Killing an innocent person? Doesn't seem that hard to draw the line at all
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 Offseason Thread
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Killing an innocent person? Doesn't seem that hard to draw the line at all
Vire
Member
Yeah I agree the jury is still out... but I tend to lean on the side of thinking that she is just growing into a spinning image of her mother. She is learning how to play the game as it were.
Catelyn certainly wasn't as saintly as Ned, in fact in many instances she was pretty ruthless and because of that she was able to survive longer than her husband did
I think what gigglepoo is missing is that there are characters in Game of Thrones who go beyond purely "good" or "bad" and are varying shades of grey in between. It's what makes them interesting and not one dimensional loons like Ramsey was.
So Sansa's first step toward the Dark Side would be killing an innocent person? That's how it works?
I'm not missing that at all. I'm saying that what she did was heinous. Does that make her evil? Nope! But it also means she isn't good.
metareferential
Member
This is good xD
Is the corpse-pie in the books also? Reminds me of some of Boccaccio's short stories.
A lot of people like seeing vicious things done to evil characters. Millions of people were head over heels for Dexter Morgan. Right or wrong, they just won't judge it as harshly.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
Dumb and evil is a possibility too! Sansa just can't be plausibly good and cunning anymore.
Cat would've never endangered family to get revenge or feed someone to dogs.
Vire
Member
There is totally a difference between vigilante justice versus straight up murderers and terrorists. It's why people liked Jack Bauer as a character even though he killed and tortured a bijillion people.
I totally get that. People judge Sansa through the "good character" lens so they excuse this as justifiable or enjoyable or whatever. I'm trying to push past that "but she's good and he's evil!" distinction, though. It would be pretty boring to only view characters in such a superficial way.
Yup! I'm going to be mighty pissed if this is a one-time aberration, though. That would be cheap storytelling that's more concerned with shock value than believable characters.
The difference between a vigilante and a terrorist is whose point of view we're seeing the world through.
Sure. I don't expect it to get that much attention though. This isn't the show for that.
Sansa will be put in a relatively decent light. Arya is the Punisher.
hey_monkey
Banned
The way I see it is that I don't personally find any of this justifiable, but this is a made-up world with far different standards in terms of law and enforcement. Who was going to punish the Freys? How would they answer for their crimes? It's not like they could call the Westeros FBI or anything. In this world, power wins, so these people seeking revenge used their power, whether it was cunning or martial or something else. It's that or just be like, well, cool, guess those Freys really got me.
Jon probably would have hanged Ramsay, though, or beheaded him, rather.
Jon probably would have hanged Ramsay, though, or beheaded him, rather.
Vire
Member
That's deep.
I don't think it's a one time thing to be honest, her character has slowly been inching slower and slower to the ways of the Little Finger. I could totally see her doing the same kind of thing to Peter next season. What I expect to happen is the show will desperately try and make people think that Sansa is turning on Jon Snow and the whiny book readers will get their knickers in a twist, only for them to realize that she was fooling (the audience) and little finger in some elaborate coup against him.
Aren't you a book reader?
What they're saying offscreen suggests it very well could be the show for that even if the audience don't want it to be. And it absolutely will be a thing in the books.
By other dogs.
hey_monkey
Banned
By Ghost.
Vire
Member
Of course, but not of the whiny sort who complains that Dany's eyes aren't purple in the show.
Certainly in the books, yes.
I'm still a bit cynical about what to expect from the show. To me, what they're really alluding to is Sansa becoming "edgier".
Sansa's actions (and the overall character actually) are more clear when you contrast it with Arya's.
Arya is absolutely brutal, her literal words are that she is going to smile on Walder Frey as he dies and she makes him eat his own sons. Her characterization is far more problematic too, she is all good and caring with Lady Crane but goes absolute sociopath with Trant and Walder. It's almost unrealistic and cheap.
Sansa's words are only that anything about Ramsay will be forgotten, when she smiles she smiles to herself, not to Ramsay or anyone, it's very obviously a Littlefinger smile, she for the first time ever in her life has power over something. She even hesitates about watching Ramsay being devoured.
But Arya doesn't get half the shit Sansa gets as a character, I guess because she has a sword and is "badass".
edit:
This is the other thing, people act like if it was Sansa the one who physically tied up Ramsay and released the hounds, she actually asks Jon where is him, for all we know it was someone's else idea to put him there, even Jon himself.
Arya is absolutely brutal, her literal words are that she is going to smile on Walder Frey as he dies and she makes him eat his own sons. Her characterization is far more problematic too, she is all good and caring with Lady Crane but goes absolute sociopath with Trant and Walder. It's almost unrealistic and cheap.
Sansa's words are only that anything about Ramsay will be forgotten, when she smiles she smiles to herself, not to Ramsay or anyone, it's very obviously a Littlefinger smile, she for the first time ever in her life has power over something. She even hesitates about watching Ramsay being devoured.
But Arya doesn't get half the shit Sansa gets as a character, I guess because she has a sword and is "badass".
edit:
This is the other thing, people act like if it was Sansa the one who physically tied up Ramsay and released the hounds, she actually asks Jon where is him, for all we know it was someone's else idea to put him there, even Jon himself.
In the books Wyman Manderly feeds the Frey pies to the Boltons and, uh, himself.
The crown is responsible for justice. If the crown is unjust in the eyes of enough people then the crown will be overthrown. If Arya wants justice, she should raise a rebellion and place just kings, queens, lords and Ladies to rule, or rule herself. Anything less is murder and prolonging a cycle of lawless violence.
I love when book readers look down on other book readers. It's so lovely.
That's my guess, too. We'll see in 10 months!
You wouldn't last long in Westeros.
Vire
Member
Just teasing, I love y'all.
Even the people who mistakenly think that adding Lady Stoneheart into the show would be a good idea.
Vire
Member
Jon Snow is pretty close to the representing pure "good" as it were. I mean, he's basically the chosen one/neo/jesus who can do no wrong.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
We shall never see his like again.
I'm sure he used his magically deep voice to forge a tunnel to safety through the wildfire.
When did Sansa become cult Jesus anyway?
Other people do stuff on screen, Sansa somehow is credited. Sansa does stuff on screen, other people are credited.
Anything to make her into what she isn't.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
dp
The only REAL appearance mistake I have ever had an issue with was Shireen having blonde hair. The whole first season of the show and the big secret Ned found out was how Baratheon children all have jet black hair which meant Tommen and Myrcella ans Joffrey were not Robert's children and then they have Shireen almost Lannister like with blonde hair.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
oh you guys moved here
that scene at the end with the KING IN THE NORTH thing would have made a great last appearance for Ghost as that guy pronounced Jon the White Wolf as opposed to Robb's the Wolf King
GHOST <3
that scene at the end with the KING IN THE NORTH thing would have made a great last appearance for Ghost as that guy pronounced Jon the White Wolf as opposed to Robb's the Wolf King
GHOST <3
Jon is plain Naive, in addition he killed Qhorin halfhand, overlooked Melisandre's murder of Shireen.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
Well Arya did have the worst storyline this season and she's the only one I'm not confident the showrunners understand what happened. I don't think they realize they made Arya both sympathetic to others and a cold sociopath in the same season. That's she's both cunning and learned the Faceless men's tricks but also dumb enough to stand in the open and tank stab wounds. That she's rejected being no one but also farther away from being Arya than ever before.
The way D&D talk about Dany, I sometimes feel they view ruthlessness as a purely good trait, which is worrisome at the very least. And Maisie doesn't understand what Arya did at all this season, but that's not too surprising for an actor.
I have more confidence that they know what they are doing with Sansa than with Arya.
hey_monkey
Banned
That wouldn't make for a very interesting television drama.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
Wait, are these supposed to be examples of Jon not being good? Because they both reinforce the idea of Jon being a good loyal character.
God Dayumm
Banned
More evidence that she is not Stannis' daughter
Arya's actions were a reenactment of the Rat Cook story where a cook is condemned to eat his own young because he broke Guest Right. From that view, Arya's actions can be justified as divine punishment. Arya did something that the Gods would do.
Sansa fed Ramsay to his own dogs. While this is a fitting and poetic end for Ramsay, it also signifies Sansa becoming more like Ramsay, one of the most evil characters in the show. Ramsay even states that "I am a part of you now". This makes sense since feeding people to dog's was Ramsay's favorite method of execution. Sansa did something that Ramsay would do.
Sansa also abandons Rickon and deceives Jon while Arya disobeys the Faceless men and does not kill Lady Crane. Sansa is willing to abandon her own family members while Arya risks her life for someone she just met. Sansa undoubtedly comes off as the more sinister one.
Or maybe they are clueless about everything
The Arya stuff was indeed terrible this season, but still the Frey pies felt so good.
That was the first three seasons of this very show...
This is very debatable. Sansa does not abandon Rickon at all, she is being level headed about it, and it turns out she was right. On the other hand both Jon and Sansa were very lucky to come out alive this season. Arya was downright infuriating, she should be dead after the gut stabs.
I mean, Sansa convinced Jon to go to fight Ramsay so they could rescue Rickon. And then, the night before the battle, she said Rickon was a lost cause. That's pretty messed up. She played on Jon's duty to family to get him to go to war.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
But in this scenario, Arya herself is the rat cook. Based on an offense from a king (Frey killing her family) she broke guest right and fed Frey his own children before killing him. Even though it was a karmatic death, Arya should now be the one condemned by the gods.
And calculating coldness it would've taken to capture the Frey sons, cook them into pies and feed them to Frey while killing him in the most agonizing way possible... it's definitely one of the most sociopathic acts this show has done outside of Cersei and Ramsey.
I don't know, people seemed to like episode nine and the KITN scene in the finale. There's also demand for a Robert's Rebellion series.
Watch her be his insta-win ace in the hole next year.
She didn't break guest code. She was never invited nor was she a guest. She was there under false pretence in her capacity as an assassin. That's totally different. If Arya Stark was invited to dine in The Twins to negotiate the release of Edmund Tully, and she poisoned everyone, yes she would be condemned because she accepted hospitality and betrayed it. Instead she took on the guise of a serving girl, and killed her targets using the access that gives her. There was no promise between her and her targets, they just didn't see her coming.
Well she convinced Jon to attack Winterfell to save Rickon, then told Jon to give up on Rickon the day before the attack of Winterfell. That gives the impression that she never had any intentions of saving Rickon and her goal actually was to get Winterfell back and to get revenge on Ramsey.
Arya disobeys the Faceless men because she refuses to kill someone she views as a good person. She does this even at the risk of her life. That's why many still view Arya as a hero even after her brutal murders.
Sansa is someone who will abandon her family members if she doesn't believe that she can save them. Arya and Jon are the kinds of people who would die trying to save their family members regardless if it's a bad idea or not.
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