Or maybe it's hard to create a world this dense? He's finished plenty of books in the last forty years so I'm not sure why you think he can't finish stories.
Or it means the stories have diverged.
*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 Offseason Thread
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Or maybe it's hard to create a world this dense? He's finished plenty of books in the last forty years so I'm not sure why you think he can't finish stories.
Or it means the stories have diverged.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
I get the impression that Sansa betraying Jon is more of a "lean in!" head canon kinda thing. It doesn't really make any sense, and given the endgame being a WW invasion would be a disastrously bad decision.
I can't imagine that ending any way but with Jon having to flee with a tiny remnant of an army again and having to connect with Dany to be relevant to anything again.
Meanwhile LF and Sansa would be brutally slaughtered by the WW's swarming them. Finally Sansa coming into her own! Uh... Ok.
lol I forgot how fucking insufferably horrible Sansa used to be. Arya has always been so awesome.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
The show has gone in a different direction. I wouldn't call him unimportant given that he seems poised to be the next king of Westeros.
Okay I really hate Sansa again thanks.
Yes that too. It would be interesting to have 2 very different end games, bigger than the differences we already have.
Human Trashcan
Banned
She was a child raised on lies about chivalry and courtly life. A lot of negative reaction to Sansa is basically "she's such a girl" that goes unexamined.
Meanwhile, now Sansa is pretty awesome (and Arya with her temper would never have survived Sansa's ordeals in KL) and Arya is a sociopath.
We're meant to think about this stuff.
mugoldeneagle03
Member
Regarding all the Sansa talk:
I think the show is focusing less on trying to fuck over Jon and more of buying into Littlefingers big plan, while thinking she's smart enough to beat him at his own game.
Sadly (though I still dont care for the character) I think it will backfire and get her killed. Seems to always happen to characters who think they're ahead of the game.
I think the show is focusing less on trying to fuck over Jon and more of buying into Littlefingers big plan, while thinking she's smart enough to beat him at his own game.
Sadly (though I still dont care for the character) I think it will backfire and get her killed. Seems to always happen to characters who think they're ahead of the game.
Oberyn, Rob, etc.
Oh jesus christ spare me the snobbery, I've read the books too. I still think Sansa was annoying.
cj_iwakura
Member
I think Griff will be a very big deal in the books, and strikes me as more interesting than the easy conflict of J. Targaryen.
I went off about the ladies of this show in the other thread, but since I'm finished with the season now, I'll continue to gush on them here because yo:
I completely forgot to mention ChibiMormont, She Who Steals Scenes. Low key one of the coolest additions to the show this year.
There's not enough of the Queen in the North in this thread yet:
I completely forgot to mention ChibiMormont, She Who Steals Scenes. Low key one of the coolest additions to the show this year.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
why would the northern lords even think to give sansa any credit for the knights of the vale showing up? i doubt there is any good reason for them to credit her instead of sweetrobin, who actually commanded them to come to sansa's aid.
Human Trashcan
Banned
I'm sorry if that came off wrong, I'm not trying to start a fight. I think Martin does things with his characters deliberately and it's more interesting to look at why that is and what it says about them and the world. We've seen Sansa grow from a naive, bratty child to a pretty shrewd player of the game. In a way, she's the audience who's used to fantasy cliches of handsome princes etc, until they all come crashing down around her.
And anyone who still thinks Arya is awesome isn't really looking at what GRRM is saying about the personal cost of vengeance as a life goal (just look at Lady Stoneheart for the ultimate example, but there are plenty others. We just had a good run on the show of Sansa, Cersei and Arya all smirking as they get their revenge. It's corrosive.)
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
It's more like, they are cutting stuff short. Griff is probably going to end marrying Sansa and there is going to be an extended plot with both Targaryens battling it out, along with the Tyrells, Tarly's, Vale, Dorne, and remaining Ironborn. It's a lot more complicated.
Human Trashcan
Banned
Re: Faegon (don't believe he's the real deal for a second folks - he's a Blackfyre), he has to be important for being inserted into the mix so late in the game, and being given quite a lot of attention. I think he might even take KL, and we could potentially end up with a very unfortunate war between, essentially, two "good" factions. All while the real threat is coming from beyond the wall.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
In what way? Last time people said that, she got horse traded to the Boltons without her having a clue.
Now she's apparently content to conspire with Littlefinger and follow him down the track he's laid out for her (According to the actress at least) because she's jealous.
How is being constantly manipulated by Littlefinger evidence of character growth?
Cesare Borgia
Banned
I agree 100%. His main characters are not cardboard. Sansa is one of the many characters he used to deconstruct various fantasy tropes, in terms of chivalry and the fairy tales that hide the truth of medieval savagery.
This isn't some cheap story where characters bounce from event to event without emotional impact. One of the frustrating things about Tyrion/Dance criticisms is the idea that him being different and "too depressing" is a legitimate criticism. He just killed his father and love, what should he be? If you want no emotional development or consequences...well, there's the show.
Because she sent for the Knights of the Vale? If not for her (and Baelish), the North would still be ruled by Ramsay.
Jon is a bastard-born deserter of the Night's Watch who almost got himself and everyone he commanded killed because A) He didn't bother to recruit all the houses and B) He was severely undermanned and C) He charged when he should have forced Ramsay to attack first. He was lucky. No one respected Jon before the battle (the Mormont's joined because of Davos, the Wildings joined because of the Tormmund, every other house ignored them) so I have no idea why he's their king now.
What did he do to earn their respect? At least Sansa had a winning strategy and stuck to her plan.
Are there people here who've read the books who think the characters are cardboard?
John Dunbar
correct about everything
but what i am saying is why would they see it that way, and why would you expect them to?
sweetrobin commanded them to go to the north
littlefinger manipulated sweetrobin to command them to do so (though the northern lords probably have no way of knowing this)
sansa... told them to come after they had already arrived? ok, thanks, i guess?
Human Trashcan
Banned
iirc she had some pretty strong misgivings about being married off to Ramsay, but it's not like she really had a choice.
And speculation about S7 at this point is just that - speculation, so idk. But over the course of this entire season she's pretty much been on top of shit. She consistently proved to be smarter than Jon and just as capable a leader, but she keeps on being marginalized by the men. That isn't the show failing, that is commentary.
Saying she's just being manipulated by LF is giving her short thrift, too. If she hadn't sent that bird, they would've lost the battle of the bastards. Yes, it's what LF wanted, but that doesn't mean Sansa owes him anything. She rejected him. Also consider that he seems to be the only man in her life who's ever even remotely acknowledged her capabilities. Yeah, he's a super shitty douchebag, but she doesn't have a lot else to draw from. Jon said some nice things to her but when push came to shove didn't even TRY to make a case for her as lady of Winterfell, which is really shitty of him imo. She's basically had no good men in her life who really acknowledged and respected her, and the reason LF played her so well is because he mixed in his manipulations with genuine affection and some twisted form of respect, however creepy his intentions were. (as an aside, I guess I believe him when he says he really didn't know Ramsay was a genuine monster, even though that is a bit hard to believe for a man with his reach, and again, it's also entirely possible he just didn't care that much, as long as it got him closer to his goals.)
I feel like the books are focused on "the dragon has three heads" and that Dany's dragons will need riders, likely Targaryens or Blackfyres. The show doesn't care about having three Targs and it seems like Dany more or less leads all three dragons into battle from Drogon's back. I'd like to think Aegon will play a decent part in the books, but who knows.
Yeah that makes sense. But I also think Sam is going to discover a fuller version of the prophecy in the Old Town library and then the whole 3 dragon riders stuff will become more important, maybe.
SimpleDesign
Member
Probably because Sansa has no skills whatsoever when it comes to leadership. Agreeing to be traded off to marry into the family that massacred hers and trusting the man that betrayed her father over her own blood makes her a moron.
You think the North should rally behind her when she hasn't done anything herself? I mean, besides sending a letter to her moms old friend that wants to bed her. I could see her stabbing Jon in the back because of her sense of entitlement.
You think the North should rally behind her when she hasn't done anything herself? I mean, besides sending a letter to her moms old friend that wants to bed her. I could see her stabbing Jon in the back because of her sense of entitlement.
Sansa learned how to "play the game" from the horrible people that abused her for so long. The entire point of her leading up to the Battle of the Bastards was her superior understanding of Ramsay and how he would behave on the field. To that end, she played the one card she will likely ever be dealt as a strategist with any military value.
Hell, in BotB, she even tells Jon that she has nothing to add to battle strategy.
Her role moving forward, for better or worse, is to either protect Jon from another man she understands better than anyone or be seduced by his promises of power.
Hell, in BotB, she even tells Jon that she has nothing to add to battle strategy.
Her role moving forward, for better or worse, is to either protect Jon from another man she understands better than anyone or be seduced by his promises of power.
SimpleDesign
Member
She had two cards, one of which was that she was offered the fucking knights of the vale. Might have been good to share that with her brother instead of being manipulated by Littlefinger. So much growth and development.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Yeah. She played the game great there.
She doesn't even try to lead. She shouted at one guy and got dressed down, and then got mad that Jon didn't read her mind.
Commentary on what? Nobody considers her a leader because she hasn't attempted to lead. In a world where Cerci and Dany and the Sand Snakes exist, what exactly is the commentary here? Sansa is Azor?
Really? LF mobilized the knights and came up "to save the day". He likely would've come regardless. Sansa would've been just as grateful if he showed up unbidden to save her.
She didn't reject him though. She basically put that conversation on hold.
Right before he sold her off to the Boltons. It's almost as if he told her what she wanted to hear.
"Guys she knew Ramsay really well! Queen in the North!"
Do you really believe that LF respects Sansa and that he's just not creeping on her because she looks like Cat?
PHOENIXZERO
Member
I'm going to expect Sansa ends up playing along with Littlefinger, allowing him to think she's on his side when he to pushes for betraying Jon but will turn on Littlefinger instead, if it's found out that Jon isn't actually her brother that could change things too IMO. Or Arya, after taking care of business in Kings Landing or well Jaime assisting in doing it, learns what Littlefinger goes to kill him herself though it seems more suitable for Sansa, either way even if it doesn't happen in the books, I'm sure they're going to set up a reunion.
Either way, Jon's biggest concern isn't going to be the Iron Throne it's going to be the white walkers, Dany could probably take over the south in that time given how huge her army is and then sets out to go North to reclaim it instead of the North coming to them again when the white walker shit goes down.
/ramble
Aegon would still be an odd naming choice since Aegon in the show did exist, I mean they have mentioned Aegon being Rhaegar and Elia's son right? Aemon or Jaehaerys makes more sense.
Either way, Jon's biggest concern isn't going to be the Iron Throne it's going to be the white walkers, Dany could probably take over the south in that time given how huge her army is and then sets out to go North to reclaim it instead of the North coming to them again when the white walker shit goes down.
/ramble
Aegon would still be an odd naming choice since Aegon in the show did exist, I mean they have mentioned Aegon being Rhaegar and Elia's son right? Aemon or Jaehaerys makes more sense.
Human Trashcan
Banned
How did she have a choice in being sold off to Ramsay?
Also the knights of the vale showed up because she sent that letter. I'm not sure why you're trying to argue otherwise. The show literally spells it out in the narrative (well, visually, but surely you don't need something actually literally said out loud).
And again, I feel like I'm repeating myself: Littlefinger is an EXCEPTIONAL manipulator. Sansa hasn't had a father figure, or anyone who gives a shit about her, in her life since her father died. Except Littlefinger. He preys on her insecurities. He convinced her the marriage to Ramsay would be alright because he'd convinced her for so long he had her best interests at heart. Basically going "lol what a dumbass she got manipulated!" is exceptionally ungenerous considering like, her entire life since the start of the series.
And Jon himself said "You're the lady of Winterfell", so again, you're arguing against what the show is directly saying? Lots of bad faith stuff here.
Also the knights of the vale showed up because she sent that letter. I'm not sure why you're trying to argue otherwise. The show literally spells it out in the narrative (well, visually, but surely you don't need something actually literally said out loud).
And again, I feel like I'm repeating myself: Littlefinger is an EXCEPTIONAL manipulator. Sansa hasn't had a father figure, or anyone who gives a shit about her, in her life since her father died. Except Littlefinger. He preys on her insecurities. He convinced her the marriage to Ramsay would be alright because he'd convinced her for so long he had her best interests at heart. Basically going "lol what a dumbass she got manipulated!" is exceptionally ungenerous considering like, her entire life since the start of the series.
And Jon himself said "You're the lady of Winterfell", so again, you're arguing against what the show is directly saying? Lots of bad faith stuff here.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
i think that littlefinger being a manipulator pretty much sums up why the letter was pretty irrelevant. assuming for a second that littlefinger was actually truthful about wanting sansa and the iron throne (something that remains to be seen), how would letting jon and sansa lose that battle help him? he probably counted on sansa sending that letter to make himself look like a saviour, but the knights of the vale would have probably come anyway to save the day.
if sansa had manipulated sweetrobin or in some other way arranged for the knights of the vale to come to the north, she would deserve tons of credit. but she didn't even know about the plan until they had already arrived. the freshest army in westeros is going to come to the north and then not fight or otherwise get involved? please.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I 100% would not be upset if they make her a major character somehow. Just need more.
Byakuya769
Member
Definitely not a targ. Definitely a Blackfyre (bastard offshoots from the Targs that waged several attempts to take over). Check out the Dunc and Egg novellas for some background. Really interesting stuff.
Human Trashcan
Banned
But that's not supported by the text. He tells Sansa she can ask for his help > she asks for his help > he comes. That's what the show tells us. Occam's razor. There's no reason to assume there's more at play, that's just reading things into the text that aren't there. The implication of the letter being sent is exactly what we see.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
the text is mainly rubbish here, so eh. more fun to speculate.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
She is an amazing character, but I can't see much they can do with her. Maybe her have her warn Jon if the show does do a stupid Jealous Sansa story.
They could have her meet Olena, and Olena loves her and adopts her.
Then Mormont tells her to piss off with that living in the South crap.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
Sansa's story in the show is a mess. They still haven't verified whether she is a dumb but good like every other Stark or if she's cunning but evil like everyone else who plays the game. The show probably wants us to believe that she's cunning but good, however that's an impossible situation after this season.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I would love a scene where she makes Dany look like a clown.
Also with that said, does Dany even understand Westerosi politics? Or is the assumption that Tyrion is filling her in on the goings on. I imagine her being pretty confused that there's a king in the north and cersei as queen. Or is she knowledgable about things going on in Westeros. I think they've implied that she isn't.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Exactly.
I explained why. LF likely would've come anyway since he'd already decided to bring the knights up to Winterfell before he knew anything about Sansa or Jon's plans.
Sansa writing that letter gives him a reason to legitimately be there, but he was there with his force ready to attack anyway.
That's not taking away from Sansa. That's what was happening. This wasn't a shrewd military move by Sansa.
Yes, and that's why I don't see her as having a particularly strong character arc. Does she have a good reason for plotting against Jon?
Nope.
She's jealous. That's the sole motivation. A motivation planted in her mind by Littlefinger to help him gain the north. If she actually does that, she's the same petty girl that wanted to marry Joffrey. Not an astute player of the game since she'll have gotten nothing she wants and given LF everything he wanted.
Bad faith? Come on now.
Try to examine that sequence from Jon's perspective. He didn't know if he'd have any support at all going in to that feast. He certainly wasn't expecting them to wholeheartedly accept him or for them to rally to him as their king.
He was gobsmakced. He looked to Sansa and she smiled and nodded. At what point would him standing up and saying "That's nice and all, but Sansa is smarter than me because she wrote a letter and kept it secret from everyone!" have been a grand idea?
Also Sansa said he should be lord of Winterfell first. They were trading niceties.
bengraven
Member
It's really funny that 100% of the people watching the show believe Sansa is apologetic to Jon and happy to see him crowned king.
And yet Sophie and the DDs are saying she's actually distrusting of him and needs to watch him because he'll snap on her or something, which is the last thing we're seeing on the screen.
I can understand that look LF and her share could be a look of "I warned you, Sansa" but I interpreted it as "you think I need you, but I'm actually pretty comfy where I'm at".
And yet Sophie and the DDs are saying she's actually distrusting of him and needs to watch him because he'll snap on her or something, which is the last thing we're seeing on the screen.
I can understand that look LF and her share could be a look of "I warned you, Sansa" but I interpreted it as "you think I need you, but I'm actually pretty comfy where I'm at".
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
The show also spelled out that Littlefinger always planned on sending up the Vale forces to retake Winterfell and Sansa. His original plan involved waiting until Stannis and the Boltons weakened each other. Littlefinger always planned to "save" Winterfell. The only thing that changed was the timing.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Well, Olena was already in Dorne and knew what Cersei did, so I imagine she also knows Cersei named herself Queen.
And with Vary's birds I'm sure he's kept very up to date on everything in King's landing, even if Olana didn't know. He might not know about the North, but once word does come, I imagine Tyrion will be very complementary about Jon.
Dany is not knowledgeable, but between Varys, Tyrion, and Olena, she has three of the best people imaginable by her side to advise her.
Lady Mormont stares down a Dragon and wins.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
D and D don't have the best track record when it comes to what they intended to depict and what they actually depicted.
RAPE ANYONE
I think it's clear that D and D did listen to some feedback as they pondered the events that would eventually form season 6.
It's likely that they are still deciding on the conflicts that form season 7.
One thing this show has usually done well is characterizations that lead to life or death conflict. In other words, characters don't usually try to kill each other unless they might have done so in the books. So I imagine a little spat between Sansa and Jon, nothing more.
It's likely that they are still deciding on the conflicts that form season 7.
One thing this show has usually done well is characterizations that lead to life or death conflict. In other words, characters don't usually try to kill each other unless they might have done so in the books. So I imagine a little spat between Sansa and Jon, nothing more.
The shortest line ever just formed.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
considering how the battle played out, it was pretty much the best case scenario for littlefinger while at the same time being pretty much the worst possible "victory" for sansa, so i don't see why it would be a stretch to think that sansa got played.
the knights of the vale arrived when the bulk of the stark army was defeated, but just in time to wipe out the bolton army with minimal losses. only way this could have gone better for littlefinger is if jon had died (again).
sansa on the other hand had most of her "own" army killed, and her brother died. had the vale army been there earlier, ramsay might not have been so quick to get rid of his hostage.
whether it actually works out for him or not remains to be seen, but littlefinger could not have planned the battle any better.
the knights of the vale arrived when the bulk of the stark army was defeated, but just in time to wipe out the bolton army with minimal losses. only way this could have gone better for littlefinger is if jon had died (again).
sansa on the other hand had most of her "own" army killed, and her brother died. had the vale army been there earlier, ramsay might not have been so quick to get rid of his hostage.
whether it actually works out for him or not remains to be seen, but littlefinger could not have planned the battle any better.
Good people don't feed their enemies to dogs. I haven't seen her being cunning yet, either, though. She could really go in any direction next season and it would be equally (im)plausible.
Good people don't bake their enemies into pies, which is a problem for both Arya and Wyman Manderly.
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