Really? The only tragic part of the Tower of Joy takes place in the tower.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Really? The only tragic part of the Tower of Joy takes place in the tower.
The bravest and best fighters in the land die needlessly after the war has ended. It's incredibly depressing. Imagine how the Dayne's felt when Ned arrived with Dawn. They must have thought the threat had ended by then only to find out their son and brother had been killed for defending a tower in the middle of nowhere. Martin is openly anti-war and if there's any scene that exemplifies that futility of fighting, the Tower of Joy is it.
I guess I can see how one could read it that way. I certainly didn't, and certainly wouldn't fault the show for having "badass" lines in the scene, considering they're lines plucked straight from Martin (I guess the actor didn't frown enough?). Feels like more book reader whinging for the sake of whinging honestly.
Oldest Snake
Member
Yup yup yup.
It's almost like Ned is pleading with them, the idea that they should have met long before that confrontation and resolved the conflict before it came to this. I'm still of the opinion that the ToJ sequence was incredibly important to depict as a dream sequence, because it allows the extent of Ned's PTSD to be felt.
Moff
Member
those lines are all obviously about their secret mission and not about how ned wanted to resolve a conflict before that.
they were not present at important battles because they were guarding the new crown prince at the tower of joy.
80s Bad Guy
Banned
That's a really good take. And clearly they didn't take nearly as much as they should have from that scene as it's basically a 'save the princess from the tower' moment.
And why they would need to defend their Prince's mistress from her own brother was not conveyed at all. At least not yet.
Seriously, am I crazy? It seems obvious that the reader is supposed to ask "Why would Rhaegar want his most important soldiers here instead of during these other key moments? What are they protecting?" instead of "Wow, this is all so sad. Why can't we just give peace a chance?"
There can be more than one takeaway from a given scene.
True. But then I figure you'd also agree that there was nothing wrong with the show not hammering home an anti-war message during the scene, considering one could easily read the text and not have it conjure up thoughts of how war isn't the answer.
D&D may have did a good job with everything in the first few seasons, being faithful to the books and all, but now it seems like very little effort is being put into the show, D&D just cut whatever shit that would mean more work. As a result the atmosphere is different and things are making less and less sense. If the show was made today with the amount of effort they are putting into now it wouldn't be popular. It was once great, now it's half-arsed.
Oldest Snake
Member
You're both assuming that those events played out exactly as described in the books. I think that we see this sequence via Ned's fever dream, the moment he found his sister, is an important key into his state of mind about the whole thing.
Why sadness? Is Ned just bummed that he didn't figure out their totally super secret mission beforehand?
I don't believe that what we see in Ned's dream is an exact recreation of the events at the Tower, but a skewed version of said events after 20+ years of guilt and sadness that has built up inside of Ned.
I thought the Tower of Joy sequence on the show as done really well. All three flashbacks have been great. The fight was pretty cool and the tease at the end didn't feel cheap at all. We're in Bran's shoes. Shut up, old man, and let me see what's in the tower! Now show watchers and book readers are chomping at the bit for when we return to that scene.
And I don't expect the show to have any major themes considering how they struggle to even make basic plot elements make sense. While the book is strongly anti-war the books will be content to have a kickass fight sequence one moment while lamenting the folly of war in another. It is what it is.
Moff
Member
absolutely, but saying the scene is butchered or D&D didn't take all the should have is "stannis did not nod hard enough" level of silly purist criticism.
the tower of joy's whole point is that the readers are supposed to wonder why the best knights of the realm were not at the battles they could have turned ("woe to the usurper if we had been") but were guarding whatever is in that tower. if you think the scenes main point was to show the futility of the war you are out of your mind, it's a minor detail at best compared to the sagas biggest secret and twist.
I don't think the show's production value and popularity are at all correlated.
What has slipped is the writing, and while it's true that they are much less faithful to the books now, that has never bothered the fans or the critics.
If it had, perhaps now we would be looking at a different show.
MisterR
Member
I can kind of get why you're such a show fan and constantly bash the books. It doesn't seem like you really got any of the context of the books.
The second sword is know as the "Only Cat".
As I said above, I liked the show's version. But the bolded part is wrong. All great fiction has an underlying point beyond the overt plot machinations. A Song of Ice and Fire is, in part, about how stupid and pointless and wasteful war is. Yes, the main reason we need to go to the Tower of Joy is to find out Jon's parentage, but that other aspect (war sucks!) is important, too.
But, as I said, D&D don't understand depth and nuance, at least not when it pertains to Game of Thrones. They're only capable of giving us the most basic plot developments without any of the themes that go with them. It's a real shame.
I agree, and I haven't read all the books. Something has been lost about the show since last season and this season. I think it has to do with the fact that not only do they not have source material to work off anymore (at least official material that the rest of us have access to) but also because they're working off self-imposed deadlines in order to have annual debuts, which to me seems to be affecting the quality. Plot aside, you can't tell me that the Dothraki sequences don't look like a porno parody now, and the writing throughout all of the plot lines is anachronistic and dull more than ever before.
I still enjoy looking forward to watching every week but its definitely not the same. This isn't nostalgia speaking either.
Wait, now we're just going to assume that the narrator is unreliable, and that some or most of what is depicted could have happened differently?
If we're going to say that the Tower of Joy section in AGOT is a skewed version of the events, painted by years of Ned's guilt and regret, why would you then assume Ned's voice is sad for Arthur Dayne and his crew, and not for his sister who died moments later?
Haha yes. As the Batman v. Superman thread has shown me, I'm not much of a "thinking man". I leave that to sharper minds like yours.
I haven't seen the promo shots. That's good to know, thanks. Hopefully it's next episode then.
George should fuck with us by having Selmy killed by those crazy stilt fighters in The Battle of Fire.
I think the basic problem with the show is not that they've gone out on the limb and tried too many new things, but that they've kept the plot absolutely still for 2 seasons.
What worked in the first 4 seasons was the idea that the Lannisters were winning, and the Starks were always in a state of remembering and avenging.
Once they abandoned that dynamic, the plot shifted to smaller stories, but D and D held fast to the dynamic of some other house winning, and the Starks always in a state of remembering and avenging.
This is why Ramsay, despite having the same role in future books and being played by a fantastic actor, is grating.
George R.R. Martin wrote a character named Joffrey who was unbearably smug and vicious, and undeservedly won a war. Then he killed him. D and D gave him a more handsome face and a 6 pack.
What worked in the first 4 seasons was the idea that the Lannisters were winning, and the Starks were always in a state of remembering and avenging.
Once they abandoned that dynamic, the plot shifted to smaller stories, but D and D held fast to the dynamic of some other house winning, and the Starks always in a state of remembering and avenging.
This is why Ramsay, despite having the same role in future books and being played by a fantastic actor, is grating.
George R.R. Martin wrote a character named Joffrey who was unbearably smug and vicious, and undeservedly won a war. Then he killed him. D and D gave him a more handsome face and a 6 pack.
Moff
Member
I don't think it's nearly as much about what they are capable of but about how well they know how TV shows and their audiences work.
And I don't feel they haven't given us any scenes that show us how much war sucks.
I just don't agree that this necessarily had to be in the tower of joy scene when this is an obvious and prevalent theme throughout the whole saga and if it's not there the scene is butchered or D&D have failed in any way.
I don't think the Tower of Joy scene was bad at all. I think any show viewer watching that would have thought it was cool to see Ned Stark in his younger days, and would wonder who was screaming from that tower.
It was just a piece of storytelling. I thought they might turn it into a 5 star production, but they didn't. It's simple, serviceable, and it's over.
It was just a piece of storytelling. I thought they might turn it into a 5 star production, but they didn't. It's simple, serviceable, and it's over.
Woody Invincible
Banned
Just imaging Dorne getting worse had Darkstar been around to buggle things up proper.
Here's a crazy thing: Benioff wrote an excellent book called City of Thieves that's about how terrible and stupid war is. That's what I added "at least in Game of Thrones" to my post because I know they are capable of depth but don't really see much in the way of thematic resonance in the show's storytelling. How many people watching the show are going to say "Man, war really sucks?" I doubt many would. As you said, D&D understand television storytelling, which is why GoT is such a hit, but they're pandering to the tits & dragon crowd.
I do love tits & dragons but there's so much more than that in the books. But I do think that's the main takeaway a lot of people will have when the show finally wraps up.
I would love to see David Simon's take on A Song of Ice and Fire.
That dude is going to steal Dawn and really screw things up!
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
"The North Remembers" has been bugging me too. And I don't buy for a second into the theory that the Umbers are playing Ramsay. Maybe I'll be plesantly surprised, but it seems Jon is going to have to hack through all his Uncle's former bannermen to get back Winterfell. I think D&D want to insert some stupid drama for the sake of dragging things out. That's why Jamie's done nothing since getting his hand hacked off.
I expect Osha will find a way to break Rickon out and die in the process, but that's about it. I also think Ramsay will probably be killed this season, and the North story will turn firmly to the Wall.
yukianderson
Member
Is pretty obvious that the one that will figth the mountain will be the returning Hound and the mountain will lose.
Moff
Member
absolutely, but TV shows and books work completely differently, that's why side characters are reduced to silly stereotypes when they are fleshed out completely in the books and why we don't get the war theme at the tower of joy. and this is not just about screentime, it's about how much the audience can process from so many important events in a huge fantasy world. that's why we got extra tits&dragons since season 1 while they omitted cool details we would all have loved to see on screen, me included. but the brain just needs to relax from time to time to process the most important plot points and that works best while seeing some sex and violence in a moment where the reader would put the book aside and think a moment about what they read. you can't just bombard the audience 10 hours a season with only important complicated and multi-themed and -layered scenes.
Cpt.Underpants
Member
Or Gregor will die first and Sandor will die from his wounds later on
Dash_Riprock
Member
Its the same with Lord of the Rings: Tolkien purists just can't admit that the plot and story of those books really needed some tightening/streamlining.
Every adaptation needs a crafty writer to figure out exactly how to translate the most important parts without undermining the point of the story. A straight translation would not only be impossible (unless you're down for 13-year-olds getting married off to warlords) but overwhelming in every sense.
But it is fair to criticize many of the choices D&D have made. It's clear that they didn't plan out the entire storyline beforehand and that's really limited how effective they can be in conveying what's happening.
Gravedigger theory
Broken Man being episode 7 is kind of strange, though. Are we really going to wait that long for Cercei's trial?
Dash_Riprock
Member
What REALLY piques my interest is just how much did GRRM tell them about the plots of books 6 and 7? Is there comprehensive outlines, or is it as basic as X character lives/dies and/or marries Y?
Moff
Member
I think he told them everything he knew. why would he want to keep any detail secret?
the question is how much D&D are willing to use and how often GRRM changes his mind after he told them. after all, writing is a creative process and a lot can change in the 40 years before he finishes his last book.
I hope we get a documentary on what they knew after the show is finished. My guess? It's the latter. Martin says that he doesn't have outlines for the events ahead, so I doubt he'd be able to give them more than "Dany is going to marry Hodor." D&D have to figure out how to get to that point.
Poimandres
Member
Yeah, Ramsay is going to cop it this season no doubt. I think Rickon is going to die as well, maybe in front of Jon so we have a reason to reallllly want Ramsay dead (lol). Gotta wrap shit up, which means killing any (and possibly every) unimportant character.
Arya magic door teleportation.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Didn't he literally say as he walked up "where's my sister?" I don't think its supposed to be a mystery that Lyanna is in the tower.
80s Bad Guy
Banned
Lol. Yeah, or "I can't believe they thought I was serious when I told them Samwell was azhor ahai"
FootballFan
Member
The fact that season one is so well written and directed still is mindblowing, that season is the blueprint for how it should have continued. Structurally speaking.
It is the lowest rated season of all, believe it or not.
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