This kind of thing happens with manga fairly often so I'm fortunate enough to have been mentally prepared for this eventuality.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 Offseason Thread
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
- Start date
- Status
This kind of thing happens with manga fairly often so I'm fortunate enough to have been mentally prepared for this eventuality.
Why? Especailly when you have things like Dragons, giants, forest people already included in a fantasy show? Especailly when said prophecies are already in the source material.
True that's probably it. Although now that I think about it it's not like the show doesn't do prophecies Dany's visions in the HOTUD and Mels visions about Arya certainly qualify but they're vague enough for the show work with. Maggy the frog seems to be the first explicit prophecy we're getting.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Is there a list of all the theories people have had throughout the years? Pre-ACOK, Pre-ASOS, etc. theories and the like?
haha
I don't feel betrayed, that's silly. I am disappointed I'll have the ending that has been built up over years upon years now spoiled through an inferior product that will discard any nuance the book ending may have. It's not a huge deal. I'll still enjoy the journey there in the books, but it is disappointing to me.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I wouldn't call it "betrayal." That's a harsh word that suggests some deliberate act of malice or disregard. I think he was done in by hubris and a lack of self control. AFFC/ADWD were going to take a long time, I get that and don't think we can re-write that period of history or harp about what he "should" have done instead. What came afterward is another story. After finishing ADWD, Martin signed onto multiple deals and projects in a gust of optimism. I think that's where the hubris came in. He wanted to capitalize on his new fame, and bask in the positive reaction ADWD received (from the press). It was a victory lap, basically. I understand taking a victory lap after completing such a difficult book, but Martin took his eye completely off of his job. And now here we are in 2015 with no book.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Martin should have immediately started writing TWOW after completing ADWD. But he spent two years doing nonstop events, editing anthologies, greenlighting projects, writing hundreds of pages of a book he doesn't plan on releasing anytime soon (the Targaryen history book), etc. That's solely on him. Now his magnum opus will be spoiled by a sup par television show.
I'd imagine our disappointment doesn't come close to his. He has to know he fucked up.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Martin should have immediately started writing TWOW after completing ADWD. But he spent two years doing nonstop events, editing anthologies, greenlighting projects, writing hundreds of pages of a book he doesn't plan on releasing anytime soon (the Targaryen history book), etc. That's solely on him. Now his magnum opus will be spoiled by a sup par television show.
I'd imagine our disappointment doesn't come close to his. He has to know he fucked up.
badcrumble
Member
They kinda did it with Mirri Maz Duur.
And eh, bookreaders got to have a lot of fun with knowing stuff like the Red Wedding was coming and teasing people who hadn't read the book about that stuff. Now it's kinda turned around back on us. Fair play.
dead souls
Member
Eh, after ADWD I don't see why anyone has any faith left in Martin at all.
Oh, please. ADWD wasn't the best-plotted of Martin's work, but had some wonderful plot elements and easily the best prose of the series.
Martin probably knew this was an eventuality when he signed over the license to HBO, but the potential fame and acclaim in his series was far too great to pass up. No shame in that
The stuff in the North is some of the best work Martin has ever written, it's a good book
The stuff in the North is some of the best work Martin has ever written, it's a good book
Considering how much GRRM cares about the series (fanfiction hate, constant rewrites, scrapped timeskip, years and years of writing to get it "perfect") it must hurt him more than fans honestly. I personally don't feel betrayed, it was bound to happen. My hopes for seeing a completed ASOIAF in book version are lower and lower everyday. I'll take what I can get (and probably bitch about it)
Now, cutting what is basically the ending of the book after the long wait and knowing that the sequel wouldn't come out for years...THAT was a shitty move by GRRM. I'm still bitter about that. Still waiting for my ADWD Ending DLC.
Now, cutting what is basically the ending of the book after the long wait and knowing that the sequel wouldn't come out for years...THAT was a shitty move by GRRM. I'm still bitter about that. Still waiting for my ADWD Ending DLC.
Steelyuhas
Member
Dance has some of the best stuff in ASOIAF, but as a whole I thought the book was pretty messy and arguably more importantly as book 5 out of 7 it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the series coming to an end in the next couple books/happening in this century.
Yeah, Dance is weird. The North is some of the best stuff he's done, while Tyrion is some of the worst. And the structure of the thing is a mess. It's not a cohesive book in any way, even less so than Feast was, and it has a crazy gap between high and low.
Also, just saw this on Watchers. Danish actress cast for a female wildling role that is not Val. I've never seen Borgen, but I hear it's great. It gives me some degree of hope to still see new casting coming out now.
http://watchersonthewall.com/borgen-actress-joins-the-cast-of-game-of-thrones/
Steelyuhas
Member
I just saw that 30 second promo Watchers referred to before this week's ep of GIrls on HBOGO.
Along with the shot of that actress playing a Wildling, there is brief new footage of Dany entering the room where she locked the dragons at the end of last season. She seems to be pretty frightened.
Along with the shot of that actress playing a Wildling, there is brief new footage of Dany entering the room where she locked the dragons at the end of last season. She seems to be pretty frightened.
Looks like from the script leak:
Where she goes to see the dragons after Daario and Hizdahr return, and they lash out at her.
Also the shot of Dorne in that promo is incredible.
Basileus777
Member
You could say that about AFFC's prose, but ADWD had some rough writing in parts. As a whole it's the worst written book in the series.
And you're kind of missing the point. The prose isn't why one would lose faith in GRRM after that book anyway.
I liked ADWD and thought it was one of the best books...
PhoenixDark
Banned
Is there a list of all the theories people have had throughout the years? Pre-ACOK, Pre-ASOS, etc. theories and the like?
haha
here are some from the series in general. I'll have to find some more ADWD specific ones later
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1oip2y/spoilers_all_the_grand_rasoiaf_fan_theory/
I don't really care if the show goes ahead of the book. It would bother me if the books never finish and the only ending out there is D&D's warped vision. No offense to them, they're talented guys and I'm happy they made the show but I need the real ending. So umm, try not to die George.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Thank you, ser Phoenix.
Basileus777
Member
They are all post ADWD theories because ASOIAF reddit wasn't thing until after that book was released. You'd have to go crawling through archives of the old Westeros EZBoard for old theories.
I think I saw something where someone basically did that once. There was nothing super crazy, since the fandom wasn't in full-on conspiracy-mongering mode yet. It was mostly your run-of-the-mill "I think Robb will win!" or "I bet Robb and Dany will team up when she arrives next book!" or other tragic misconceptions like that.
Basileus777
Member
Crackpot theories were always there, no one just took them seriously, unlike the madness you see on Reddit today. You did have more serious elaborate theories like the Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory that was debunked by ASOS.
Is it any worse than A Feast for Crows? Both suffer from the same problems with pacing and bloat.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Ah cool thanks for digging this up. Will check it out.
Sometimes I listen to this X Files Files podcast. Kumail Nanjiani (Silicon Valley) rewatches X Files and talks about it with good guests. Anyway some (most?) of the time he goes digging through archives of old like Usenet message boards about X Files. Old Internet is fascinating.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I haven't gone through the list it some of the old ones I remember:
-Brienne is a descendant of Ser Duncan The Tall
-Varys is a Blackfyre descendant
-Quaith is Dany
-Dawn is Lightbringer
-Brienne is a descendant of Ser Duncan The Tall
-Varys is a Blackfyre descendant
-Quaith is Dany
-Dawn is Lightbringer
On the contrary, the book is impressive as hell. It boggles my mind how Martin can have so much hidden details in the story and character that you can spend weeks talking about all the little things you noticed in the book. Feast for Crows as well.
BrassDragon
Member
Wait, what? That's a new one, I heard speculation about Quaithe being Ashara Dayne or Shiera Seastar (she speaks the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms and her eye colour isn't mentioned.)
Pretty sure others see her at the first meeting and doesn't she hint at using glass candles?
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjQj4BCQSzo&list=LLDeBsBM4TISVWQvlWQnIrpg&index=1
New preview basically the same footage from the trailer with a few new snippets thrown in.
New preview basically the same footage from the trailer with a few new snippets thrown in.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Tropes can become old and tiring. I'm quite tired of the prophecy trope myself.
And also, they don't want to make it too obviously fantasy. They want to reach a mass-market audience here, which is why they fill the show with boobs and edgy sex whenever they can. Too many fantasy tropes, and the show may be perceived as dorky and not cool.
Have you seen how much money Lord of the Rings made? I don't the mass market has a problem with fantasy.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I know a lot of non-dorky people that are into GoT, that would definitely have been turned off if the series had retained the fantasy tropes to a higher degree.
I can also vouch for this from real life experience.
I know a couple people like this who don't like the more fantastical elements of the series, but I'm not sure there's enough of them to make a huge dent in GOT's popularity. Maybe when the show was starting out, since fantasy TV is relatively unproven, but the phenomenal success of HP and LOTR in this generation proves that most audiences are not allergic to fantasy automatically. It's understandable that HBO wanted to emphasize the historical drama aspects of the show when marketing it and that's more their forte, though, especially with all the sex, which is a non-factor in most crossover fantasy hits.
I disagree, it's the amazing story telling and well written characters that people love GoT an increase in magic and fantasy elements would not turn them off. Remember, we're talking about a show that opens with Frost Demons with blue eyes and Ice Swords beheading a man and raising the dead. And, one that early in it's second season had a shadow baby being birthed out of the vagina of a lady.
People aren't turned off my magic/fantasy, they are turned off by poor writing and unbelievable worlds. Just look at the most popular franchises in recent memory The Walking Dead, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Twilight, LOST, Star Wars. All of them contain largely fantastical elements that people are willing to accept. The idea that people "don't like that magic nonsense" is an idea perpetuated by Hollywood execs that is fed to the general populace who in turn feed it back to the execs. How many times of you head a person say "I don't like like fantasy, but I like GoT/LOTR?" Yet, when you ask them what other fantasy shows they have ever watched or read they come up blank. Why would they state they don't like a thing which they have never watched? Because they have been fed the same line that "fantasy shows are weird" or are for "nerdy nerds" and thus just accept this preconceived notion. But, when actually forced to watch said shows realize it's just as good or as bad as the rest.
Everything is a trope, not being a trope is a trope. I think GoT subverts many of the classic fantasy cliche's enough to allow for some basic tropes. Also, we have no idea how these prophecies will play out yet. Afterall, we could learn that all that prophecy nonsense was right full of crap or perhaps that "prophesied warrior" is actually the bad guy.
I'm not saying I disagree with your sentiment. I'm just saying that in my own life experience, people I know have been turned off by the higher fantasy elements.
Things like Stannis' story are too "weird" due to Melisandre, and the fireball thing in the Season 4 finale "didn't fit" with the rest of the show.
Now, I'm not saying I agree with those arguments and opinions. I'm saying that they do exist and are prevalent among a very large quantity of the viewership here. Although, Irish people are pretty unwilling to admit they like anything out of the ordinary in general, so that obviously plays a part.
BobTheFork
Member
99% of fan theories are dumb as hell but it's part of the fun.
It's one of those things you lose by watching a show that already completed after the fact.
The long waits and stupid speculation add something to the show. I have friends watching breaking bad now and it just doesn't compare. They come back two days later with all of season 4 and 5 done and I just think about all the weeks and months we spend talking about every single little thing and theory.
I like it
It's one of those things you lose by watching a show that already completed after the fact.
The long waits and stupid speculation add something to the show. I have friends watching breaking bad now and it just doesn't compare. They come back two days later with all of season 4 and 5 done and I just think about all the weeks and months we spend talking about every single little thing and theory.
I like it
badcrumble
Member
The thing about prophecies, especially as they're treated in ASOIAF, is that they aren't all that consequential because GRRM follows a fairly unusual approach to them (prophecies are so oblique as to never be understood even wrongly, they're frequently not relevant to the person hearing or speaking them, they can turn out to be wholly incorrect as in the case of The Stallion Who Mounts The World, and their events tend to play out as the fairly natural consequences of ordinary events).
I think they're a fairly safe thing to lose for a show that's also (of necessity) abandoned the single-character POV chapter structure because the prophecies themselves usually don't actually cause anything to happen or cause people to make different decisions, so events can play out the same way with or without the prophecies.
The major exceptions to that are Melisandre with Azor Ahai (and the show *does* talk about that prophecy) and Cersei with the valonqar (and the show's going to address that one too, even though I'd argue that it's not necessary to further explain her hatred of Tyrion). Prophecies in the books are mostly there for theorycrafting and for GRRM to try to misdirect readers; they're not really core elements of the story outside of the major Azor Ahai/Prince That Was Promised/dragon has three heads business, and even in those cases they don't actually drive the narrative.
I think they're a fairly safe thing to lose for a show that's also (of necessity) abandoned the single-character POV chapter structure because the prophecies themselves usually don't actually cause anything to happen or cause people to make different decisions, so events can play out the same way with or without the prophecies.
The major exceptions to that are Melisandre with Azor Ahai (and the show *does* talk about that prophecy) and Cersei with the valonqar (and the show's going to address that one too, even though I'd argue that it's not necessary to further explain her hatred of Tyrion). Prophecies in the books are mostly there for theorycrafting and for GRRM to try to misdirect readers; they're not really core elements of the story outside of the major Azor Ahai/Prince That Was Promised/dragon has three heads business, and even in those cases they don't actually drive the narrative.
hendersonhank
Member
The thing that I liked most about the books was how they subverted the tropes. There were prophecies but it just sounded like bullshit. Guys had lifelong rivals who they never actually fought but who instead died elsewhere, often inconsequentially or accidentally or offscreen.
The increasing fantasy as the series goes on is kind of a turn-off for me. But not as much if all the "chosen one" bullshit actually becomes true. If all this "Lightbringer" nonsense comes true and Dany and Jon ride dragons into the sunset, I'll be hugely disappointed. I want Littlefinger to win the game of thrones because of his political acumen.
The increasing fantasy as the series goes on is kind of a turn-off for me. But not as much if all the "chosen one" bullshit actually becomes true. If all this "Lightbringer" nonsense comes true and Dany and Jon ride dragons into the sunset, I'll be hugely disappointed. I want Littlefinger to win the game of thrones because of his political acumen.
I want Littlefinger to burn in all seven hells. You and I are now enemies sir!
badcrumble
Member
Agreed, yeah. One of my favorite passages in all of the books is in ASOS when Tywin lays out the politics behind Robert's Rebellion and Cersei's marriage; it makes it quite clear that every generation has their own wars and their own schemes going on. And it's also been made quite clear that being king isn't about family names or legitimacy, but about whether you can grab and hold onto power.
Nothing would be a more boring ending to the series than "well, the Targaryens are back in charge of Westeros, and they have dragons to beat the Others, so everything is okay now." Happy endings and the idea of ruling 'legitimacy' is something the books have pushed against right from the start.
This is also true. The books are able to get away with some really blatant foreshadowing because there's always such a flood of information in the books. It's impossible to separate the signal from the noise. The books can literally show you Robb's death a full book in advance, but it's so buried in tripping House of the Undying hallucinations and possible symbolism that you can completely ignore it. In the show where every little line of dialog that makes the cut is important, you can't hide things like that.
And on the fantasy trope discussion, the show's popularity totally hinges on its willingness to play down the fantasy elements. I mean, the books are already pretty tame compared to most fantasy, but the show takes it a lot further. Fantasy was able to briefly sell on Lord of the Rings because it was a special-effects spectacle. Now that movie special effects have kind of plateaued, I don't think we'll ever see that kind of fantasy phenomenon again. GoT has to play in that market, and so it tones things down, and that's probably won them millions of viewers they wouldn't otherwise have.
I just think the end of the series will be a flash forward and some singer will be telling the "Song of Ice and Fire." And, it'll talk about Jon Snow who could change into a wolf at will, about the great Jamie Lannister who had a right hand of pure gold, and of Brienne of Tarth the most beautiful woman to have ever lived who could match any swordsman in the realm. She was so beautiful in fact that an enemy cut off half her cheek just so he could no longer endure her mesmerizing beauty and yet still she was fairer than half of the woman in the realm. In other words, all of the main characters in the story will pass into legend like those in the Age of Heroes with their deeds and character traits severely enhanced after centuries of countless retelling.
The singer might even end speaking about how such days as that are long past and how the current wars among lords and kings makes one wish for those simpler times. For in this new world of the Seven Kingdoms, fighting continued, blood was spilled, and many lived and died - just as they had in the Old World. Because war... war never changes.
The singer might even end speaking about how such days as that are long past and how the current wars among lords and kings makes one wish for those simpler times. For in this new world of the Seven Kingdoms, fighting continued, blood was spilled, and many lived and died - just as they had in the Old World. Because war... war never changes.
That sounds so perfect that I'm wondering if you are GRRM in disguise.
But nowdays I sometimes feel a lack of care for if the winds of winter will ever be published and want the show to finish up and have George write some other great stuff instead.
- Status