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[Neffarias_Bredd]

Im finding it harder and harder to imagine how the story can reach a satisfying end with just 2 or whatever seasons to go.

I have the same reservations regarding the books, but a lot more faith in GRRM than the writers of the show

 

[hendersonhank]

This is exactly what it feels like. It's so shallow and poorly written.

How are points 2 and 3 faults of the show and not the books? Arya and Sam in the books have zero chance of having enough time to become master assassin and maester. Not that much time is passing. Hasn't it only been like 3 years since the series started, if that? And I'm sure Jon leaves the Watch in the books too. He doesn't need the Watch to fight the Others. There are like 20 mostly mediocre soldiers in the Watch. His army of wildlings is much more useful.

 

[80s Bad Guy]

How are points 2 and 3 faults of the show and not the books? Arya and Sam in the books have zero chance of having enough time to become master assassin and maester. Not that much time is passing. Hasn't it only been like 3 years since the series started, if that? And I'm sure Jon leaves the Watch in the books too. He doesn't need the Watch to fight the Others. There are like 20 mostly mediocre soldiers in the Watch. His army of wildlings is much more useful.

They weren't mean to be criticisms of the show vs the books, they were just thoughts about the story in general. Point 4 was separate.

I'm sure he leaves the watch in the books too, I just don't see how he would go from honor and loyalty above all else to 'fuck it, I found a sweet loophole in the oath". and abandoning his brothers. But these are things I'm sure the books can address, what he's feeling what he's thinking, we just don't have time for that in this show. It does feel like someone behind the scenes is doing the hurry up motion with their hands.

 

[Harry Stewart]

4. I kinda hate the show now. I mean, it was great as an alternate take/companion piece to the books for me, but the books are the real meat. Having to find out what happens feels like someone just reading me the cliffs notes of the books. It's my own damn fault because I can't stop watching though. Damn you grrm

Yeah the show peaked with the Oberyn-Mountain fight and it's been downhill since with some spikes of brilliance like Hardhome. I think it's become an LOTR vs Hobbit situation where instead of cutting down superior longer material (emphasis on "superior", AFFC and ADWD were too unwieldy for a proper TV adaptation), the creators are left with basic plot points and have to use their imagination to fill in the blanks. It's not bad, but I just think we're left with as good as a show D&D were always capable of when left to their own devices.

 

[SteveWD40]

Im finding it harder and harder to imagine how the story can reach a satisfying end with just 2 or whatever seasons to go.

I have the same reservations regarding the books, but a lot more faith in GRRM than the writers of the show

2 shorter seasons no less, they have hinted at only 15 more hours after S6 ends. I seem to recall there was talk of a film to finish it off but that might have been shelved.

I imagine it's simply that the actors are getting restless, several of the main cast are now in films, Sansa is in X-Men, in a large franchise role, they will be getting expensive and having to turn down large pay-checks from films to make GoT. On top of that some are ageing far too fast, Bran will be looking 30 by the time it ends.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Salon on Lyanna Stark

It's hard not to find attempts to view Game Of Thrones' medieval society through a modern lens as asinine hot takes. The entire concept of adolescence did not exist in the War Of Roses era of our world, which Westeros is based on. I'm referring to the paragraph about whether Lyanna was old enough to consent. She was, in Westeros.

The age aspect really goes deeper than just sex/marriage as well. It's reflected in medieval views on work as well as military service. Robb Stark leading a military resistance isn't particularly shocking in light of Joan Of Arc or Shah Ismail I.

 

[Gigglepoo]

How are points 2 and 3 faults of the show and not the books? Arya and Sam in the books have zero chance of having enough time to become master assassin and maester. Not that much time is passing.

In the books, Jaquen and The Iron Born are at Oldtown with Sam. And glass candles are a thing. It's clear Jon is going to be important.

And Arya is already an adept assassin and a warg. So, again, there's setup for something interesting there as well.

Plus, even if you ignore the endgame, Sam and Arya are deeper, more compelling characters than their show counterparts. Martin is talented enough to make me care about machinations ateliund the world even if it's not obvious how it all ties together.

 

[mantidor]

It's hard not to find attempts to view Game Of Thrones' medieval society through a modern lens as asinine hot takes. The entire concept of adolescence did not exist in the War Of Roses era of our world, which Westeros is based on. I'm referring to the paragraph about whether Lyanna was old enough to consent. She was, in Westeros.

The age aspect really goes deeper than just sex/marriage as well. It's reflected in medieval views on work as well as military service. Robb Stark leading a military resistance isn't particularly shocking in light of Joan Of Arc or Shah Ismail I.

I don't think the concept of consent even existed in medieval world.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

In the books, Jaquen and The Iron Born are at Oldtown with Sam. And glass candles are a thing. It's clear Jon is going to be important.

And Arya is already an adept assassin and a warg. So, again, there's setup for something interesting there as well.

Plus, even if you ignore the endgame, Sam and Arya are deeper, more compelling characters than their show counterparts. Martin is talented enough to make me care about machinations ateliund the world even if it's not obvious how it all ties together.

Plus, in the books Sam has a fat pink mast.

 

[Showaddy]

Plus, in the books Sam has a fat pink mast.

But show Sam will have Dickon.

 

[dubq]

Every time I re-sub to these threads I almost instantly regret it. People can't seem to enjoy anything around these parts. Check you on the flip side.

 

[Lothar]

Every time I re-sub to these threads I almost instantly regret it. People can't seem to enjoy anything around these parts. Check you on the flip side.

This is how you know you're liking something shitty. You can't defend it and leave rather than see the criticism.

 

[Blue Ninja]

CLEGANE BOWL!!!!! Episode 9 baby.

Cleganebowl Episode 8,

Spoiler

Battle of the Bastards

Episode 9. Shit's gonna be fab.

 

[Squid_Vicious]

Not sure about spoilers from A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms so I will tag...

Spoiler

The Bloodraven who is currently training Bran is the same "evil" Bloodraven from Dunk and Egg stories? I would love the show to delve deeper into his backstory, especially how he came to be this all-seeing tree wizard.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Im finding it harder and harder to imagine how the story can reach a satisfying end with just 2 or whatever seasons to go.

I have the same reservations regarding the books, but a lot more faith in GRRM than the writers of the show

I've always hoped for the war against the white walkers to be a long drawn out, multi year war but I'm starting to think it's going to be one big battle like Gondor from Return of the King or something. That would be a let down

 

[Cornballer]

A few more things:

- Ratings for this week remain high and even with last week
- John Bradley interview with NY Mag
- Huffington Post interview with Art Parkinson

 

[jett]

A few more things:

- Ratings for this week remain high and even with last week
- John Bradley interview with NY Mag
- Huffington Post interview with Art Parkinson

GoT with best in demo and third best overall, despite being a premium cable show. That's impressive stuff.

When it ends HBO is going to be fucked. They have nothing even remotely close to it in terms of success. What could take it place? Westworld maybe, if that apparent clusterfuck unfucks itself.

 

[NeoGiff]

Not sure about spoilers from A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms so I will tag...

Spoiler

The Bloodraven who is currently training Bran is the same "evil" Bloodraven from Dunk and Egg stories? I would love the show to delve deeper into his backstory, especially how he came to be this all-seeing tree wizard.

Yep, he's one and the same. They have possibly abandoned that angle in the show, though, due to the Two-Eyed Sydow's "1000 years" comment.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Spoiler

The Bloodraven who is currently training Bran is the same "evil" Bloodraven from Dunk and Egg stories? I would love the show to delve deeper into his backstory, especially how he came to be this all-seeing tree wizard.

I don't think that's the case. As he said in the last episode, he's been there

Spoiler

for 1,000 years. Bloodraven would be roughly 140 years old. I think he's a different character. The show doesn't want to get involved with the Blackfyre rebellion (hence why fAeon was removed) so it would just be messy for them to explain who The Three-Eyed Raven is.

 

[MisterR]

How are points 2 and 3 faults of the show and not the books? Arya and Sam in the books have zero chance of having enough time to become master assassin and maester. Not that much time is passing. Hasn't it only been like 3 years since the series started, if that? And I'm sure Jon leaves the Watch in the books too. He doesn't need the Watch to fight the Others. There are like 20 mostly mediocre soldiers in the Watch. His army of wildlings is much more useful.

I wasn't addressing those particular points, just the show in general.

 

[MisterR]

AFFC and ADWD are plodding messes. Too many characters and plot threads are introduced that the reader doesn't have much reason to care about, and the characters and plots that the reader has an attachment to go neglected or advance at a glacial pace. There's a lot of complaints from book readers that the show is now advancing too quickly and that it's cutting corners to keep the story moving, but honestly, those are corners that Martin should have made if he had a competent editor, or at least listened to that competent editor.

I think season 5 is the weakest season of the show so far not only because it was adapting some of the weakest material in the series, but because it was still trying to cling to plot threads introduced in those weakest installments that shouldn't have even been introduced. It was smart this season to skip all of Doran's protracted plotting that we know will fail, and get straight to Dorne's open rebellion, and since it's free of much of the books for the most part, I expect the show to continue to trim the fat, to the show's benefit.

Like I said, to each their own. The sixth season hasn't been any better than the fifth so far, and they can't blame it on the alleged awful content from GRRM. You may be more of a get to the end of the story kind of person. I like the large world GRRM has created and what you find to be a plodding mess, I find to be more time exploring this world. If you think the show rushing to the end, cutting the fat, as you say, is a better entertainment, then more power to you. I've found the first three episodes of this season to be a plodding mess.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I like the large world GRRM has created and what you find to be a plodding mess, I find to be more time exploring this world.

*High five*

What's so incredible to me is that, even though his books are incredibly long, almost every stray detail fits into the larger story that he's telling. It's why re-reads are so important. No one would be able to take in everything that he's doing their first time through, or even their second or third. He's really created a world where people exist for reasons other than mere plot devices to ferry characters to the end.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Seems like ratings still on the rise for 6 seasons straight. If we are seriously having 2 shorter seasons to finish the series color me surprised if HBO isn't rushing with plans for a spinoff as we speak.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

GoT with best in demo and third best overall, despite being a premium cable show. That's impressive stuff.

When it ends HBO is going to be fucked. They have nothing even remotely close to it in terms of success. What could take it place? Westworld maybe, if that apparent clusterfuck unfucks itself.

If only that jackass Chris Tolkien would sell them the rights to The Silmarillion...

 

[Moff]

To each their own I guess, but I don't see how anyone could consider AFFC/ADWD mediocre and the show good. While they have their faults, they are worlds more interesting and well written than the show.

better written, sure
more interesting, no way
I dropped AFFC during a brienne chapter, hearing/reading the name hyle hunt still makes me automatically tired, I noticed that when I watched the septon meribald video linked above
if you think AFFC/ADWD are anywhere near the first three books, you didn't understand what made them so good in the first place.

GRRM lost his touch but last episode featured these writers taking a good memorable scene GRRM wrote and butchered it and made it nothing.

you apparently want us to guess but you are talking about the tower of joy? I expected them to butcher it but I was very pleasantly surprised, just like with the rest of the season so far. what didn't you like about it? that its "nothing" is already objectively wrong.

 

[mantidor]

If only that jackass Chris Tolkien would sell them the rights to The Silmarillion...

The thing is that Game of Thrones isn't popular because it's fantasy, it's popular because it's a soap opera.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

The thing is that Game of Thrones isn't popular because it's fantasy, it's popular because it's a soap opera.

I don't know many soaps operas that have Ice Demons, Zombies, T&A, and dudes crushing other dude's skulls with their bare hands.

 

[Sean C]

It's hard not to find attempts to view Game Of Thrones' medieval society through a modern lens as asinine hot takes. The entire concept of adolescence did not exist in the War Of Roses era of our world, which Westeros is based on. I'm referring to the paragraph about whether Lyanna was old enough to consent. She was, in Westeros.

That's actually a widespread misconception, though it's clear GRRM believes he's being historically accurate in that regard.

 

[hoos30]

*High five*

What's so incredible to me is that, even though his books are incredibly long, almost every stray detail fits into the larger story that he's telling. It's why re-reads are so important. No one would be able to take in everything that he's doing their first time through, or even their second or third. He's really created a world where people exist for reasons other than mere plot devices to ferry characters to the end.

The Sand Snakes are just as bad in the books as they are on screen, we just didn't have to live with the cheesy fight choreography. On the plus side, the Show Snakes only cost me twenty minutes or so of screen time while I suffered through the Book Snake plot for hours (okay, weeks, more like months).

To each his own.

 

[RaidenZR]

This cracked me up. I don't recall what his name is on the show but I like calling him "Karl Brogo" to my friends.

 

[Morts]

Regarding the Tower of Joy, has it already been theorized that (speculation)

Spoiler

Ned kills Lyanna after finding out she ran off with Rhaegar willingly and getting their father and brother killed for no reason?

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Regarding the Tower of Joy, has it already been theorized that (speculation)

Spoiler

Ned kills Lyanna after finding out she ran off with Rhaegar willingly and getting their father and brother killed for no reason?

Spoiler

Ummm...Lyanna dies due to childbirth? Ned killing her would be awful awful

 

[Showaddy]

Regarding the Tower of Joy, has it already been theorized that (speculation)

Spoiler

Ned kills Lyanna after finding out she ran off with Rhaegar willingly and getting their father and brother killed for no reason?

Nah that's crazy. Especially because he apparently raised her bastard child as his own out of love for her ruining his own honour in the process.

 

[80s Bad Guy]

Spoiler

Ummm...Lyanna dies due to childbirth? Ned killing her would be awful awful

Spoiler

Or she threw herself from the tower when Ned tells her they killed Rhaegar

Sticking with the spoiler tag 'cause they did it.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

It's unaired show speculation so spoilers be fine

 

[Raide]

Massively lttp. Manage to start the series and caught up to the current series with a few days of solid watching.

Worst demise of the whole series goes to the dude getting he teeth punched out and then eyes/head crushed by Mountain (I think it was Mountain !)

I still think the entire series could have dropped 90% of the nudity and still be a great story. Mine you, they did have some beautiful lady eye-candy of course haha.


Edit:Wait, this is book thing right? IS there a series only place, just in case I am messing things up.

 

[Morts]

Spoiler

Ummm...Lyanna dies due to childbirth? Ned killing her would be awful awful

We assume (it's been a while since I read the book but I don't remember it being spelled out. I could see him being pissed at her for basically starting the rebellion based on a lie, but the kid would be blameless.

 

[sinxtanx]

The Hound will win Cleganebowl

with his +7 Rainbow Fire Sword

a sword that shoots rainbows made of fire that do 777 damage

 

[Roland_Gunner]

In the books, Jaquen and The Iron Born are at Oldtown with Sam. And glass candles are a thing. It's clear Jon is going to be important.

And Arya is already an adept assassin and a warg. So, again, there's setup for something interesting there as well.

Plus, even if you ignore the endgame, Sam and Arya are deeper, more compelling characters than their show counterparts. Martin is talented enough to make me care about machinations ateliund the world even if it's not obvious how it all ties together.

Supposedly there are only two more books left in the series. How is Martin going to resolve all the Oldtown stuff and have Sam then do whatever else he's supposed to do, while juggling all of the other plot points in less that 2,000 pages of text?

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

The Sand Snakes are just as bad in the books as they are on screen, we just didn't have to live with the cheesy fight choreography. On the plus side, the Show Snakes only cost me twenty minutes or so of screen time while I suffered through the Book Snake plot for hours (okay, weeks, more like months).

To each his own.

Eh, I disagree. The first time I read the AFFC I hated the Dorne sections since I just wanted to get back to the plot lines I cared about, but during my re-read I really appreciated the sections devoted to Dorne. It introduced some interesting characters and led to some cool plot lines.

Contrast that with Dorne and the sandsnakes in the show, which so far has been a boring bungled mess. I think it shows how the show is willing to quickly resolve plot lines even if they kinda fuck it up. This is what I'm worried about going forward, as there aren't many seasons left and everything looks very unresolved.

 

[mantidor]

Massively lttp. Manage to start the series and caught up to the current series with a few days of solid watching.

Worst demise of the whole series goes to the dude getting he teeth punched out and then eyes/head crushed by Mountain (I think it was Mountain !)

I still think the entire series could have dropped 90% of the nudity and still be a great story. Mine you, they did have some beautiful lady eye-candy of course haha.


Edit:Wait, this is book thing right? IS there a series only place, just in case I am messing things up.

Yup there is another no book spoiler thread.

Even though the show surpassed the books there are still storylines from the book that will appear in this season so I recommend leaving this thread

 

[hendersonhank]

In the books, Jaquen and The Iron Born are at Oldtown with Sam. And glass candles are a thing. It's clear Jon is going to be important.

I don't see how their presence makes it any more believable that Sam will become a Maester overnight.

And Arya is already an adept assassin and a warg. So, again, there's setup for something interesting there as well.

Again, she should not be an adept assassin or anything like it, she is like 11 years old and she has spent barely any time there.

Plus, even if you ignore the endgame, Sam and Arya are deeper, more compelling characters than their show counterparts. Martin is talented enough to make me care about machinations ateliund the world even if it's not obvious how it all ties together.

I think book Sam is far worse than show Sam, not that I like show Sam either. Book Sam was worthless, I groaned every time I saw his name as the chapter heading.

 

[Raide]

Yup there is another no book spoiler thread.

Even though the show surpassed the books there are still storylines from the book that will appear in this season so I recommend leaving this thread

Thanks! Sorry for messing up the thread a little.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

I don't see how their presence makes it any more believable that Sam will become a Maester overnight

I don't think the end game is that Sam becomes a Maester, I think it was a way for GRRM to get Sam to a place where important plot points are occurring (Maester conspiracy, faceless men, etc). This could still totally happen in the show btw, but based on the last episode it seems like they're stopping at Horn Hill first

 

[Gigglepoo]

Supposedly there are only two more books left in the series. How is Martin going to resolve all the Oldtown stuff and have Sam then do whatever else he's supposed to do, while juggling all of the other plot points in less that 2,000 pages of text?

No idea. That's why a lot of people think there might be three more. Who knows? He's created an incredible world.

I don't see how their presence makes it any more believable that Sam will become a Maester overnight.

He probably won't become a maester. But we'll see the events of Oldtown through his eyes and he can communicate whatever he learns via glass candle.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

Spoiler

Ummm...Lyanna dies due to childbirth? Ned killing her would be awful awful

Spoiler tags spawn spoiler tags:

Spoiler

In that case, it's confirmed. D&D comin' at ya with another EXTRA HOT PLOT TWIST.

 

[Eidan]

Like I said, to each their own. The sixth season hasn't been any better than the fifth so far, and they can't blame it on the alleged awful content from GRRM. You may be more of a get to the end of the story kind of person. I like the large world GRRM has created and what you find to be a plodding mess, I find to be more time exploring this world. If you think the show rushing to the end, cutting the fat, as you say, is a better entertainment, then more power to you. I've found the first three episodes of this season to be a plodding mess.

You can have world building while also keeping the chains moving. Most quality fantasy authors do this. Hell, Martin did it in the first three books. The world building of the last two books is just meandering, and display Martin's loss of control of his own narrative.

 

[bishopcruz]

I actually enjoyed this episode more than the others of this season, TBH, even if it had some boring parts.

As for the Tower of Joy scene, it was okay. I dislike that they really downplay parts of the lore/mythos, like Dawn. It was supposed to be this fantastic looking greatsword, right?

The problem is, the Tower of Joy should feel like a tragedy. People dying, for no good reason. The war is over, some of the best Kingsguard are sitting on the sidelines, they know that they have lost. But it is their duty to protect Lyanna, and it is Ned's to get her.

The "Now it ends" line was the worst of the lot honestly. It should have been said with melancholy, in the show it was just supposed to sound badass. Missing the point entirely.

As far as the fight, it went well, with as good choreography as one could expect from dual wielding bastard swords. Also, why does no one use shields?

I had hope after episode 2, but this episode was pretty nonsensical. At least Olly is dead.

 

[Gigglepoo]

You can have world building while also keeping the chains moving. Most quality fantasy authors do this. Hell, Martin did it in the first three books. The world building of the last two books is just meandering, and display Martin's loss of control of his own narrative.

From my perspective, the first three books encompass the War of the Five Kings. We see where the animosity begins, why the major players rise up, and how each of Westeros' leaders fail because of their own mistakes or the backstabbing plots of their families. It's a tight, focused narrative that starts just before the trouble begins so we're always knee deep in intrigue.

Feast and Dance take place after that war has ended. That forward momentum has slowed down as the kingdom settles uneasily under its new rulers. The focus is shifted to the rise and fall of kings to what happened to the rest of the world when the mightiest powers clashed. We see the aftermath of the battles through Brianne's eyes. We get hints of revenge out in Dorne. We see attempts to take over the realm in Meereen. And we see the true threat in the North.

I love this setup. The first three books are fast paced, gripping political thrillers. But then we take a step backward. Treaties and prophecies become more important.

I get that people who read the first three books wanted more straight-ahead action, but this approach makes more sense to me. There needs to be a breath. We need to see the new pieces moved into place before the next major events take place. Yeah, it's disappointing he had to split this into two books, but there is just so much going on that it would be impossible to shrink it to one.

I do think we'll get back to the structure of the first three books in Winds and Dream. Now that's he placed the dominoes it's just a matter of giving them a slight nudge.

 

[Moff]

The problem is, the Tower of Joy should feel like a tragedy. People dying, for no good reason. The war is over, some of the best Kingsguard are sitting on the sidelines, they know that they have lost. But it is their duty to protect Lyanna, and it is Ned's to get her.

The "Now it ends" line was the worst of the lot honestly. It should have been said with melancholy, in the show it was just supposed to sound badass. Missing the point entirely.

As far as the fight, it went well, with as good choreography as one could expect from dual wielding bastard swords. Also, why does no one use shields?

I had hope after episode 2, but this episode was pretty nonsensical. At least Olly is dead.

the tower of joy dialogue in the book has many badass lines, the most badass lines didn't even make it to the show.
the whole point of the scene, that the best kingsguard are standing around there instead of guarding aerys II or rhaegar was perfectly brought on screen, and what else is there?

worse than the lack of shields is the lack of helmets btw.