Dynamite Shikoku
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Can't wait til the waif is revealed as syrio and arya is revealed as jaqen
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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This is one case where all the weird nonsensical theories make more sense than taking it straightforward.
Because for one reason, she was stabbed several times in the stomach and should now be dead.
For another, it's at odds with how she acted the episode before and what she obviously should have been expecting. Arya has never been portrayed as that much of an idiot before. She has to know the faceless men would be out for her and she knows they can change faces. Every weird theory makes more sense than Arya not considering this.
Because for one reason, she was stabbed several times in the stomach and should now be dead.
For another, it's at odds with how she acted the episode before and what she obviously should have been expecting. Arya has never been portrayed as that much of an idiot before. She has to know the faceless men would be out for her and she knows they can change faces. Every weird theory makes more sense than Arya not considering this.
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
Arya and Tywin at Harrenhal is widely regarded as one of the best show-original things in the series. I know I'm not alone here. It's the best kind of TV, where characters get to play off each other in ways that make every scene alive with tension.
"Why couldn't those scenes be done with Roose" is a weird question considering how much Charles Dance added to those scenes. What they had was great already, and going back to the book isn't automatically the best way to fix any problems in the narrative. The real question is what could they have done to make this subplot seem less at odds with Arya's arc in the long run. The answer, like a lot of awkward things in this show, is that they just needed to justify her actions a bit more. But I don't think it's that bad in the grand scheme of things.
The real poor choice was keeping the list but never establishing proper rules about who she adds or why. It's become a total mess in the past few years, with people appearing and disappearing at random. Do they expect us to just forget that Melisandre was ever on the list?
This was a fantastic episode. It's not just full of action, but also the heavy tension of non-combatants waiting to die while a battle rages on outside, and with a bit of comedy thrown in as well. Is it the same as the book? No. Does that particularly matter? Not when the result is this good.
Thinking about this episode makes me sad that GRRM didn't write any more episodes after season 4. He has such a good handle on how to write the TV versions of the characters. Some of the best scenes in this episode have no basis in the book at all.
You'll have to be more specific.
This I'll agree with. Jon's arc became vague and hard to follow in the show, when the key points should have been very easy to hit. It's not like they really changed the major plot points, they just presented them poorly.
And those are my thoughts for now!
After stumbling into a thread on the Asoiaf forum around 7 years back where people were seriously discussing the possibility of Tyrion being the child of Cersei and Jamie, I've intentionally distanced myself away from most Asoiaf discussions, this weeks flood of ridiculous Arya theories were a reminder why. I mean yeah, I can believe that some sort of trickery is going on, but some of these theories are going way over the edge.
Battle of Blackwater I think had some wonderful adaptation changes, namely showing Stannis on the front lines. It was a great juxtaposition to Joff who was meekly hiding, and went a way to illustrate how different they are/would be as kings. It felt like GRRM was using the episode to elaborate on his own story.
As much as I whinge about things I still love the show. Like a lot of adaptations it's just bloody good seeing locations/characters/languages and scenes. Just a shame when they fuck up when the source material is brilliant.
Last episode one of the guys Mcshane was chatting to shouted down, "ta". That made me smile much more than it should have.
wesleyshark
Banned
He's a Lannister.
In the show Arya adds Tywin to the list at some point after she met him but I can't recall why, probably related to the tortures in Harrenhal, is there where she adds The Mountain.
In the books I have no idea, I think she doesn't even add him.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Doesn't she add Tywin after the Red Wedding?
Roose Bolton is a vampire!
Tywin masterminding the red Wedding is basically a state secret, not even Cersei knows, I don't think even Roose or Walder fully knew, only Tyrion and Tywin. She adds Walder Frey after the Wedding.
Forsaken82
Member
You know what else is widely regarded? That Season 2 is one of if not THE worst season of the show. I assume most people look at season 5 as the worst lately, but Hardhome is still one of the best episodes the show has had (and was actually a decent deviation from the source)
I am not disagreeing with you on the Arya Tywin scenes ... However, you are assuming that Michael McElhatton couldn't have added the same to those scenes, to which I don't completely agree. The only reason the show went the route they did was because they werent ready to spend more money on a supporting actor that would be on the show for 4 more seasons. In their eyes it was an unnecessary addition to the season so they changed it, and as I said, even though it worked in those scenes, it was one of many decisions that hurt her story arc.
As for the Blackwater episode, like i said, that is entirely subjective. I even agreed it was a decent episode. Being a decent episode however doesn't mean it's better than the book. The deviations they made in the episode isn't what made the episode stand out.
Regarding Shae, I really don't know what needs to be added... She's not a character we follow much in the books and I think it's for the better, especially if she ended up being written similarly to how she was on the show. She was just super annoying. Again, less is more.
Honestly, it seems like you aren't arguing that the changes were better... but rather that certain additions didn't suck. These are two completely different things.
BuggyDClown
Member
She adds him because he sent armies after her brother and mother.
She knows about it because she was in the room serving him in harenhall.
Watch the scene with jaqen haghar she runs to him and tells him he must kill tywin for this reason. Its also why she threatens his name.
Cersei, Joffrey, Pycelle and Tyrion all knew. They were in the same meeting room together when Tywin remarks how he won Joffrey's war for him. Joffrey gets all bitchy then Tywin's like "go the fuck to sleep".
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
Quoting this part first of all, because it's important to clarify: What I'm arguing is that the changes made in adapting season 2 resulted in a better TV season than if they'd stuck more rigidly to the book.
I'm not comparing the book and TV show in terms of quality, just in terms of which choices are better for which medium.
Firstly, Roose Bolton already appeared in four episodes of season 2. He was introduced as part of Robb's storyline, so they could set up a long game of him turning out to be involved in the Red Wedding (and Ramsay being his son, after a year of him being presented as just a mysterious torturer).
One of many reasons the Tywin/Arya scenes work is that we're already familiar with Tywin - he didn't come out of nowhere, we have a relation with him as viewers, and finding out about this other side to him adds a lot of depth to his character that stays with him throughout the subsequent seasons. We also get to find out a bit about his relationships with his children, who we're very familiar with already. It's not our introduction to Tywin, but an additional layer to him.
In contrast, if Roose Bolton had been introduced through this story arc, it would have weakened him as a character, because he would have been established as this type of kindly person. Remember that on TV, you can't just be told lots of things about him through flashbacks. We only believe what we see, and they made a smart choice in keeping him out of this and presenting him as a shrewd military adviser first and foremost.
If they'd already introduced Roose Bolton in season 1, it might have worked. But there's a reason they didn't introduce thousands of characters in season 1, and it's not just budget.
Again, just to be absolutely clear: Not arguing it's better than the book, just that it was a better TV episode than a straightforward adaptation would have been. Books and TV have different needs.
But this I disagree with completely. The deviations are absolutely what made this episode stand out. In particular, the scene with Cersei almost poisoning Tommen in order to save him from a worse fate is powerful stuff, and interesting to contrast with what we're seeing in their subplot now.
But at this point we'd have to agree to disagree.
Again, agree to disagree. Certain things bothered me about Shae in the TV show (she's a rather different character but her end point was the same, and it didn't feel adequately tied up), but in season 2 I really enjoyed how she was fleshed out and became another viewpoint character in King's Landing. "Blackwater" is a great example, in fact - her scene with Cersei was fantastic. ("From Lorathi commoner to the Red Keep in 10 years, all without learning how to curtsy" lol)
In general, the point of view I come from is, am I enjoying what I'm watching? Is it compelling TV that feels like it's presenting interesting characters interacting in interesting ways and building up a compelling story? If so, then they made good choices. If those choices aren't the same as the book, then they were good adaptation choices.
Fucking confirmed.
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
I also want to add regarding Hardhome: As an action episode, it obviously blows Blackwater out of the (black)water. The budget was much higher and they made something really spectacular and impressive.
Apart from that, it's clearly worse than Blackwater. What even happened apart from the battle? Excluding the non-Jon storylines (which were mostly in a holding pattern), there was that one scene with the wildling council where that one really cool woman was introduced who later died in the same episode. Later, they got on the boats and the Night King posed and we saw how doomed everyone was. Overall, we got to see first-hand just how big a threat the White Walkers are, which (don't get me wrong) is very important if they're being set up as the main villains.
But Blackwater had way more to it than that. It wasn't just a battle happening, it was the stuff happening around the battle, the story within the story. lt was an examination of all these characters we know and the different ways they're affected by a battle turning up on their doorstep (or, in Stannis and Davos's case, turning up with the battle). Every scene was great drama and really added something to the characters.
Your mileage may vary (and probably does), but for my taste, it's definitely Blackwater that wins.
Apart from that, it's clearly worse than Blackwater. What even happened apart from the battle? Excluding the non-Jon storylines (which were mostly in a holding pattern), there was that one scene with the wildling council where that one really cool woman was introduced who later died in the same episode. Later, they got on the boats and the Night King posed and we saw how doomed everyone was. Overall, we got to see first-hand just how big a threat the White Walkers are, which (don't get me wrong) is very important if they're being set up as the main villains.
But Blackwater had way more to it than that. It wasn't just a battle happening, it was the stuff happening around the battle, the story within the story. lt was an examination of all these characters we know and the different ways they're affected by a battle turning up on their doorstep (or, in Stannis and Davos's case, turning up with the battle). Every scene was great drama and really added something to the characters.
Your mileage may vary (and probably does), but for my taste, it's definitely Blackwater that wins.
BuggyDClown
Member
To be fair he's a walking abomination now, but I'm fairly certain you mean his third incarnation... like when he still had a face to show.
Walder acted with direct reassurances from Tywin. Pretty sure it was Tywin who later remarked Walder never would have acted alone. It stands to reason Roose was informed about the specifics as well, considering he became warden of the North, and he was directly told by Jaime to tell Robb "The Lannisters send their regards." Everyone at the small council meeting probably knew- Joffrey said to send a message back to Frey, Cersei probably isn't that oblivious, and Varys and Pycelle were also there.
Yeah, he has everything. Massive, weathered, physically imposing, brutish. If only he wasn't a complete asshole in real life.
Dash_Riprock
Member
What do you mean?
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
I was under the impression Jaime never knew about the red wedding plan. I don't think Roose ever mention the red wedding plan to Jaime when he was at Harrenhal. Since Roose told Jaime to give his regard to Tywin, Jaime answered back to Roose to tell Robb "the Lannister send their regards".
Of course Roose already made the red wedding plan with Tywin and Walder at this point. But I don't think it was ever mention to Jaime. It was meant as a sarcastic comment.
Yeah Jaime definitely didn't know about the Red Wedding plan.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
i'm sure this has been discussed before, but how does the waif, and probably the faceless men in general, make sense on the show? it's been a long time since i read the books, but i remember there being other people at the headquarters, and probably some hints at what was going on. on the show, there are apparently two people working there, and one of them is grossly incompetent. also not sure why jaqen keeps wearing that face even when arya is not around (though this is probably just for the sake of budget and simplicity). the waif seems like a total brat so it's not really clear why she is training arya, and it seems like she should still be in the phase of getting hit repeatedly with a stick.
It doesn't make sense and I think they have made the faceless men seem like losers
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
I'm holding out hope that we'll get some kind of coherent explanation this week, but I fear we're just meant to accept what we've been shown so far and assume the Waif represents someone who Jaqen trained and approved of and Arya failed to meet that standard. Which is...tenuous, to say the least.
Oldest Snake
Member
Any particular reason people are expecting episode 8 to be a biggie? They hyped up the BotB as this season's Hardhome but we know that's in episode 9, not 8.
Peter Ian Staker
Member
I cannot remember episode 8 being a slower setup episode in any previous season.
The last 2 episodes were mostly setup. We should start seeing some pay-off right about now.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
I would be cool with the show toning down the whole going for shock value thing. It's been absolutely terrible these last couple seasons.
That IS the show though, stopping that would be getting rid of a massive part of its appeal.
elrechazado
Banned
Pfft - try tyrion the time traveling fetus if you want good theories
Ep8 is the sequel to Ep7, where it is likely all the setup will be resolved before the Battle of the Bastards in Ep9.
So we should be getting....
- Hound vs Brotherhood
- Riverrun siege
- Arya vs Waif
and based on the preview
- Cersei and ZomMt vs the Sparrows
For a 59 minute episode, that should be lots of entertainment and could have some real badass scenes. It's exciting!
-Pyromaniac-
Member
hope you guys are ready for hastily resolved plots and some unneccesary stretching out
it's guaranteed.
Fixed.
Steelyuhas
Member
New Episode Tonight: No One
In the bedroom? Not soon enough.
I feel like it is remarkably oblivious to insist Jaime didn't know anything when Roose is the one to let him go in the first place without seemingly having a motive. He probably didn't know for sure because it is unlikely Roose told him directly, but he had to suspect something was up.
Steelyuhas
Member
Shout out to the synopses this year approaching Mad Men levels of trolling.
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