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[Obliterator]

and it begins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81ochWx5gYs

This was my wife's exact reaction. She looked at me instantly, didn't cry or anything, and said she was fucking done. This wasn't like Red Wedding where people were horrified and depressed, it seems a lot of people are downright angry.

Jon just can't be dead

 

[JeffZero]

BEGIN THE BETS.

#TeamJonReturns #TeamKitReturns

#TeamStannisIsDead

 

[News Bot]

1. Stannis is insane by any measure

Some people really don't understand the definition of insanity. As shit as the show's writing is this season, Stannis is a sane man forced to make terrible decisions thanks to a god and a priestess who can't interpret worth shit.

Don't use words too big for the subject. Don't say 'infinitely' when you mean 'very'; otherwise you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C.S. Lewis (of course he's a hack too I'm sure).

So you should use the same word at all times no matter how many times the same idea is expressed? Good to know. Maybe you should teach English.

 

[Jacob]

It was during a blizzard and the '20 good men' knew the area very well and the invading army did not. It also possible that Bolton just paid off some of the guards to torch the supplies like Stannis suggests later that episode. There's nothing really unreasonable this.

The problem isn't that Ramsay was able to strike a blow against Stannis, even a major one. The problem is the catastrophic extent of said blow is extremely contrived, and just keeps snowballing until one of the major players in the series is undone because of a commando raid that doesn't even take place on screen. The bigger issue is the idiotic way in which Stannis and everyone else reacts to the raid. But while we're on the topic, yes, it's ludicrous that people who "know the land" are also able to sneak into the camp completely undetected, simultaneously set fires all across it (recall that overhead shot), and locate and destroy the entire food supply and all the siege engines, with no one noticing. How much gold did they bring to pay off every guard in the camp?

I see it as pretty similar to the dog thing from last year. A dumb way to resolve a plotline that they couldn't be arsed to think out a better solution to. Ends up undercutting previously established characteristics (Stannis' tenacity, Yara's "50 best killers in the isles") in the process. Not necessarily catastrophic, but still bad writing.

He tried to burn an innocent young man a while ago. He's had a couple more seasons of despair heaped onto him since that point. This is a pretty clear progression for him.

I try not to harp on the issue of pacing because I know how many things need to be accelerated for the screen, but show!Stannis gets to that point of absolute desperation way too quickly. He also extinguished his line by eliminating his only heir, which is a major consideration that no character on the show even acknowledges.

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

This is probably the only episode in the entire season combined that I felt bad for Melly. No matter how I detest her. It's like she lost her faith after all that.

Damn, Davos reaction never to see Shireen again

 

[MisterShine]

Stolen from the Show-Only thread

When the sand lady threw the napkin away, all I saw was this:

I thought of this too. I was dying.

 

[HouseStark1575]

I found the true pink letter on westros.org forum.

Reader

Your false plot is dead, reader. It and all its characters were smashed in 10 weeks of episodes. I have its ending. Tell its author.

Your false plot's themes are dead. Their metaphors smeared upon the walls of Winterhell. Come see them, reader. Your false plot lied, and so did George RR Martin. You told the world Sansa was getting smarter. Instead she went to Winterhell to be raped by Ramsbo.

I will have my shocking moments back. If you want the ending to your story, come and get it. I have it on HBO for all the world to see, proof of your lies. The network is greedy, but we have made a promise to spoil the 7 terrible books that started this series in Winterhell.

I want my gasps back. I want the false plot’s canon. I want to remove as many fantasy elements as possible. I want more whores.

I want to exploit them, their naked bodies. And I want my Saint Tyrion. Send them to me, reader, and I will not trouble you or your nerd friends. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your story’s heart and eat it.

Benioff the Arrogant,

Trueborn author of A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

Lol

 

[Speevy]

Some people really don't understand the definition of insanity. As shit as the show's writing is this season, Stannis is a sane man forced to make terrible decisions thanks to a god and a priestess who can't interpret worth shit.

No, insane is a pragmatist who believes in no gods letting people be sacrificed to a god.

 

[m_shortpants]

That's not the writers fault. It's a production or SFX issue.

No, the whole burn Shireen thing made the storm go away and melt the snow...they even said as much. That's why they were able to march to winterfell. It was inconsistent writing.

 

[News Bot]

No, insane is a pragmatist who believes in no gods letting people be sacrificed to a god.

Which is not in the show. Or the books for that matter.

 

[A_Gorilla]

I still feel a more fitting end for Stannis would have been if Davos killed him upon finding out what happened to Shireen. It would have been so fitting: His most loyal supporter becomes his murderer.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Some people really don't understand the definition of insanity. As shit as the show's writing is this season, Stannis is a sane man forced to make terrible decisions thanks to a god and a priestess who can't interpret worth shit.

And thanks to a little help from 20 good men

And the medium of television keeping him from looking for troops in the north I guess.

I still feel a more fitting end for Stannis would have been if Davos killed him upon finding out what happened to Shireen. It would have been so fitting: His most loyal supporter becomes his murderer.

This is the kind of thing that makes the hack writers have Brienne look at a tower for 6 hours so she can kill Stannis.

"She promised she'd kill him, and after many year she does, in the most unlikely of places. It's like poetry."

 

[duckroll]

That's not the writers fault. It's a production or SFX issue.

The writers are the showrunners. Production is their job too.

 

[hipsterpants]

I know two seasons would have been two much, but IMO a better solution would have been 1.5 seasons of AFFC/ADWD with the last half of the season focused on resolving the cliffhangers from ADWD. The arbitrary amount of book material that the seasons have to cover, especially with a mess like ADWD makes no sense. If anything, it terrifies me as to how the last two seasons are handled because they'll probably try to line up a single book per season. Even if they split say, the last book in half it will still mean that TWOW is rushed through in a single season. Unless of course they abandon that format for yet-to-be-released material (which is honestly pretty unlikely).

Doing some world building, bringing back some old characters that people ask about, avoiding that shit-ass Dorne plot, etc. would have been much better than the rushed mess that we had. Just think of all the cool smaller stuff from earlier seasons that would have been cut if they had been done in the style of S5, bleh.

 

[Damerman]

Man that John stabbing was handled so bad... Pathetic.

Im having an incredibly hard time understanding how it was handled poorly.

I wonder if i would be able to enjoy anything at all in life if my standards were as high as some of you people's are. Its pretty aggrevating watching people throw non-arguments when they are shitting on the show. And my least favorite part is when they use the word contrived. Is there a word that makes it any easier to "criticize" and undermine any story?

 

[stupei]

That's not the writers fault. It's a production or SFX issue.

By rearranging the sequence of events, they are now theoretically escaping by jumping into a snow drift that should no longer be there. That's why it's a writing issue.

This was my wife's exact reaction. She looked at me instantly, didn't cry or anything, and said she was fucking done. This wasn't like Red Wedding where people were horrified and depressed, it seems a lot of people are downright angry.

Jon just can't be dead

It's hard to imagine what they were thinking.

They ended a mediocre season -- complete with the rape of an underage character, threats of pedophilia, and child burnings (only in the last few episodes) -- with a fan favorite character dying. It's not like the Red Wedding at all. That was the biggest gut punch of that season. This comes only two episodes after watching a man murder his own daughter. You can't just make disasters occur right on top of each other like an endless procession of misery and expect the audience to bounce back over and over, especially if the quality of the writing doesn't support that much pain.

You just can't structure a TV season that way and not expect it to result in emotional exhaustion for viewers, especially when you haven't given them canon reasons to hope.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Im having an incredibly hard time understanding how it was handled poorly.

I wonder if i would be able to enjoy anything at all in life if my standards were as high as some of you people's are. Its pretty aggrevating watching people throw non-arguments when they are shitting on the show. And my least favorite part is when they use the word contrived. Is there a word that makes it any easier to "criticize" and undermine any story?

I don't know, but "you guys must be miserable" is a pretty good way to undermine a valid point.

It didn't make sense for them to do it when they did. Nothing changed and now they're full of angry wildlings.

It was kept to the end because it's a twist! Woah! But instead people are just pissed.

 

[Operations]

My worst fear is that as terrible as one would like to think the plot twists in the show were, I don't think D&D ultimately have the power to change major story arcs.

Stannis loses at Winterfell. The Pink Letter is real. The military analysis/ essay written by that passionate reader is nothing but hot air. This is very depressing.

 

[m_shortpants]

By rearranging the sequence of events, they are now theoretically escaping by jumping into a snow drift that should no longer be there. That's why it's a writing issue.



It's hard to imagine what they were thinking.

They ended a mediocre season -- complete with the rape of an underage character, threats of pedophilia, and child burnings (only in the last few episodes) -- with a fan favorite character dying. It's not like the Red Wedding at all. That was the biggest gut punch of that season. This comes only two episodes after watching a man murder his own daughter. You can't just make disasters occur right on top of each other like an endless procession of misery and expect the audience to bounce back over and over, especially if the quality of the writing doesn't support that much pain.

You just can't structure a TV season that way and not expect it to result in emotional exhaustion for viewers, especially when you haven't given them canon reasons to hope.

Well, it seems like all they wanted to do was "break the internet" with these last few episodes. Honestly just appears as if they care more about the shocks and twists rather than the whole now.

 

[A_Gorilla]

Im having an incredibly hard time understanding how it was handled poorly.

I wonder if i would be able to enjoy anything at all in life if my standards were as high as some of you people's are. Its pretty aggrevating watching people throw non-arguments when they are shitting on the show. And my least favorite part is when they use the word contrived. Is there a word that makes it any easier to "criticize" and undermine any story?

In my case, them all stabbing them one at a time while saying For the Watch was just too melodramatic. It should just had them all going at him at once like a prison shanking.

 

[Das Ace]

It's fucking annoying that nothing happened to the Bolton's this season. I guess Twenty of House Goodmen will continue his way to the iron throne with the amount of plot armor he has.

 

[PantherLotus]

Well, it seems like all they wanted to do was "break the internet" with these last few episodes. Honestly just appears as if they care more about the shocks and twists rather than the whole now.

Yeah that's all they care about and why GRRM was totally restrained with the shocking stuff.

 

[Beelzebufo]

It's fucking annoying that nothing happened to the Bolton's this season. I guess Twenty of House Goodmen will continue his way to the iron throne with the amount of plot armor he has.

What armor? He fights shirtless.

 

[Obliterator]

Im having an incredibly hard time understanding how it was handled poorly.

I wonder if i would be able to enjoy anything at all in life if my standards were as high as some of you people's are. Its pretty aggrevating watching people throw non-arguments when they are shitting on the show. And my least favorite part is when they use the word contrived. Is there a word that makes it any easier to "criticize" and undermine any story?

I thought it was handled fine from a show perspective. From a story perspective if he's truly dead its awful though, as I think you are seeing from the lash back. Lot's of anger on the internet over this, not depression and horror like with Red Wedding. Like people just straight up pissed. His ending is too stupid due to how much shit is hyped around him with zero pay off.

And why I hope, he will indeed return.

Also

 

[Yaboosh]

By rearranging the sequence of events, they are now theoretically escaping by jumping into a snow drift that should no longer be there. That's why it's a writing issue.



It's hard to imagine what they were thinking.

They ended a mediocre season -- complete with the rape of an underage character, threats of pedophilia, and child burnings (only in the last few episodes) -- with a fan favorite character dying. It's not like the Red Wedding at all. That was the biggest gut punch of that season. This comes only two episodes after watching a man murder his own daughter. You can't just make disasters occur right on top of each other like an endless procession of misery and expect the audience to bounce back over and over, especially if the quality of the writing doesn't support that much pain.

You just can't structure a TV season that way and not expect it to result in emotional exhaustion for viewers, especially when you haven't given them canon reasons to hope.

Why would the snow drift not be there? The snow drift in the shadow of the walls of the castle?

Does it snow where you live? Do you see huge piles of snow melt immediately when the sun comes up, particularly huge piles of snow that are shadowed?

 

[Speevy]

Which is not in the show. Or the books for that matter.

Stannis is not portrayed in the books and the show as someone who doesn't necessarily believe in a higher power, but is willing to trust the red lady to achieve victory?

I don't buy for a second that Stannis prays at night to the lord of light.

Everything done in this episode concerning his characterization and plotting was right on the mark.

He trusted the red lady. He realized he made a mistake, and so did she. He found himself facing certain defeat because he made the wrong decision.

Either the lord of light is a pile of parlor tricks or Melisandre bet on the wrong horse. Either way, Stannis lost his way.


He was portrayed from the beginning as a great war commander who lost his soul. He died that way too.

And while we're on the subject of everything, why do we suddenly believe a list of great accomplishments means certain victory on the battlefield?

If this show has done anything, it has torn down myths and legends one by one.

 

[Corpekata]

They should've just had Theon or Sansa say like "it'll cushion our fall." A jump from that height even with a non melted by magic snow drift might make viewers question if they would come out unharmed, and the show did a poor job really setting up the environment outside Winterfell. We saw the harsh winter from Stannis' perspective but Ramsay and his army can leave freely, which does not translate to "giant snow pile that would break our fall" sort of conditions around the keep.

Still, I think there are enough context clues in the scene (that neither seem to think they're going to die) that it's not a big sin, but it was pretty sloppy.

 

[JeffZero]

I feel like the writers only ever said things like "break the internet" with 4x10 as well. It's what they do.

 

[Atraveller]

In my case, them all stabbing them one at a time while saying For the Watch was just too melodramatic. It should just had them all going at him at once like a prison shanking.

Totally this, it looked ridiculous.

 

[Tiktaalik]

welp this season sucked.... :\

 

[Kusagari]

So guys...

Where exactly did Mel get her horse when the deserters took them all?

 

[NateDrake]

So guys...

Where exactly did Mel get her horse when the deserters took them all?

Magic.

 

[Corpekata]

So guys...

Where exactly did Mel get her horse when the deserters took them all?

Pocket horse.

 

[Gila]

For a second, when Melisandre returned to Castle Black, I thought it was LSH and I fucking rose outta my seat and was so excited

 

[Beelzebufo]

So guys...

Where exactly did Mel get her horse when the deserters took them all?

Why would she need a horse? She just went from Winterfell to the wall. That's a day trip!

Well the way back. The way there takes forever and everyone dies.

 

[Obliterator]

By rearranging the sequence of events, they are now theoretically escaping by jumping into a snow drift that should no longer be there. That's why it's a writing issue.



It's hard to imagine what they were thinking.

They ended a mediocre season -- complete with the rape of an underage character, threats of pedophilia, and child burnings (only in the last few episodes) -- with a fan favorite character dying. It's not like the Red Wedding at all. That was the biggest gut punch of that season. This comes only two episodes after watching a man murder his own daughter. You can't just make disasters occur right on top of each other like an endless procession of misery and expect the audience to bounce back over and over, especially if the quality of the writing doesn't support that much pain.

You just can't structure a TV season that way and not expect it to result in emotional exhaustion for viewers, especially when you haven't given them canon reasons to hope.

Agree with this 100% and this is what I'm hearing talking to tons of non book readers. The common theme seems to be they are

A) Angry
B) Emotionally exhausted, exactly how you put it. Like you said Red Wedding was the big OMG moment of that season. Multiple people I've talked to have all said, they can't handle watching non stop depressing stuff with no payoff.

 

[duckroll]

It's fucking annoying that nothing happened to the Bolton's this season. I guess Twenty of House Goodmen will continue his way to the iron throne with the amount of plot armor he has.

Why is it annoying? While other characters were wasting their off season time celebrating or scoring with chicks, Ramsay was grinding. His hard work paid off and now he has better stats and skills than anyone else. So he wins. It's only fair.

 

[m_shortpants]

So guys...

Where exactly did Mel get her horse when the deserters took them all?

Lol. There were 0 horses left apparently, hence no one in Stannis' army having a single one.

sigh

 

[a secret-boss]

So guys...

Where exactly did Mel get her horse when the deserters took them all?

shadow mare

 

[Damerman]

My worst fear is that as terrible as one would like to think the plot twists in the show were, I don't think D&D ultimately have the power to change major story arcs.

Stannis loses at Winterfell. The Pink Letter is real. The military analysis/ essay written by that passionate reader is nothing but hot air. This is very depressing.

Coming from watching this episode, not knowing what would happen to stannis i felt the same exact way. One of my favorite scenes in the entire show was Sherine and stannis showing their love for each other, and to see this tragedy unravel really drew an emotional reaction from me. And then some pedant comes and calls it contrived with no basis or any kind of argument really just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'd really prefer to no longer participate in this thread. i'll see some of you in the aSoiaf re-read thread.

 

[JeffZero]

So guys...

Where exactly did Mel get her horse when the deserters took them all?

Remember FireHorse?

 

[foxtrot3d]

Well guys I just finished the episode. I'm speechless, it's clear D&D didn't care much at all about adapting the last two books they know the ending are are sprinting to it in the least "convoluted" manner possible. That Stannis scene just knocked the wind out of me, they ruined a wonderful character. However, I don't believe he's dead, not until I see a body. Stannis burned his daughter alive, and his wife just hung herself which they both brutally showed. They aren't going to do a cut away death for him. He also told Brienne to do her "duty." I'm gonna bet he's alive but I have no idea what his part will be going forward.

Everything else was pretty dumb except for Cercei and Arya.

 

[News Bot]

My worst fear is that as terrible as one would like to think the plot twists in the show were, I don't think D&D ultimately have the power to change major story arcs.

Stannis loses at Winterfell. The Pink Letter is real. The military analysis/ essay written by that passionate reader is nothing but hot air. This is very depressing.

You really just need to look at what they've already changed where the build-up, outcome or general story are completely different in the books to know that none of their stupidity will be in the books. GRRM has also stated that they're separate entities, and even the "building up to the same conclusion" point might end up being false at the rate D&D are going.

Im having an incredibly hard time understanding how it was handled poorly.

I wonder if i would be able to enjoy anything at all in life if my standards were as high as some of you people's are. Its pretty aggrevating watching people throw non-arguments when they are shitting on the show. And my least favorite part is when they use the word contrived. Is there a word that makes it any easier to "criticize" and undermine any story?

1) The reason is never really telegraphed to the viewer. Wildlings? So why did Thorne let a thousand or so now loyal to Jon into Castle Black in the first place rather than let them die or fend for themselves? "For the Watch"? He fucked the Watch. It's now outnumbered by what it thinks are its mortal enemies.

2) The stabbing in the show is pre-planned with a laughable signpost. In the books, it's sudden and perpetrated when the castle is distracted by a giant ripping someone apart. Nobody's distracted in the show. The place is just... empty. Despite having about 100x the residency. In the books his stabbing can be written off as an attack by some wildlings since nobody witnesses it except the stabbers.

 

[Chance Hale]

It's one of the most popular shows of all time. Even if they lose a chunk of viewers it'll have more than enough to propel it through the last two seasons.

The emotional exhaustion will be forgotten in a year.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Coming from watching this episode, not knowing what would happen to stannis i felt the same exact way. One of my favorite scenes in the entire show was Sherine and stannis showing their love for each other, and to see this tragedy unravel really drew an emotional reaction from me. And then some pedant comes and calls it contrived with no basis or any kind of argument really just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'd really prefer to no longer participate in this thread. i'll see some of you in the aSoiaf re-read thread.

Err, well everything that led to that scene was contrived, yes. The acting was good, but that doesn't make the story good or well thought out or anything but nonsensical.

It's simple!

 

[Speevy]

News Bot, Stannis is going to die in the books.


Give me a hug.

 

[stupei]

Well, it seems like all they wanted to do was "break the internet" with these last few episodes. Honestly just appears as if they care more about the shocks and twists rather than the whole now.

It just feels like they think they're untouchable to such a degree that they don't have to concern themselves with conventional ideas about good storytelling. Just get people tweeting frantically enough, and that's a sign you've made good television, I guess.

Why would the snow drift not be there? The snow drift in the shadow of the walls of the castle?

Does it snow where you live? Do you see huge piles of snow melt immediately when the sun comes up, particularly huge piles of snow that are shadowed?

We don't have a lot of fire magic produced by child sacrifice where I live, so I admit I can't speak from experience.

They were jumping from dangerously high and I got the impression in the book that they only reason they survived the fall was because it had been snowing so heavily the snow bank was especially deep. That essentially the same storm that had been helping Ramsay would now also facilitate their escape.

Yeah that's all they care about and why GRRM was totally restrained with the shocking stuff.

Of course he wasn't (isn't?), but he has at least a vague understanding of dramatic pacing. If you only have the negatives piling on top of each other, the impact is lessened every time and the annoyance only increases. It's why George jumps across the map for about 150 pages every time something shocking happens, so you can see what's going on in the other side of the world where that horrific thing doesn't reverberate there at all. It increases tension, of course, because you have to wait longer to find out the fallout of those events, but it also allows the viewer room to breathe.

It's one of the problems with how streamlined the show has become. There is no more breathing room. Remove all that "boring" stuff and all that you have left are an endless series of bombs blowing up in people's faces.

The bang stops being as impressive after a while.

 

[JeffZero]

Anyway.

I thought it was one of the best episodes in the history of the television adaptation, so I think I'm going to slink outside and find likeminded people rather than converse further than my little "bets hedged" post a few moments ago. Sorry it blew for many of you.

Jon is so coming back though.

 

[Violet_0]

oh Olly, so stabby, so predictable

aside from the Cersei scene, I thought this was kind of a bad episode. S5 was probably the weakest season of the show (yet). I still enjoy it watching it, but the quality has gone down quite a bit

I thought it was one of the best episodes in the history of the television adaptation

lol