biosnake20
Member
Cersei is more sympathetic to book readers but I doubt there are many show watchers that think similarly.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
- Start date
- Status
Atraveller
Banned
With the prophecy cut, and Lena's smug smile, it's pretty much impossible for them to.
hipsterpants
Member
Lurking the unsullied thread I'm reminded that people seem to bring up Jaime pushing Bran out of the window as the worst thing he's done. Not killing Ned's men, not murdering the crap out of his poor cousin, but pushing a boy out a window who then gets superpowers and can access the tree internet (treenternet?) is the worst thing he's done.
poor show Jaime ;_;
poor show Jaime ;_;
higgsboson1997
Member
The show is a huge improvement over those two books imo. The books were filled with an overly large amount of world building, poor pacing, and build-up that was never resolved. The problem also wasn't only that there was too much bloat, it's just that there was nothing that happened (apart from maybe Daznakh) that could compare to the large events in the previous books.
The show has been able to maintain its quality and make two very sub-par books very entertaining.
higgsboson1997
Member
What? Isn't that always cited by everyone as Jaime's evilest act? For me, too, that was by far the worst thing he's done. I don't see how it can be treated as "just pushing a kid out of a window".
Steelyuhas
Member
The prophecy was always weak and unnecessary though imo. It wasn't needed in the book, and it wasn't surprising to hear it didn't really land in the show because it just doesn't add anything that isn't already explained by her experiences.
cj_iwakura
Member
It made a nice start to the season, at least.
Why is that ridiculous? It's ridiculous to build up a character then take him out before his best moments. Even non-book readers in the other thread thought it was odd the character didn't amount to anything.
Cersei is sympathetic. Every decision she makes, she makes for her kids. I don't even get the sense that she's that power hungry in the show. She wants Myrcella out of Dorne, and the show has proven that her concerns are valid, because there are top people in Dorne that want to dismember her. Even if she lied to Jaime, it was a good lie to get her daughter out of danger. Margaery isn't as sweet and innocent as she is in the books. She's a bit of a schemer herself. She's clearly manipulating Tommen, she also mocks Cersei to her face, and then there's the prophecy about a younger queen/her dead kids. I understand why she might not want her around Tommen.
Cersei finally getting what was coming to her was a feel good moment in the book. In the show, I might just feel sorry for her.
Pyramid head
Banned
I'm in agreement with this. Cersei getting her comeuppance in the books was glorious. The cruelty she inflicted on people eclipsed anything Joffrey ever did imo. At least Joff kind of had the excuse of being a pyschopath. Everything Cersei did, the people she had tortured or handed to Quyburn(spelling?) to do whatever twisted shit he did to them, was all because she is paranoid about maintaining her position. We have the advantage of being privy to her inner monologue in the books and can see how clever she thinks she's being.
When Jaime crumpled up her letter and threw it in the fire I did a Nelson Muntz laugh in my head. I don't hate show Cersei anywhere near so much.
The book story is leading up to a pay-off for multiple characters, like the war for Selmy, even if it does that with a fairly boring couple of chapters. The show story is leading many characters to a wimper.
Last Hearth
Member
The show also gave two of Cersei's crimes to Joffrey to make him look worse and Cersei better: the slaughter of Robert's bastards, and the attempted murder of Tyrion.
Basileus777
Member
This is pretty much the same as how most book readers react to him.
Hulk on point, as usual. A fuckin' ballerina, that guy.
It's definitely true that most of the pleasure I've gotten out of AFFC and ADWD has been external to the works themselves. Wild speculations about Euron = Daario, joking about fat pink masts, digging on the Great Northern Conspiracy, etc. The books just accomplished so little in all those pages.
The bit about resolving drama offscreen or too late is particularly resonant. It's why I don't mind ditching Lady Stoneheart at all. She's super cool when you talk about her, disconnected from the timeline of the book, but she's pretty flat in the books. Like. Aside from being a menacing presence, her whole drama has been "is she going to kill Brienne or not" which I don't particularly care about, Brienne doesn't matter: the whole world 'bout to be besieged by ancient ice demons from out of nightmares anyway.
The books are so bad about stakes. The show is better but still kind of bad. Remember when we went to Ice Mordor and saw Ice Daddy create lil Ice Baby? That was cool and menacing and bonkers and -- it's been completely abandoned.
Has never been and never will be true. Too many illogical, inconsistent moments and bad writing for that to happen.
Pyramid head
Banned
It's not really. We knew she didn't kill her the moment Brienne cried out a word at the end of that chapter. The 'drama' is, "Is she going to kill Jaime or not?" Probably not, but Jaime's important, no? And seeing how that's going to unfold in the books is going to be more interesting than anything which happend in dorne or Meereen, or Quentyn's fruitless mission, or when Missandei kissed Grey Worm, or however many minutes of whore's tits we're treated to.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Tyrion's arc in Show after escaping is better than anything GRRM did with him over two books.
But what is there is basically the same up until now. If the book was the same Tyrion would have 2-3 chapters and they would be just as boring if not more so. It's still Tyrion whining while being dragged around.
The last two books really weren't that great. You can just see the change from A Storm of Swords to A Feast for Crows. Very bloated, with I suspect a lot of red herrings which is why I think the show has streamlined a lot.
I swear I read somewhere that GRRM had gotten rid of his editor for the first 3 books, and went a different way for the 4th and 5th so maybe that's why. As a fan, I appreciate both the show and the books, but I've found those that read the books first, absolutely consider the show inferior in every way, while a lot of show watchers who read the books end up thinking that the show did a lot of storylines better. I wish I hadn't read the books after the Red Wedding season, because all I do now, is notice inconsistencies, things that are cut or changed from the books.
I swear I read somewhere that GRRM had gotten rid of his editor for the first 3 books, and went a different way for the 4th and 5th so maybe that's why. As a fan, I appreciate both the show and the books, but I've found those that read the books first, absolutely consider the show inferior in every way, while a lot of show watchers who read the books end up thinking that the show did a lot of storylines better. I wish I hadn't read the books after the Red Wedding season, because all I do now, is notice inconsistencies, things that are cut or changed from the books.
Tyrions story is the exactly the same but they have made it worse by taking out most of Tyrion's faults and this has taken out the edge of that story. Yeah everyone laughs at 'wherever whores go' but the point of Tyrion's story in that book is he's at rock bottom and acts like a complete bastard. If you need once scene to compare book and show Tyrion look at the scene in the whore house, in the book he's basically uses a sex slave because he feels bad and then feels worse, in the show he's a charming devil who makes whores chuckle! Personally book Tyrion is a way more complex and interesting at this point despite the chapters taking the form of another overly long travelogue (which the show is doing anyway).
Had they kept the discussion with Jaime and Tysha in, they could have added an additional layer to the Tyrion and Jaime and lannister storyline. Maybe that's why Tyrion wanted to visit a brothel in Volantis so bad etc.
When Tyrion says thank you for my life to Jaime, and hugs him, that's when they could have sprung the talk. Sure a lot of show only fans would scramble trying to remember Tysha but he mentioned her in season 1 and 2 etc. Would have added to why he wanted to kill Tywin, why he killed Shae seeing her in the bed, as opposed to Shae trying to knife him first.
When Tyrion says thank you for my life to Jaime, and hugs him, that's when they could have sprung the talk. Sure a lot of show only fans would scramble trying to remember Tysha but he mentioned her in season 1 and 2 etc. Would have added to why he wanted to kill Tywin, why he killed Shae seeing her in the bed, as opposed to Shae trying to knife him first.
Care to name some? There are some characters that get some great elaboration, but I would like to know which plots they consider better.
Basileus777
Member
It has little to do with the editor and is more about a famous author being unwilling to be edited. People blaming the editor have a really skewed perspective on how much influence any editor has over what GRRM does.
Off the top of my head, I know they absolutely loved Brienne and the Hound, they loved how Oberyn was portrayed, they liked how Ramsay and Theon are playing out and they absolutely love the fact that the Greyjoys and the Kingsmoot stuff has been seemingly cut out. A few talked about that added Bran storyline at Crasters etc. I've also heard that they liked Jaime and Bronn training together. This season, with even more deviation, will be interesting to see what they think.
Naturally I don't agree. I often wish the show was two episodes bigger a season now so they can add more, but I know they barely are able to do ten episodes.
Edit: this is just based off my big whatsapp group and bbm group I have. The bbm group is show only, while whatsapp is all book and show watchers. Roughly 20 or so people in total. Not too big, but still.
While combining the 2 and cutting out 300-400 pages might make for a better read, it would have resulted in a 10 year wait for 1 book.
Brienne x Hound was dumb, Oberyn is liked by readers, Theon has the best arc in Dance, they liked the removal of the Kingsmoot so they forgave how mishandled the Ironborn have been in general I guess. Jaime and Bronn was a good change that made sense but is hardly a plot.
Basileus777
Member
This was also the argument that led to cutting out the end of ADWD and pushing it into the next book. But really, we have no one but GRRM to blame here for not writing faster/more efficiently. That was what was so sad about ADWD, it was the confirmation that AFFC was not a fluke and that there was likely no turnaround for this series coming.
No it doesnt. I was disappointed but than realized it was essentially the other half of Feast. Though the time it's taking for Winds is incredibly disappointing.
cartoon_soldier
Member
I really want to see Nymeria this season
WrenchNinja
Member
So now they're assholes? Ok.
Look maybe she's MORE sympathetic, but no one is gonna cry for her. If you do well... good for you I guess, but you'll be in the minority. People hate her guts.
Atraveller
Banned
It'd be a big mistake to cut Arya's wolf dream out.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
it's usually the well reasoned, educational, persuasive writing that wins me over but ymmv
toddhunter
Member
The problem is the show is streamlining while simultaneously treading water and waiting for the next book. This is why we are getting storylines like Jaime and Bronn going south, which as a book reader we know is going to lead absolutely nowhere.
I agree AFFC and ADWD were mostly poor, so the show is in theory improving things. It just can't do it in a way that progresses the story.
Hopefully from here we get a four episode Arya training montage, which is the only interesting thing left that happens, leading up to a finale with Jon having his troubles and lady stoneheart rocking up out of nowhere to show that he'll push through it.
Basileus777
Member
I don't think they are waiting for the next book at all. Storylines are being merged to make the show more compact, not to tread water.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
The next season must be basically written by this point, hope of waiting for the next book before a TV adaptation is surely lost
toddhunter
Member
So why haven't we seen Bran and why are Jaime and Bronn dicking around in Dorne? Why is Jon going beyond the wall to gather clans?
Granted they can tread water and have plotlines that go nowhere and still be 100% faithful at this point, but I'm expecting them to add even more filler so they don't have to reveal anything new.
Basileus777
Member
You're making way too many assumptions about where any of these TV series plot threads are heading. Of the things you mention, Bran's absence is the only one that really supports the idea that they are stalling, and even that is easily explained by him simply being too far ahead of the other characters. They are deliberately concentrating characters in as few locations as possible and have replaced several book plotlines with their own. None of that is waiting for a book that may never come, and certainly won't come before the next season is finished filming.
toddhunter
Member
You might be right...but I doubt it.
It is like Jon going out to kill the mutineers at Crasters. There he almost meets up with Bran! But not quite so they all just go back to exactly what they were doing before.
Jaime and Bronn will find Myrcella, but she'll decide to stay or something so they'll just head back home and nothing will have changed.
Jon will go out and talk to the Wildlings a bit and then go back home and nothing will have changed.
It is just filler. It is probably better than the official Iron Born/Dorne/Stannis filler plotlines from the book, but it is still treading water.
What's the point of writing like this?
Anyway this sums up why i disagree with the article and most people here in this thread
I don't read asoiaf for the big surprises. I care about the characters and i care about the world. Feast was the book of the smallfolk and i love it for that, if everything was an adrenaline ride i would have dropped the series long ago, the big moments need to be earned to be meaningful otherwise i would be watching fucking spartacus. He's right about the use of cliffhangers though.
When anyone giving critique about a piece of entertainment considers someone an "asshole" for making something they didn't enjoy, that shows the complete lack of perspective the person has. It's ridiculous. By far the most insufferable part of trying to discuss anything on the internet.
AFFC is thematically and structurally the most accomplished book in the series, and its shift in focus to the Lannisters and the common people is a really fun subversion after the climactic events of the preceding book. I love the big narrative events of ASoS as anyone else, but AFFC is a much more accomplished novel.
ADwD is a structural nightmare, though. Martin should have stuck with his original plans to only focus on the non-Feast characters and end on both battles. By reintroducing the Feast characters midway through, it becomes bloated and directionless, and delaying the battles robs it of any climax. I still enjoyed it, but only as part of the series rather than a complete novel in its own right.
ADwD is a structural nightmare, though. Martin should have stuck with his original plans to only focus on the non-Feast characters and end on both battles. By reintroducing the Feast characters midway through, it becomes bloated and directionless, and delaying the battles robs it of any climax. I still enjoyed it, but only as part of the series rather than a complete novel in its own right.
What bothered me the most about AFFC and ADWD is that in AFFC George basically said "I'm tired of all the popular characters so fuck you readers, here's a whole book of campy Dorne and bleak Iron islands!" and with ADWD he said "So, you didn't like all the world bulding and different scenarios? Then take half a book of your favorite character Tyrion drinking, puking and having dirty thoughts with septas!!!!". I think they would have worked way better if T+J+D had some chapters in AFFC and he had put some of the Iron Islands and Brienne chapters in ADWD.
toddhunter
Member
Pretty much. I'm sure somebody has worked out a chapter sequence that worked better, but AFFC was just too much of a non-event (By comparison).
Still, it would be hard not to bring it home in grand style given all the extra world building he did (even if it was boring). Even the wheel of time worked out in the end and we are nowhere near that level.
HarryHengst
Member
Yeah, a lot of people did that and it made the books better. I liked this one.
My girlfriend did consider me a bit crazy,reading two books at the same time and switching between them every 30 minutes. :lol
Moff
Member
I am sure D&D were up to speed of anything that happesn in TWOW, the stuff already written down as well as what GRRM still had in his head. however if they use any of it is absolutely up to them and it would not have mattered at all if it was already published, say 6 months ago.
apart from that, there is no way I would consider AFFC/ADWD great books. if AGOT would have been of such mediocre quality, we would not have seen any other book in the saga. nothing introduced in those books was great, the few good moments it had were culminations of events that started long before and it took far too long and was honestly simply boring. I put AFFC away for several years during a brienne chapter. now I am sure the hardcore fans dont agree and still love it fiercly, no problem, but the show cannot please only those hardcore fans. the reception of AFFC/ADWD was not good, much worse than the first three books.
GRRM himself talked about the prblems he had writing them, the mereenese knot being the most famous one. but honestly, the fact alone that he spent so much time on them and they were nowhere near the level of quality of the first three books, which were put out much much faster, speaks volumes about the problems he had. it's also the reason why I am not especially looking forward to reading TWOW. I certainly will, but GRRM can take his time. he should finish it when the show hype is over, I honestly think that's the best solution for everyone involved.
as for the show. as soon as I finished ADWD I knew there was no way they would adapt that closely for the show. it's simply not good enough. the show would fall apart completely. I knew they had to make one season for both books, cut out a lot, change a lot, which is why I welcome any change they made so far. it simply can't be worse than tha books. can it be sillier? dumber? sure, pretty much guaranteed. but it won't be worse. simply because it won't be as boring and as dragging. that would be the end of the show.
I'll definitely try this, thanks.
ADWD is a drag because of Tyrion and Dany. The rest is gud imo.
toddhunter
Member
To be fair, those Yara scenes... and we haven't seen more of the Sand Snakes yet.
- Status