FootballFan
Member
He does mention his sister, which is a pretty stupid thing to let audiences know about if you do not reveal it in that very episode.
wow
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
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He does mention his sister, which is a pretty stupid thing to let audiences know about if you do not reveal it in that very episode.
wow
Season 1 adapted AGOT, the most concise, coherent, and satisfying entry in the series. There was no way a sprawling mess like AFFC could be adapted as easily.
That makes sense, though. People thought it looked dumb. And then word got out that the show was really good. So people watched. Rating are like a boulder rolling downhill. With more people watching there was more media coverage and then more people watched and now you can't even go grocery shopping without being spoiled about Jon's resurrection.
Certainly not by a creative team that wants major twists and characters dying in every episode.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Do people think its coincidence that season 5 was shit when it was attempting to adapt what was by far the most rambling, jumbled book in the series? I'm not excusing the decisions D&D made, but there was a reason season 5 was such a mess: so was the source novel.
But it was extremely different from the novel. D&D took the story in a different direction that was often terrible.
Moff
Member
I would even go so far and say that season 5, despite all it's flaws introduced by D&D, had a lot better reception than AFFC/ADWD.
personally, season 1 and 4 are my favourites, and they are based on my favourite books of the series and I don't think that's a coincidence.
on the other hand, I like season 6, so maybe TWOW will be a decent book again as well?
Most would say that there were better ways to adapt that garbage fire. Their suggestions typically are just standard book purist adherence to the source material, replacing the mess of the show's creation with the mess created by Martin.
FootballFan
Member
Well, then they should have cut everything that was not concise, coherent or satisfying and attempted to identify, extract and build upon plots, characters and motivations that made sense.
Which is what they're doing now, and it's honestly a marked improvement.
Eh, that's not entirely what they're doing now. It's certainly a leaner show and I like getting important stories in every episode, but the motivations are still dumb.
They just had a small council meeting for no reason other than to say that the Mountain was creepy and the Martells are dead.
Then Davos becomes a believer in the lord of light.
Instead of trying to start a new life for himself, Theon is trying to reconnect with the family that treated him like dirt.
The season is already 10 miles ahead of season 5, but it's still messy, and it's because of things that are so easily avoidable with a little more attention paid to small details.
FootballFan
Member
yes
There is a very noticeable decline in quality of the writing now that they have veered from the source material. I say this as someone who saw the show first and didn't have any issues with it until season five. While this season has a few good parts so far, there is still a lot of hackneyed writing and a metric fuckton of contrivance.
diunxx
Member
So sick of this shit, a lot of the quality issues with the latest seasons are the result of dumb changes they have been doing since the second season, not to mention that AFFC and ADWD are leagues better than the shit we been getting from D&D.
FootballFan
Member
I also do not understand the apologist stance people take for DnD
FootballFan
Member
I think we all need to lighten up.
another cool gif
Liquidsnake
Banned
Yes.
Moff
Member
I don't understand the apologist stance people take for AFFC and ADWD.
when I read AFFC I feared ASOIAF was done and ADWD confirmed that, one mediocre book is forgivable, two means the writer lost his touch and the series is done for good, especially and definitely with that much time between them.
without the show it would have ended in mediocrity if it was even ever finished.
I did hope season 5 would be better than those 2 books, D&D tried to save it and failed as well. I still think it should have been possible to make one good season with all the rare good stuff from those 2000 pages, so D&D definitely share the blame. but not alone.
bishopcruz
Member
Beyond the tone, I think my main issue with the Bran scenes as cool as they are, is that they are so pedestrian. We see a scene, then Bran shows up. In the books it kind of feels like a bit of a fever dream for him. Show context. For example in the Tower of Joy scene, why not show the Trident, with bodies everywhere? Why not a shot of Jamie stabbing the king? Robert sitting the throne? It needn't be much, just quick flashes as Bran gets to where he is going in the timeline. It would provide context, and could help set the tone before the scene.
The problem is, they missed half of what made the scene so haunting in the book. It wasn't about the swordfighting, it was about the mystery and the futility. Ned has to kill (or try) the brother of the supposed love of his life. The Kingsgaurd know that their war is over, and that because of their mission, they were unable to do anything about it, but they refuse to fail, even against poor odds. By this point in time they SHOULD be able to talk it out, but too much has happened. That is what the scene is missing.
You are far and a way selling TV short. Game of Thrones isn't on The CW. Shows have done amazing character work and gotten consistent motivations and plots. Just because this is fantasy does not excuse turning Loras into a gay stereotype, or regressing Jamie back to his Season 1 persona.
biosnake20
Member
cj_iwakura
Member
I agree with this. It felt like a badass sword fight, not the melancholic event it is in the book. The only thing I enjoyed was the reveal that Ned didn't actually win.
At this point, apart from Areo Hotah, every 'major' death just feels like another corpse on the pile. I was barely surprised by Roose's demise.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
So who do you think will die next episode? Someone's obviously biting it every episode.
I'm gonna put my money down on Jorah or Daario. Daario especially seems extra useless and the exact sort of character HBO would kill off right now.
I'm gonna put my money down on Jorah or Daario. Daario especially seems extra useless and the exact sort of character HBO would kill off right now.
Daario is definitely dying this season, but I don't know about next episode. I think Yara will probably die in one of the next two episodes.
cj_iwakura
Member
bishopcruz
Member
It's like if given a choice between 'SHOCKING!", badass, or deep. They choose the first two all the damn time. Missing the fact, that the reason that the shocking moments in Season 1-3.5 worked is because there was real depth behind them. I like a good action scene as much as the next guy, but it needs a reason to be there. At least we got that in the ToJ scene.
But now it's all about the shock value, and not about the storytelling. Also, are you saying you liked the Hotah death?
The show has gotten in over its head with chasing the shock factor. Death is completely cheap now.
It has to be Castle Black right? Sansa has no way of knowing that the Mormonts are on her side.
lilraylewis
Member
Yeah definitely agree as well. The show has not been rising to the occasion this season. Every major scene has felt completely hollow. Happened with:
- Roose's death
- Jon Snow's resurrection
- ToJ
They swell the music, throw in some dramatic camera angles, maybe some hammy fight choreography, and expect the audience to be impressed. But there's no emotional impact or meaning there. It's just an empy shell.
Moff
Member
I don't think I am selling tv short because I am not saying game of thrones is the best show ever. it's obviously very flawed. especially when it comes to consistent motivations. but that's not what we are talking about here when it comes to the tower of joy, I think the motivations of every character in the tower of joy scene were very clear.
no, it's about that a TV show simply can't and must not convey every theme in every multi-layered scene from the books that may have been important to some of the book readers. it would become overwhelming in a short time and wither only book readers could follow the plot or a season would be 100 hours long. D&D obviously did not aim for that, they streamlined the story to the point where it was still attractive for the biggest possible audience and they succeeded at that.
I am certainly not saying success equals quality, I don't believe in that generally and it's certainly not the case with game of thrones, but I still think it's super silly to say they failed the tower of joy because they didn't include the "war sucks" theme.
FootballFan
Member
I am not defending AFFC or ADWD(great book btw), they both have problems but it's the job of these writers to make sure that what they decide to move from page to screen is appropriate and that it makes sense. Do you agree?
Like you said, there is in fact enough great material in those books to create great scenes that make a great season, instead they focused on the wrong things and backtracked as fast as they could.
Dorne should have entirely been cut, Jaime should have gone into the riverlands to deal with the fallout from the red wedding for example. The brotherhood should have been included as should the Blackfish. Characters we have seen and known for a while at that stage.
The Manderly scene with Davos and the Freys in ADWD alone was fantastic. Speaking of the Freys, after season 3 they should have had much more focus placed upon them or at least mentioned more often. They killed Robb and Cat, yet we have barely heard or seen anything in regards to how they have progressed or regressed in the show as a family or political force.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
That's what I was thinking too. So far we have:
Episode 1: Prince Doran, Areo Hotah, Trystane
Episode 2: Roose, Walda, Balon
Episode 3: Alliser Thorne, Ollie, Shaggydog
They'll probably make a point to kill at least one notable character in each episode this season.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
I can't see Daario surviving past them encountering the Dothraki so his number is up wherever that happens.
Yara is also doomed this season. But she's probably a late season death to further traumatize Theon. Plus
we know from the trailer that she at least makes it off the Iron Islands
That too
FootballFan
Member
Tower of Joy scene was okay.. The Ned impersonator was miscast, other than that maybe him mentioning his sister is a line that should not have made to screen as the content of the tower should have remained more mysterious until the next scene/episode for the big reveal.
You forgot the biggest death: Shaggydog
cj_iwakura
Member
Nope, but it shocked me, I audibly screamed 'NO!'.
FootballFan
Member
Still hope that he was not killed, and that they used some other dog/wolf. Some here are a bit optimistic in regards to some Umber backstabbery, which I hope is true, but DnD will probably not go down that route.
Copy and paste from earlier.
It's gotta be Castle Black.
Brienne's pre-season promo shot seems to show her standing in front of the door Alliser and co. tried to break down and we saw a shot of Sansa present at the Wildling/Bolton battle in one of the season trailers. If they don't reunite next episode, it's still coming eventually.
Ocarina_117
Banned
ToJ was okay, more spectacle than I pictured it when reading AGoT. I imagined it being much darker, somber and melancholy. I always pictured the 6 with Ned being his closest friends, whom he fought alongside for the entirety of the war. Was hoping for some reaction to their deaths.
Disappointed by the lack of Dawn and Hightower, despite Hightower being mentioned in the episode. Hopefully he's inside the tower.
When Arthur Dayne wished Ned luck for the wars to come, anyone thinking he knew about Rhaegar's prophecy and believed in it? He was wishing Ned luck for the impeding others?
Disappointed by the lack of Dawn and Hightower, despite Hightower being mentioned in the episode. Hopefully he's inside the tower.
When Arthur Dayne wished Ned luck for the wars to come, anyone thinking he knew about Rhaegar's prophecy and believed in it? He was wishing Ned luck for the impeding others?
I'm just curious, did you read them more then once? Because neither clicked for me the first time I read them, but when I re-read the series last year, I really loved where Martin took the story. And my appreciation grew when I dove into theories and analysis. Listening to podcasts like History of Westeros and especially Radio Westeros showed how much I had missed and cemented my love of them.
But the first time through? I was mostly meh on them.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
This was definitely my experience with AFFC. I haven't gotten around to ADWD reread yet. Although it'll take some sort of miracle to make me like most of those Dany chapters.
Or Arya kills them both.
bishopcruz
Member
The thing is AFFC/ADWD is really just one massive book, not two. It's pretty much a character study and a look at the aftermath of war and the difficulty of ruling. We have 3 parallel stories about fucking up while ruling in Jon, Dany, and Cersei. We have Tyrion, Jaime, Sam, Quentyn, and Brienne on journeys, trying to figure out who they are absent their own personal safety nets. We have Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Theon trying to hold on to their identities. Then we have the piece movement and scene setting of Davos, Melisandre, Barristan, Connington, the Dornish, and the Ironborn. Each of which ties in thematically to at least one of the other major themes.
They really are great books, but I do get some of the frustration, especially because of all the cliffhangers. The Battle of Ice at least should have been in the book,
Some of this could be explained by understanding what D&D are truly privy to.
It will be interesting, after the show and books have concluded, to look back at the plots of Dorne, Ironborn, and Aegon and tease out what was emphasized and what should have been.
Excellent post. Even seeing you spell out the personal battles each character is undergoing makes me excited about the story. It's an incredibly complex puzzle that fits in beautifully with the theme of "a heart in conflict with itself" that Martin is so drawn to.
As to the above quote, I totally understand this criticism. I do like spending so much time just putting characters in place to cause serious change, but ending right as two battles are about to start was tough to deal with. We have so much pent up anticipation that to not give us a release is kind of mean. Plus, Jon died, Dany is surrounded by a strange Khal, and Jamie is being lead to Lady Stoneheart.
Ach!
It's why I think Winds is going to be much closer to the fast pacing found in Storm. It almost had to be. It's going to be one major event after another until the book ends with the Wall coming down (or another massive event). He really left off just as things were getting crazy.
H.Cornerstone
Member
Question,
Am I remembering incorrectly, or was it kind of a big deal in the books when you find out the "little birds" are kids?
I feel like it was just nonchalantly thrown into Episode 3.
Am I remembering incorrectly, or was it kind of a big deal in the books when you find out the "little birds" are kids?
I feel like it was just nonchalantly thrown into Episode 3.
bodyofanamerican
Member
I'm pretty sure the show has had Varys paying off kids here and there in past seasons.
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