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[gutshot]

Is there any way to personally contact this Martin guy and tell him to hurry it up?

I read all the books in December 2013 figuring the next one would be out soon...a year later and not even a release date.

grrm@georgerrmartin.com

That was the email address he had posted on his old website for the longest time. He said that he read all the emails he received there and he often would respond to them as well. That was back before the show though, no idea if he still keeps up with it now.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Stannis is next in line of they both die. GRRM has made it clear that conquest can be more important than heredity, but it's possible he could take the throne peacefully.

King James of Scotland was not best friends with the English people when he inherited their kingdom peacefully.

Personally, I love the idea of Danaerys inheriting dynastically. She's actually next in line after Stannis and Shireen. While I love both of those Baratheons, I can't see either of them surviving TWOW.

True but given his religion I don't believe Stannis could possibly be crowned by the Faith. Hence a conquest situation taking place, likely leading to a Tyrell queen. Stannis is the rightful heir no doubt, I just don't see how he can become king.

With respect to TWOW, unfortunately I agree Stannis will likely die. I think it'll happen after he defeats the Freys outside of Winterfell and then takes the castle. I like the idea of Stannis winning the north only to watch the Northmen abandon him when his most trusted adviser (Davos) shows up with Rickon. Then Stannis returns to the Wall to learn his daughter has been sacrificed to revive Jon/wake dragons from stone. Enraged, he kills his wife, journeys north of the Wall, and becomes the Night's King.

 

[Ogimachi]

Edric Storm is an illegitimate bastard. He has no more legal right to the throne than Moon Boy.

Wrong. He's illegitimate, yes, but bastards do inherit when there are no legitimate children left. If a house's male line dies out, the heir must be found in the female line, which is why Harry Hardyng is the heir to the Eyrie.
What you're saying is that if the legitimate Baratheon heir from the male line are gone, the entire house loses its claim to the throne and the previous dynasty gets it back. There's no such thing.

 

[Sickboy007]

Wrong. He's illegitimate, yes, but bastards do inherit when there are no legitimate children left. If a house's male line dies out, the heir must be found in the female line, which is why Harry Hardyng is the heir to the Eyrie.
What you're saying is that if the legitimate Baratheon heir from the male line are gone, the entire house loses its claim to the throne and the previous dynasty gets it back. There's no such thing.

Harry Hardyng is of noble birth. Bastards can't inherit unless they're legitimised, that's the whole point of bastardy.

 

[Faddy]

As regards succession if we exclude Stannis and his heirs and Tommen and Myrcella there isn't enough information to know who would be the rightful ruler.


Taking into account only mentioned characters from the asoiaf wiki

There are literally no other Baratheons so you need to go backward through the male line until you get to someone that had a daughter and then follow that line. Jocelyn Baratheon who was the mother of Rhaenys Targaryen.

Rhaenys Targaryen had a son and daughter. The son has no living heirs (as far as we know) The daughter has heirs that are knowing to be living to this day who were head of House Velaryon. So assuming House Velaryon hasn't been usurped the current heir was Lord Monford Velaryon until he died as a bannerman of Stannis at the Blackwater leaving his son Monterys Velaryon to be the fourth in line without excluding anyone.


Tommen
Myrcella
Stannis
Shireen
Monterys Velaryon

Of course there could be other Baratheon

 

[Ogimachi]

Harry Hardyng is of noble birth. Bastards can't inherit unless they're legitimised, that's the whole point of bastardy.

No. Legitimized bastards are treated as trueborn children, which puts them in the line of succession according to birth order, not at the end after every truebon heir.
For instance, Rolland Storm is Lord Caron's only heir, which is why he inherits Nightsong without having to be legitimized.

My point about Harry was that he's the Arryn heir because he's the next in the female line. According to the reasoning I was arguing against, the heir would've been the head of the house that ruled the Vale before the Arryns, which makes no sense at all.

 

[Valhelm]

I do think that Stannis will, against all the odds, survive in all the books. I mean, that's his character's running theme: He's the unlikeable underdog that ends up resisting in extremely adverse circumstances. That being said, I don't think that he will ever sit on the Iron Throne. Too much duty-bound, me thinks.

The problem with this wishful thinking is that four books have been setting up Stannis to "break before he bends". Melisandre's impending abandonment and Dany's dream of a blue king with a sword of fire don't bode well for the Mannis.

 

[Chris R]

Watching The Wire since I've never seen it before and HBO aired the entire thing over the holiday break.

It took me like 3 scenes to finally pin him, but young Littlefinger blew my mind when I finally put two and two together.

 

[Basileus777]

No. Legitimized bastards are treated as trueborn children, which puts them in the line of succession according to birth order, not at the end after every truebon heir.

This isn't clear. Like in the real world, such a situation isn't spelled out in hard law, it comes down to who can enforce their claim.

Wrong. He's illegitimate, yes, but bastards do inherit when there are no legitimate children left.

This really isn't as clear cut as you are claiming.

 

[Snuggles]

The problem with this wishful thinking is that four books have been setting up Stannis to "break before he bends". Melisandre's impending abandonment and Dany's dream of a blue king with a sword of fire don't bode well for the Mannis.

I think Stannis will eventually realize that claiming the Iron Throne isn't that big of a deal, and retire to a peaceful life with his family in the countryside.

 

[Valhelm]

Wrong. He's illegitimate, yes, but bastards do inherit when there are no legitimate children left. If a house's male line dies out, the heir must be found in the female line, which is why Harry Hardyng is the heir to the Eyrie.
What you're saying is that if the legitimate Baratheon heir from the male line are gone, the entire house loses its claim to the throne and the previous dynasty gets it back. There's no such thing.

If that was the case, why did Ramsay need to be legitimized?

 

[bengraven]

I think Stannis will die either in TWOW or ADOS. He's going to break before he bends.

Yeah, Stannis is kind of disposable. He's just another obstacle in the main story of either Dany vs. Westeros or Others vs. Westeros.

 

[Ogimachi]

This isn't clear. Like in the real world, such a situation isn't spelled out in hard law, it comes down to who can enforce their claim.


This really isn't as clear cut as you are claiming.

It's not clear cut, but it's what we know about Westerosi law, and it comes from GRRM himself.
Still, the idea that a previous dynasty inherits the throne because the trueborn heirs of the male line are gone is absurd. Daenerys could never inherit the throne from the Baratheons. No matter how many legitimate and illegitimate Baratheons die, Daenerys is not in the line of succession at all.

If that was the case, why did Ramsay need to be legitimized?

Being Roose's only child, he didn't need to be legitimized to inherit the Dreadfort.
He was legitimized for several reasons. Not only it removes the stigma of being a bastard, it makes things a lot easier for him to be awarded Winterfell and marry "Arya", and it also prevents a fight over Bolton succession, for members of the female line could challenge his claims.
By becoming a legitimate Bolton through royal decree, he prevents any kind of dispute over his rights as Roose's heir.

 

[Turin]

I think Stannis will die either in TWOW or ADOS. He's going to break before he bends.

I think it's pretty much a certainty that he'll die. Before that I think we might see him become different...... In that sense he would be "breaking".

 

[Ogimachi]

I think it's pretty much a certainty that he'll die. Before that I think we might see him become different...... In that sense he would be "breaking".

Oh, he will. Jon is the main character, TPTWP, etc. They also happen to get along and it'd be anticlimatic and pointless to have them fight each other so late in the series.

GRRM is inspired by both real history and great fantasy works, in which countless kings died in battle. Tolkien's works have plenty of that, but not one king in ASOIAF has died in battle.
Robert, Joffrey, Balon, Renly and Robb were poisoned/murdered. Stannis is currently the strongest candidate for an epic death in battle, fighting the true enemy he was always meant to defeat.

 

[dLMN8R]

I'm taking a chance in this thread since I've only read the first book

After reading the first book, and hearing some stuff about season 5, have the producers of the show ever described why they changed the dothraki interactions in season 1, and the Cersei/Jaime reunion in season 5?

I just re-watched the first two episodes of season 1 immediately after finishing the first book, and was pretty disgusted and confused with how they changed the first interactions between Drogo and Daenerys. In the book those first interactions immediately show Drogo's more humane side while in the show they kept him a savage brute for way too long. What was the point of making that first night rape instead of consensual?

Same question for Cersei and Jaime.

 

[kirblar]

I'm taking a chance in this thread since I've only read the first book

After reading the first book, and hearing some stuff about season 5, have the producers of the show ever described why they changed the dothraki interactions in season 1, and the Cersei/Jaime reunion in season 5?

I just re-watched the first two episodes of season 1 immediately after finishing the first book, and was pretty disgusted and confused with how they changed the first interactions between Drogo and Daenerys. In the book those first interactions immediately show Drogo's more humane side while in the show they kept him a savage brute for way too long. What was the point of making that first night rape instead of consensual?

Same question for Cersei and Jaime.

To Drogo/Dany, it's not rape. By our standards, it is. The dissonance there worked for me, and it worked with Dany's narrative path through the season (going from someone w/ no agency to someone in complete control.)

Cersei/Jaime was just a case of completely botching what they were trying to do (make it vague/uncomfortable scene) into something that was just a random rape scene in the middle of Jaime's redemption arc.

 

[dLMN8R]

Really? I thought the tone of Dany/Drogo in the book was completely different from the TV show. In the book Drogo went slowly, asking for consent with every move. He was pretty gentle compared to his public self. In the TV show he just threw her around like a piece of meet.

 

[Iksenpets]

Really? I thought the tone of Dany/Drogo in the book was completely different from the TV show. In the book Drogo went slowly, asking for consent with every move. He was pretty gentle compared to his public self. In the TV show he just threw her around like a piece of meet.

I vaguely remember in the season 1 DVD commentaries, they mention that the actors actually suggested that change since they didn't find the scene believable as consensual. On the whole, the show tends to take a more modern outlook on things. Dang in the book as a medieval girl who sees a man who has made the necessary deals to marry her as having a right to her body. From a more modern outlook, that seems crazy, and the show plays it that was and tries to humanize Drogo more lady.

The Jaime/Cersei scene was just incredibly poorly directed. The director apparently felt that Cersei's body language implied consent.

 

[Marz]

I never really saw the Jamie/Cersei scene as a rape.

 

[higgsboson1997]

Honestly I'm glad that HBO could give a fuck less and will continue the show no matter what.

I think i like the show better anyways

Me too.

It took away some of the excessive bloat from the books and just has an overall great production value. At the moment, it's a little better. However, for me, it will become undoubtedly better if it's able to maintain its quality in Season 5, which is the point at which the quality of the books started to decrease.

I honestly want HBO to finish it now.

 

[Loke13]

True but given his religion I don't believe Stannis could possibly be crowned by the Faith. Hence a conquest situation taking place, likely leading to a Tyrell queen. Stannis is the rightful heir no doubt, I just don't see how he can become king.

With respect to TWOW, unfortunately I agree Stannis will likely die. I think it'll happen after he defeats the Freys outside of Winterfell and then takes the castle. I like the idea of Stannis winning the north only to watch the Northmen abandon him when his most trusted adviser (Davos) shows up with Rickon. Then Stannis returns to the Wall to learn his daughter has been sacrificed to revive Jon/wake dragons from stone. Enraged, he kills his wife, journeys north of the Wall, and becomes the Night's King.

Holy shit that would be amazing.

 

[Turin]

^ That would be one scenario......

Oh, he will. Jon is the main character, TPTWP, etc. They also happen to get along and it'd be anticlimatic and pointless to have them fight each other so late in the series.

GRRM is inspired by both real history and great fantasy works, in which countless kings died in battle. Tolkien's works have plenty of that, but not one king in ASOIAF has died in battle.
Robert, Joffrey, Balon, Renly and Robb were poisoned/murdered. Stannis is currently the strongest candidate for an epic death in battle, fighting the true enemy he was always meant to defeat.

I'd love to see him go out in battle but I'm just not sure at all what GRRM's end game with Stannis is. There's a lot of different directions he could take.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I never really saw the Jamie/Cersei scene as a rape.

A woman struggling to get away and saying "no, no, no" over and over without even a dubious "...fine, ok" isn't rape, to some people.

 

[Turin]

A woman struggling to get away and saying "no, no, no" over and over without even a dubious "...fine, ok" isn't rape, to some people.

I find it a little disturbing how many people think that scene was just "natural" between a man and woman.

I don't want to resurrect a dead horse though.....

 

[Kain]

You heretics, the Mannis will reign for sure

Spoiler

only for five minutes before Dany comes with a dragon burning everything because George is a troll.

Him becoming the Night's King would be awesome too. Maybe he could reenact the Firebringer origin story in a dark way by plunging the sword into Mel's heart and call it Nightbringer. Or Deathbringer. Or Coldbringer. Oh man that's cool.

 

[Ratrat]

I never really saw the Jamie/Cersei scene as a rape.

Kind of a creepy opinion.

I wonder if Season 5 will have that scene with Asha and Qarl.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Kind of a creepy opinion.

I wonder if Season 5 will have that scene with Asha and Qarl.

Hard to say. It's a sex scene, so of course it'll be in. But it's actually in the books, so of course it won't be in!

 

[Marz]

A woman struggling to get away and saying "no, no, no" over and over without even a dubious "...fine, ok" isn't rape, to some people.

She's clearly kissing him as she's saying no.

 

[Jigorath]

I never really saw the Jamie/Cersei scene as a rape.

It was rape. If it wasn't intended to be rape then it was extremely poorly directed but that's how almost everyone read the scene.

 

[Kinokou]

She's clearly kissing him as she's saying no.

Kissing is not the same as consenting to sex. To make it way to personal I have been in situations where I have said no to sex but been fine with continue the kissing.

I know the general rule is "show don't tell" but here it is pretty clear that the writers and director should have gone for the tell approach if they really wanted to make it into a consensual scene. When so many men and women found the scene to be a rape it shows that they failed in what they were trying to convey.

 

[Blue Ninja]

I didn't see it as rape, because I knew it wasn't rape in the books.

That said, I realized they screwed up the scene pretty quickly, though.

 

[WaffleTaco]

I was looking forward to that scene in season 4 for the creepiness of it, but them fucking it up so badly made me start questioning their judgement for the show.

 

[Showaddy]

I didn't see it as rape, because I knew it wasn't rape in the books.

That said, I realized they screwed up the scene pretty quickly, though.

Yeah kinda clear they fucked that scene up, although it does improve slightly in retrospect with their end of season scene in the White Sword Tower.

 

[Patriots7]

It's not clear cut, but it's what we know about Westerosi law, and it comes from GRRM himself.
Still, the idea that a previous dynasty inherits the throne because the trueborn heirs of the male line are gone is absurd. Daenerys could never inherit the throne from the Baratheons. No matter how many legitimate and illegitimate Baratheons die, Daenerys is not in the line of succession at all.

Didn't Robert become king because he had the strongest claim due to his mother (or grandmother) being a Targaryen? So at some point, assuming no male heirs, Dany would be in line.

 

[Iksenpets]

Kind of a creepy opinion.

I wonder if Season 5 will have that scene with Asha and Qarl.

Doubt they'd bother giving her scenes on her own, let alone introducing a boyfriend character for her. Maybe if the Asha-us-pregnant theories end up being correct and are super important to the endgame, they'll give her a random sex scene with some already established character that will be completely out of character for both of them. Asha and Davos will just be overcome by lust one day after a highly erotic conversation about boats or something.

 

[Kinokou]

Doubt they'd bother giving her scenes on her own, let alone introducing a boyfriend character for her. Maybe if the Asha-us-pregnant theories end up being correct and are super important to the endgame, they'll give her a random sex scene with some already established character that will be completely out of character for both of them. Asha and Davos will just be overcome by lust one day after a highly erotic conversation about boats or something.

You made me laugh.

 

[Joni]

Didn't Robert become king because he had the strongest claim due to his mother (or grandmother) being a Targaryen? So at some point, assuming no male heirs, Dany would be in line.

The Targ connection was used to validate the Baratheon claim, but he would have become a king regardless.

 

[Marz]

Robert became king because he slew Rhaegar himself and had all of the north and the stormlands behind him.

 

[Loke13]

I find it a little disturbing how many people think that scene was just "natural" between a man and woman.

I don't want to resurrect a dead horse though.....

Holy shit this is an awesome piece of art. Loving the DOFP call back.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Holy shit this is an awesome piece of art. Loving the DOFP call back.

I was wondering why this looked familiar! Thanks =)

 

[Cornballer]

- Watchers: Young Cersei cast

 

[dubq]

Holy shit I want a print of this!

 

[pulga]

- Watchers: Young Cersei cast

Of all the flashbacks they could've chosen...they go with this one?

D&D

 

[dubq]

Of all the flashbacks they could've chosen...they go with this one?

D&D

It's probably a dream sequence..

 

[PhoenixDark]

I like that flashback. I understand people dislike it for seemingly adding on material/semi retcon or whatever, but the atmosphere of the scene always was cool to me. Besides Cersei's hate of Tyrion in the first 2.5 books is so outrageous that it makes sense.

 

[Basileus777]

It's probably a dream sequence..

It doesn't matter what it is, if it has Maggie the Frog in it its going to be terrible.

 

[dubq]

It doesn't matter what it is, if it has Maggie the Frog in it its going to be terrible.

Disagree.

 

[Dysun]

Maggy the Frog is something I wouldn't have minded getting the axe.

 

[Loke13]

I like that flashback. I understand people dislike it for seemingly adding on material/semi retcon or whatever, but the atmosphere of the scene always was cool to me. Besides Cersei's hate of Tyrion in the first 2.5 books is so outrageous that it makes sense.

Yeah I don't get the hate for the whole maggie the frog section it doesn't diminish Cersei's character in my opinion.