).
Odysseus was a badass!
-------
Random Sean Bean IMDB scoping: He's set to star in a Caesar film which also has no less than four other GoT cast members attached (Indira Varma, Isaac Hempstead Wright, Mackenzie Crook, and John Bradley).
There was Cleanskin. He cuts an old woman's wrist at the end of it. >_>
I didn't think Tormund was that bad. I loved Styr and how monstrously psychotic he seemed.
At least you aren't hating on Snow. It's basically just an action hero performance. He's doing fine.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Top 5 Best Acting
1. Olenna
2. Joffrey
3. Tyrion
4. Oberyn
5. Cersei
Top 5 Worst Acting
1. Jon
2. Daenerys
3. Brienne
4. Ygritte
5. Robb
1. Olenna
2. Joffrey
3. Tyrion
4. Oberyn
5. Cersei
Top 5 Worst Acting
1. Jon
2. Daenerys
3. Brienne
4. Ygritte
5. Robb
How the hell did Robb make this list but not Shae?
Loved that dude.
Steelyuhas
Member
Obviously each their own, but Richard Madden made Robb jump off the screen in a way he didn't in the book for me.
Ratsky's not the first I've seen pool Richard Madden into a performance they didn't like, but it's the opposite for me. One of my favorites.
Ratsky's not the first I've seen pool Richard Madden into a performance they didn't like, but it's the opposite for me. One of my favorites.
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