It would be pretty cheap considering how Bloodraven doesn't amount to anything in the show. He also doesn't resurrect peopole, at least not as normal people again.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
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It would be pretty cheap considering how Bloodraven doesn't amount to anything in the show. He also doesn't resurrect peopole, at least not as normal people again.
CornBurrito
Member
I swear if there's more Dorne...
I want a good show but the writers need to shoehorn in some more bad POOOSEEY.
I want a good show but the writers need to shoehorn in some more bad POOOSEEY.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
I hope the show returns to Dorne. But only to show it war turn and in chaos. I'd hate for the sand snakes to be right and Doran wrong.
GRRM has consistently and vehemently opposed the idea that his series is nihilistic. Indeed, one of the more consistent themes is about doing good even when you know the world doesn't necessarily reward that -- in Brienne's story in AFFC, for instance, that's kind of the thematic core.
harriet the spy
Member
Posted by mistake in the unsullied thread (luckily wasn't spoiling anything). They don't seem bothered by it, but I think it's a bit dumb:
harriet the spy
Member
I used to think he was actually the great other (a bit dumb, but Melisander saw Bran as the great other, and assuming the white walkers were not completely evil, it felt like a possibility)
(of course Melisandre's track record is dubious at best)
Cesare Borgia
Banned
I'd imagine in the book it'll happen to Hodor when he's alone (in bed, for instance).
Definitely! And it's not going to end with a good versus evil battle, either, given how Martin's loathes that trope. People seem to forget how this series subverts tropes now that we have parallel hero's journeys going on in Essos and the North. But it's not going to culminate in Jon and Dany teaming up to kill the unholy White Walkers.
It's a story about hope, about how war doesn't solve any problems, and I can't wait to see how the narrative unfolds from this point onward.
Eh, I'm sure you could find inconsistencies like this in every story. It's also strange that Ned didn't tell Cat about Jon or that Ned didn't think of Jon's parentage at all. Sometimes you do have to twist reality slightly to make the narrative work.
harriet the spy
Member
Promise me, Ned! (to keep it a secret from everyone?)
I think Ned knows perfectly well Jon's parentage? or am I missing your point?
Ned definitely knew Jon's parentage. And yet, even though we see into his mind throughout A Game of Thrones, he never once thinks of who Jon's real parents are. And when Rhaegar pops into his head, he thinks how long it's been since he thought about him. That doesn't really make any sense.
And I do know he promised his sister...something. But it's a little suspect that he never told Cat. Jon's existence was a constant, daily insult to her and yet Ned never eased her mind by telling the truth? Plausible, sure, but it's still a stretch.
But the story is better for keeping Jon's parentage a mystery even though Martin had to bend some logic to do so.
harriet the spy
Member
Fair enough (I also wonder why it needed to be a huge secret; surely Robert was not that much of a tremendous asshole that he'd have killed the child of the love of his life? Even he was fathered by his worst enemy? Thinking about it more... maybe he would)
Damnit! The Lord of Light better not be Ramsay!
CornBurrito
Member
Ned always kept his promises. I think not telling Cat fits his character.
As for not thinking about it? We don't see every thought, and GRRM probably didn't want to include a MAJOR TWIST early on.
H.Cornerstone
Member
Keep in mind, the last thing Ned saw before running to get Jon was the killing of Rhaegar's two children as Robert hated Rhaegar, so yes, he would have killed Jon.
He also probably get it secret because Jon would then be the true heir of the iron throne and would then cause Targaryen sympathizers wanting to raise him to the throne and a bunch of other conflict I am sure Ned didn't want to deal with. And while he could have probably don't Catelyn, it was probably for the best he didn't.
No, Ned always puts family above duty. You could argue that Ned puts his sister above his wife, which is true, but seeing how upset Cat gets, you would think he would confide in her. I'm not saying it's a huge problem but Ned doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would happily torture his wife for 14 years.
And I don't think any of these decisions are bad, I'm just pointing out how sometimes writers take shortcuts. Even Martin does it for time to time.
Varys' fear makes sense now.
If Ned put his family above duty he never would have left Winterfell to be Hand of the King.
Ned wouldn't tell Cat because Ned thinks like Ned. To Ned it's a dishonour, a betrayal of your king, a treason. The promise is a burden he chose to bear, and so he should bear it whole and alone, not thrust it upon another who had no choice in the matter, forcing her to choose between loyalty to her king or Lord husband.
I don't remember his name being a big mystery at Winterfell. Do they even bring it up?
harriet the spy
Member
I think Old Nan (his great grandmother or something) has no idea where the name comes from.
"Theon Greyjoy had once commmented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name. Old Nan had cackled like a hen when Bran told her that, and confessed that Hodor's real name was Walder. No one knew where 'Hoder' had come from, she said, but when he started saying it, they started calling him by it. It was the only word he had"
CornBurrito
Member
He wasn't happy about keeping it from Cat.
Which is also why book Catelyn is so terrible. Ned doesn't want to be Hand but she convinces him otherwise despite the Tully words being Family, Duty, Honour. They are in that order for a reason Catelyn!
There's also the fact that he would understandably be intensely paranoid of any small hint of information sparking a rumor and floating on down to Kings Landing. He himself didn't trust Robert's sanity on the matter. "Dragon spawn" haunted him.
Azor Ahai's legendary sword is called "Lightbringer", the Latin word for which is "Lucifer". There's plenty of reason to be wary of the Lord of Light.
theory is up on YouTube where the guy says it wasn't bran who fucked up hodor he already warged into present hodor it was the other guy who when he died tried to shift I to young hodor and wasn't successful but did enough to implant the hold the door part . Makes sense d and a have said the ww showed up too early so makes sense the blood raven is caught showing bran something and then realizes time is up and tries to warg into hodor to help bran etc but fails . Oh course time loops time travel blah blah .
That's pretty much what I had assumed, because on the show Bran seemed really passive throughout the entire thing, not like he was trying to warg into young Hodor. It'll be interesting to see if we ever get a statement on the director's/writers' intent.
I'm sure the exact mechanics of the process will be spelled out a lot more clearly in the book, but yeah, right now I'm leaning towards Hodor's psyche working through the link with Bran to impress itself on his young self in his final panic. Sort of like John/Ghost I guess. Warging does seem to be a two way street to some degree..
Since GRRM confirmed that the world of A Song of Ice and Fire is round, there's been a theory that due to Westeros and the Far East sharing a suspiciously similar story about a long night with demons who were defeated by a hero with a flaming sword and then afterwards a wall/citadels were built to keep them out, it's possible that if you went far enough you would discover that The Grey Waste and The Lands of Always Winter, and thus the Far East of Essos and Far North of Westeros, are connected.
I'm pretty sure that Martin in an interview years back said this wasn't the case, though nevertheless I do believe there will be some sort of revelation about how two places seemingly on the other side of the world to each other have the exact same fucking story. That whole "To go North you must go South. To reach the west you must go east" thing will surely play a part.
Inb4 The Five Forts and The Wall are one and the same
Inb4 Westeros and Essos see each other as the "Others"
Veritigo_X
Member
There have been people who sailed west from Westeros to see what's there but never return. I want to say some Lannister might've done it? If the continents were actually connected like that they probably would've figured that out pretty quickly and not think of sailing west as a death sentence.
That is because it isn't in any of the proper books.
It is part of the World Book that is filled with references and homages to other works that it completely lessens the impact of whatever original material exists. How can the Five Forts or whatever other place be taken seriously when it is sitting next to straight rips from Lovecraft.
Martin turned his wider world into a joke with that garbage. At best it is unfiltered cultural appropriation at its worst it is just racist trash.
CopperPuppy
Member
Wait, what? Care to elaborate? First time I've heard this opinion of TWOIAF. As a longtime fan of the novels, I love poring over it. Didn't know I was indulging in a racist, culture-appropriating piece of trash.
Also, see above. I'm very familiar with all of the Five Forts theories - most started with TLOIAF.
I completely agree with this, but also think that the show, by and large, takes a pretty nihilist reading of the source. If Brienne in Feast was where GRRM came out and shouted the main theme of his story at readers, D&D's parallel moment was Tyrion's "crush the beetles" speech before the trial by combat.
A big part of why season 5 felt so bad was that all of the changes they made were in a pretty consistently nihilist, hopeless direction, and so their net effect on the story was just despair.
Dusk Soldier
Member
weak men will never write scenes for Dorne again.
Forsaken82
Member
It's ONLY a twist because it was information held back... If GRRM decided to reveal this information early on, it wouldn't be a twist.
Textured Monk
Member
If the Great Other really is associated with the White Walkers (cold, darkness - after the last ep maybe worshipped by/gave the idea to the Children) they're both at least tremendous cosmic assholes.
That's true for every plot twist in every creative work. Martin leaves out the answer to mysteries but he includes enough hints for clever readers to figure things out. He's devious without being cheap or manipulative.
Not every, only the ones that involve surprising/shocking information. There are plenty of other types of plot twists, even ones used in the same story which don't rely on withheld information. Bran getting throw off the tower was an unexpected twist, but there was nothing held back. Jaime just decided to do it. Same with Ned's death. There wasn't any information being held back, not even from the perspective of the offenders, because no one expected Joffery to just mess things up by being an impulsive turd.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Timeline_of_major_events
Now I'm a little confused about when the White Walkers were created. According to this timeline, the Long Night happened after the Pact, and before the Andal invasion. Assuming the Children created the Others, which caused the Long Night, what enemy did the Children have at the time if they were already at peace with the First Men?
Now I'm a little confused about when the White Walkers were created. According to this timeline, the Long Night happened after the Pact, and before the Andal invasion. Assuming the Children created the Others, which caused the Long Night, what enemy did the Children have at the time if they were already at peace with the First Men?
Blue Ninja
Member
Maybe the White Walkers were driven off first, only to come back with a vengeance during the long night.
I suspect we'll keep having to play connect-the-dots on this one.
I think trying too hard to connect the mythos and history detailed in the books with new revelations on the show is a fool's errand. The show's mythos and history is clearly much more streamlined and simplified. The character of the "Night King" who is on the show doesn't even exist in the books as far as we know. There might be a leadership among the Others, but it's not something the books have gone into. The show clearly needed an iconic visual representation of the enemy for audiences, so they went in that direction.
Is it likely that the Children of the Forest created the Others in the books as well? Absolutely. But the details of that, the how and the why, and as a consequence the way it fits into the timeline, is likely very different.
Is it likely that the Children of the Forest created the Others in the books as well? Absolutely. But the details of that, the how and the why, and as a consequence the way it fits into the timeline, is likely very different.
Timelines makes sense given that the Child (Leaf?) on the show clearly regrets having created the so-called Night King. It's possible the Children created the Others, which event either fizzled *or* caused The Pact. Then the Others went dormant, biding power for a few thousand years, before consolidating enough to mount their invasion.
Is there anything to indicate that The Long Night makes the first appearance of the Others? Or was it just the first Serious incursion of them?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
The historical timeline of the show is the same, though, as far as I can tell.
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-o...isode-5/histories/3/westeros-through-the-ages
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-o...isode-5/histories/3/westeros-through-the-ages
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Possibly, yes.
As far as anyone in the history books can tell, the Others came from the Lands of Always Winter. But as we see, history is inaccurate since written records weren't kept until the time of the Andals.
Not unlike Yahweh then.
mehrmantrout
Member
UK gaffers Iwan Rheon is on This Morning now
Edit it was nothing
Edit it was nothing
Blue Ninja
Member
I think one difference is they cut the last King Jahaerys, instead skipping straight over to the Mad King.
There is no doubt that the Lands of Ice and Fire was never expected to be a stand alone book but rather part of the World Book which like almot everything Martin writes was continually delayed. And with the popularity of the show his publisher had to put out something. See The Wit and Wisdom of Tyrion Lannister.
If you read all the sections on Yi-Ti it is clearly a fictional version of China which is alright but makes the world less exciting. Martin already ripped off Mongol culture for his Dothraki and he does the same again, ripping from the real world for the rest of Essos. OK fine, it is shallow but not too troubling.
But then we get to his description of Sothoryos and it is clear it is his fictional Africa which he describes
Black people described as savages, barbarians and cannibals. Mentally inferior to the civilised world. It is cheap filler and there is no need for it to exist. He chose to create Sothoryos while having nothing interesting to say about it apart from old racist tropes.
And there is the real issue with the World book. It is a real world mirror filled with typical tropes that are so banal and generic that they turn the imagined world from the main books into a cartoon.
DKehoe
Member
World of Ice and Fire also says that there was an Elmo, Grover and Kermit Tully. I realise he has always made references with some of his names but that just felt more than a little on the nose. I wonder how much of that stuff was Elio and Linda.
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