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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO

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S

Speevy

Banned
News Bot said:
It was too late to do the "honorable" thing. Thorne taking part in the stabbing is actually completely out of left-field and goes against his own character. Not only did he show restraint and distance from the rest of the NW's miscreants previously and was accepting of Jon's commands despite misgivings, but he's a generally honorable man. He let his "mortal enemies" into his walls and killed the man they were loyal to. He doomed the Watch. That's stupidity. Now he's no different from the rebels at Craster's. There was no real build up to the stabbing in the show outside of Olly's dumb five minute stares. It all just got sweeped under the rug only to bounce right back up in that scene.
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There's actually a scene in which he approves Jon's plan to find the mutineers because he assumes Jon will die.

He may be a loyal night's watch man, but he's wished Jon ill from the beginning.

With that said, I was also surprised that he did the deed. However, who knows how anyone would feel after they watched men who just killed their brothers welcomed.

Aliser's last comments were "You have a good heart, Jon Snow. It'll get all of us killed."

No doubt he was able to convince the rest of the NW of the same, that Jon Snow is a good man who is leading us to our own doom.

That it seems to happen in a totally chaotic moment in the books kind of detracts from the fact that it was the will of the Night's Watch, and a direct result of Jon's decisions.
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
Tabris said:
How could anyone not love the Arya, Jamie, and Tyrion scenes at the very least?
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Huh? And all I can think about with Tyrion is how he's an apparently completely flawless character and perfect person, which makes him super boring and unrealistic. This ain't a Superhero comic starring the Bearded Dwarf.

duckroll said:
Who said they didn't? Dorne's gonna stick around all the way to Season 7! :D
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You're posts are the best haha
 
K

Kusagari

Member
rhfb said:
Why wouldn't the ship turn RIGHT the fuck around? Only part of the episode that I thought was really really bad.
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Ellaria and the Sand Snakes might be the dumbest characters in the show and that's saying something.

They're the obvious culprits and also just sent Trystane off to King's Landing where he would be an easy hostage.
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
Speevy said:
There's actually a scene in which he approves Jon's plan to find the mutineers because he assumes Jon will die.

He may be a loyal night's watch man, but he's wished Jon ill from the beginning.

With that said, I was also surprised that he did the deed. However, who knows how anyone would feel after they watched men who just killed their brothers welcomed.

Aliser's last comments were "You have a good heart, Jon Snow. It'll get all of us killed."

No doubt he was able to convince the rest of the NW of the same, that Jon Snow is a good man who is leading us to our own doom.

That it seems to happen in a totally chaotic moment in the books kind of detracts from the fact that it was the will of the Night's Watch, and a direct result of Jon's decisions.
Click to expand...
But they cut out all of the scenes where Jon's noble heart leads to his doom, and replaced it with racism. The last part isn't true at all. It's Bowen, and he says "for the watch".
 
R

Roussow

Member
Uh, Is it mostly safe for a non-book reader to be in here now -- I do know a few things that haven't happened in the show:

I know some stuff about Lady Stoneheart.
And the popular fan theory R+L=J
Some stuff about Euron Greyjoy, at least I think that's his name -- the bloke who has a dragon commanding horn or some shit, everyone thinks he should be played by Mad\ds Mikkelsen.
Actually, that's pretty much it, I'm I safe here now?

Oh, and is it clear Jon is dead? Or is he just shanked and left for dead? The way it was portrayed in the show made it seem like he was defiantly dead (ignoring the possibility of a LSH esque resurrection).

Edit: Oh, and how do book readers feel the adaptation has been, I hear nothing but books 4 & 5 are a massive drop in quality, so is this noticeable show drop in show quality directly correlative to the quality of the source materiel?
 
L

Lothar

Banned
Tabris said:
How could anyone not love the Arya, Jamie, and Tyrion scenes at the very least?
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Replace Tyrion with Cersei.

Tyrion's didn't feel finale worthy. Should have been pushed to Season 6 and made it so Sansa, Stannis, and Jon's stories weren't so rushed.

Roussow said:
Uh, Is it mostly safe for a non-book reader to be in here now -- I do know a few things that haven't happened in the show:
Click to expand...

Yes, totally safe. Only possible spoilers now are real minor imo. Stick around.
 
O

Obliterator

Member
duckroll said:
To add to this further. Based on Bravely Default skills, it is clear that Ramsay mastered both the Ninja and the Monk, and has both Dual Wield and Natural Talent equipped.
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At this point Ramsay has access to all high level skills in every character branch and +100 to all stats equipment on every armor slot
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Roussow said:
Uh, Is it mostly safe for a non-book reader to be in here now -- I do know a few things that haven't happened in the show:

I know some stuff about Lady Stoneheart.
And the popular fan theory R+L=J
Some stuff about Euron Greyjoy, at least I think that's his name -- the bloke who has a dragon commanding horn or some shit, everyone thinks he should be played by Madds Mikkelsen.
Actually, that's pretty much it, I'm I safe here now?

Oh, and is it clear Jon is dead? Or is he just shanked and left for dead? The way it was portrayed in the show made it seem like he was defiantly dead (ignoring the possibility of a LSH esque resurrection). .
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It's weird that you're asking if it's safe in here but also explicitly asking for spoilers.
 
A

A_Gorilla

Banned
Kusagari said:
Nymeria and the Sand Snakes might be the dumbest characters in the show and that's saying something.

They're the obvious culprits and also just sent Trystane off to King's Landing where he would be an easy hostage.
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While I agree, Isn't the whole point of Oberyn and all the Dornish characters save Doron is that they're putting revenge before common sense?
 
S

Speevy

Banned
Beelzebufo said:
But they cut out all of the scenes where Jon's noble heart leads to his doom, and replaced it with racism. The last part isn't true at all. It's Bowen, and he says "for the watch".
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It's not chaotic?

I like it better that it was destined to happen. I didn't want there to be any doubt that Jon could have lived under a different set of circumstances.
 
T

Tiktaalik

Member
Beelzebufo said:
That should be good for an episode before he bites the dust lol. Who knows how long they'll draw that out though
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Very interesting with Varys clearly way over in Meereen, and seemingly set up there for some time I don't know how they'll swing Kevan's death. I think it's got to happen in some other way entirely with Varys maybe not even being involved (hi Littlefinger).
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
Speevy said:
It's not chaotic?

I like it better that it was destined to happen. I didn't want there to be any doubt that Jon could have lived under a different set of circumstances.
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No it's chaotic, but they say "for the watch" so it gets the point across better.

It's destined to happen because Jon spends all of ADWD making mostly terrible decisions that put the watch in so much danger that his brothers execute him "for the watch".

In the show that's all cut out so his brothers execute him to protect the watch from the wildlings that already passed through.. What?

The only other set of circumstances that could have avoided Jon's death in the books would be if he was a completely different character. His compassion is his tragic flaw as a leader.
 
M

Mrbob

Member
This has probably been posted already but this analysis is pretty awesome on discussing who Azor Ahai could be:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3o2LqFZcGU

Combine the above with this:

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/jon-snow-dead-game-of-thrones-azor-ahai-melisandre-warg

Jon Snow Could Warg into His Direwolf I mean, it will seem like a bit of a copout next season if this ends up being the solution. Especially since they didn’t establish Ghost as being anywhere near Jon. Nor have we seen Jon warg in the show. But we have seen characters like Bran and Orell throw themselves into their animals, so this could be a temporary solution for Jon. In the books, the last word he says as he goes down is “Ghost,” which is why people generally buy the warg explanation. Kit Harrington alluded to the warg theory during a panel event earlier this year. He told the audience, “I’d like to be a warg. I’d like to put myself inside a wolf.” (As you might imagine this got a lot of laughs.) Show creator D.B. Weiss then said, “Two words for you: Season 6.” It all seems like a joke, but maybe not. And even if they’re not joking, ”Jon Snow is a wolf now“ doesn’t sound like a permanent solution, does it? So what happens next?
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Kind of telegraphing where the story is going already.
 
R

Roussow

Member
PantherLotus said:
It's weird that you're asking if it's safe in here but also explicitly asking for spoilers.
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I mean -- with the Jon questions, I mostly mean -- is it ambiguous, I can't find that final chapter to compare myself, If he's likely not dead, then I don't mind knowing. Other than that I was just listing a few things I already knew. So all I want to know is basically a comparison of text to screen for the Jon scene.
 
B

brownfedora

Member
News Bot said:
2) The stabbing in the show is pre-planned with a laughable signpost. In the books, it's sudden and perpetrated when the castle is distracted by a giant ripping someone apart. Nobody's distracted in the show. The place is just... empty. Despite having about 100x the residency. In the books his stabbing can be written off as an attack by some wildlings since nobody witnesses it except the stabbers.
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In the books, Melisandre warns Jon about a 1000 times to keep Ghost close. It is hardly subtle or a surprise that Jon is in danger and is eventually knifed.

We don't know how important the subtleties you mention are to the story ahead of us in the show OR the books. I agree this season wasn't awesome, particularly Dorne, but I really think you guys are nitpicking the show to death.
 
B

Burt

Member
I thought it was funny when Brienne read off Renly's titles before she didn't kill Stannis. The concept of her following show Renly was so ridiculous, and the fact that she's clinging so seriously onto him being the rightful king when the closest he got to that was turning to his bros and saying, "Hey bros, I'd be a sweet king, right?... well, it's just absurd.
 
Z

Zabka

Member
Beelzebufo said:
But they cut out all of the scenes where Jon's noble heart leads to his doom, and replaced it with racism. The last part isn't true at all. It's Bowen, and he says "for the watch".
Click to expand...

Jon just got several Night's Watch people killed to save Wildlings. They have a right to be pissed.
 
D

Das Ace

Member
News Bot said:
2) The stabbing in the show is pre-planned with a laughable signpost. In the books, it's sudden and perpetrated when the castle is distracted by a giant ripping someone apart. Nobody's distracted in the show. The place is just... empty. Despite having about 100x the residency. In the books his stabbing can be written off as an attack by some wildlings since nobody witnesses it except the stabbers.
Click to expand...

It is implied that they were planning to stab Jon even before he told them to send troops south.
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
Roussow said:
Edit: Oh, and how do book readers feel the adaptation has been, I hear nothing but books 4 & 5 are a massive drop in quality, so is this noticeable show drop in show quality directly correlative to the quality of the source materiel?
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Well, they've also diverged completely from the books, so that's a non question. The seasons that followed the books the closest (namely 1-3), were great for that reason.

Yes, books 4 and 5 are slower paced than the first three but the variance in quality I think comes from them making several big changes and then trying to skirt around book material. Episodes like Hardholme, which are entirely made up by them, are fine on the other hand.
 
J

Jacob

Member
Roussow said:
Uh, Is it mostly safe for a non-book reader to be in here now -- I do know a few things that haven't happened in the show:
Click to expand...

It depends on how spoiler-averse you are. The show is basically at the same point where the most recent book ended, but there are some plot elements from earlier in the books (for Sam and Arya, at least) that have apparently been moved and will now appear in some form in season six. And there have been a number of preview chapters for the next book, The Winds of Winter, and spoilers from those are sometimes discussed in here.

Oh, and is it clear Jon is dead? Or is he just shanked and left for dead? The way it was portrayed in the show made it seem like he was defiantly dead (ignoring the possibility of a LSH esque resurrection).
Click to expand...

Don't want to get too specific, but most book readers think he survived one way or another. (Edit: saw your subsequent post; yes, it is fairly ambiguous.)

Edit: Oh, and how do book readers feel the adaptation has been, I hear nothing but books 4 & 5 are a massive drop in quality, so is this noticeable show drop in show quality directly correlative to the quality of the source materiel?
Click to expand...

This season struggled in different ways than the fourth and fifth books did. With the last two books one of the biggest problems was the atrociously slow pacing. That obviously wasn't the case for the show. But a lot of the stuff that gets complained about are (to be fair, perceived) plot holes and the wonky characterizations that are not present in the books.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
Zabka said:
Jon just got several Night's Watch people killed to save Wildlings. They have a right to be pissed.
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He also has Night's Watch people to back him up that it was the right choice.

I still can't believe how the show just kind of glossed over him telling the Nights Watch about the FUCKING ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE.

All we ever see is him telling Sam in private.
 
N

News Bot

Banned
brownfedora said:
In the books, Melisandre warns Jon about a 1000 times to keep Ghost close. It is hardly subtle or a surprise that Jon is in danger and is eventually knifed.

We don't know how important the subtleties you mention are to the story ahead of us in the show OR the books. I agree this season wasn't awesome, particularly Dorne, but I really think you guys are nitpicking the show to death.
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It's hinted to the reader, but they have an understanding the characters do not.
 
C

Count of Monte Sawed-Off

un33dab@dpu$$y
Roussow said:
I mean -- with the Jon questions, I mostly mean -- is it ambiguous, I can't find that final chapter to compare myself, If he's likely not dead, then I don't mind knowing. Other than that I was just listing a few things I already knew. So all I want to know is basically a comparison of text to screen for the Jon scene.
Click to expand...

In the book he gets stabbed 3 times before lights out. There's nothing to say he actually dies in the book, but it's probably what happened. The book does give several outs for his death though. The prologue of the book pretty much solely exists to show one way.
 
F

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
I feel sorry for Ramsay because he lost his pet, his wife and his piece of ass in one fell swoop. That's the beginning of the end for him.
 
F

foxtrot3d

Banned
Zabka said:
Jon just got several Night's Watch people killed to save Wildlings. They have a right to be pissed.
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Yeah...

You know when would have been a great time to kill him and all those filthy Wildlings? When he was standing outside the Wall waiting to be let in, famished, tired, with little weapons and strength left. They could have killed him and all the Wildlings with one volley of arrows. But no, they waited to let him and the Wildings in, then let the Wildlings leave the Wall to settle on the Gift, and the wait a little bit more to then suddenly stab him "for the Watch."
 
E

Euron

Member
Pros: I won my bet

Cons: Everything

Seriously, Dorne was laughably bad in every way possible. "LOL LETS JUST LET OUR ENEMIES HAVE A VALUABLE HOSTAGE AFTER WE MURDER THEIR DAUGHTER ARENT WE GREAT AT THIS"

Doran was a complete waste this season. No plan. Should have at least ended the arc with him leading Ellaria to her execution or something.

And that fucking Benjen tease...
 
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