Support NeoGAF

[mantidor]

I mean, Sansa convinced Jon to go to war with Ramsay to rescue Rickon. And then, the night before the battle, she said Rickon was a list cause. That's pretty messed up.

Well yes and no. Before she wasn't even sure he had Rickon, she used the prospect of him being prisoner to push Jon to fight for Winterfell, which is admittedly manipulative on her side, remember Jon here asks that they aren't even sure the pink letter is for real and she's like "yes we are!", however she is the one that demands proof when they meet with Ramsay. Once she got proof you notice she changes, she storms off, at that point she knows Rickon is lost.

Also she expected more men.

 

[hey_monkey]

That was the first three seasons of this very show...

I don't know, people seemed to like episode nine and the KITN scene in the finale. There's also demand for a Robert's Rebellion series.

Lord, y'all, next time I'll put in the /s.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Well yes and no. Before she wasn't even sure he had Rickon, she used the prospect of him being prisoner to push Jon to fight for Winterfell, which is admittedly manipulative on her side, remember Jon here asks that they aren't even sure the pink letter is for real and she's like "yes we are!", however she is the one that demands proof when they meet with Ramsay. Once she got proof you notice she changes, she storms off, at that point she knows Rickon is lost.

Also she expected more men.

Well Im sure theyd have had more men if she was any good at politics like she is at complaining about Davos and making a big deal about the Stark name.

 

[grandjedi6]

She didn't break guest code. She was never invited nor was she a guest. She was there under false pretence in her capacity as an assassin. That's totally different. If Arya Stark was invited to dine in The Twins to negotiate the release of Edmund Tully, and she poisoned everyone, yes she would be condemned because she accepted hospitality and betrayed it. Instead she took on the guise of a serving girl, and killed her targets using the access that gives her. There was no promise between her and her targets, they just didn't see her coming.

Considering the original rat cook was a cook, I'm gonna assume servants fall under guest right too, even when incognito. I guess you could argue that Arya's murders happened after guest right ended but Frey must've sat there for a long ass time after the party while his sons cooked.

Either way, Arya was trying to get a cruel cold revenge, not be an agent of the gods. Unless Jaqen was right and she really is no one now, even if she doesn't realize it.

 

[Massa]

I'm not missing that at all. I'm saying that what she did was heinous. Does that make her evil? Nope! But it also means she isn't good.

If someone locks me up for crimes committed, but lets me keep my dogs with me, I'd say they're a pretty damn good person!

 

[mantidor]

Well Im sure theyd have had more men if she was any good at politics like she is at complaining about Davos and making a big deal about the Stark name.

Which is fine, I'm not going to say she is some master player, she is at least better than Jon though.

 

[StormKing]

Considering the original rat cook was a cook, I'm gonna assume servants fall under guest right too, even when incognito. I guess you could argue that Arya's murders happened after guest right ended but Frey must've sat there for a long ass time after the party while his sons cooked.

Either way, Arya was trying to get a cruel cold revenge, not be an agent of the gods. Unless Jaqen was right and she really is no one now, even if she doesn't realize it.

The rat cook was the host. Arya was not. That means she didn't break guest right. If Arya was no one, she would have killed Lady Crane. She would not have killed Walder Frey.

 

[duckroll]

Considering the original rat cook was a cook, I'm gonna assume servants fall under guest right too, even when incognito. I guess you could argue that Arya's murders happened after guest right ended but Frey must've sat there for a long ass time after the party while his sons cooked.

Either way, Arya was trying to get a cruel cold revenge, not be an agent of the gods. Unless Jaqen was right and she really is no one now, even if she doesn't realize it.

No, you misunderstand my point. The rat cook violated guest right because he was the actual cook in the Nightford serving the guests. He took advantage of his position as the host to take revenge, and hence violated guest rights. Guest right is an honor system where the guest or the host does not expect the other party to do them ill based on their agreement to break bread together. If the rat cook were an outsider who somehow disguised himself as the cook to exact vengeance, there would be no violation of guest right, just general deception.

Furthermore, Arya was disguised as a serving girl working for the Freys, and she killed the Freys. So she wasn't a guest killing the host, or a host killing guests. Being in employ of the hosts and killing the hosts just means you're a terrible employee, not violating a sacred honor system.

 

[Brakke]

Or maybe it's hard to create a world this dense? He's finished plenty of books in the last forty years so I'm not sure why you think he can't finish stories.

I mean, I'm asking. Most of these books don't really have endings, they just stop. Did you read anything else he wrote?

 

[Speevy]

Dany should make The Sand Snakes the rulers of Casterly Rock as punishment.

 

[mantidor]

I really doubt Arya cares that much about the Rat Cook and recreating punishment from the Old Gods, she's all about the Many-faced God.

She wanted revenge, as gruesome as it could possibly be, so she took inspiration from folk tales

 

[duckroll]

Arya definitely doesn't care, but the point of the debate was whether, if the gods did have power, she would be considered to have violated the sacred traditional. Or taken another way, if people knew what she did, would she have been considered to have disregarded a sacred tradition, and be negatively viewed because of it. I would say the answer to both is no. That doesn't mean that it isn't gross and evil to kill two people, bake them into a pie, and feed that to their father before cutting his throat. It just means that no matter how gross and evil it is, the method she employed to do it does not violate any sacred tradition, unlike the Red Wedding.

Why does this matter? Beats me!

 

[StormKing]

I really doubt Arya cares that much about the Rat Cook and recreating punishment from the Old Gods, she's all about the Many-faced God.

She wanted revenge, as gruesome as it could possibly be, so she took inspiration from folk tales

If Bran knows about the Rat Cook story then it's likely that Arya does as well. Do you actually believe that it's a coincidence that she actually gave the Rat Cook punishment to someone who broke guest right?

Bran narrates the story at S3E10.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV5txCNDco0

If she didn't know or care about the Rat Cook story, she would just kill him the same way she killed Trant.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

She didn't break guest code. She was never invited nor was she a guest. She was there under false pretence in her capacity as an assassin. That's totally different. If Arya Stark was invited to dine in The Twins to negotiate the release of Edmund Tully, and she poisoned everyone, yes she would be condemned because she accepted hospitality and betrayed it. Instead she took on the guise of a serving girl, and killed her targets using the access that gives her. There was no promise between her and her targets, they just didn't see her coming.

Agreed.

Man...Manderly doing it in such a perfect way to ensure he did not break guest right right shows how serious the north is about their customs. His son was killed, another captured, the Freys shat on him constantly, etc yet he still went out his way not to violate the laws of gods and men. Likewise he kept his family's vow to the Starks. What a thought, vows and customs matter.

 

[grandjedi6]

No, you misunderstand my point. The rat cook violated guest right because he was the actual cook in the Nightford serving the guests. He took advantage of his position as the host to take revenge, and hence violated guest rights. Guest right is an honor system where the guest or the host does not expect the other party to do them ill based on their agreement to break bread together. If the rat cook were an outsider who somehow disguised himself as the cook to exact vengeance, there would be no violation of guest right, just general deception.

Furthermore, Arya was disguised as a serving girl working for the Freys, and she killed the Freys. So she wasn't a guest killing the host, or a host killing guests. Being in employ of the hosts and killing the hosts just means you're a terrible employee, not violating a sacred honor system.

I'll accept that logic. Her specifically posing as a servant of the Freys to kill a Frey wasn't something I had considered.

 

[Speevy]

Impostor Arya violated breast right.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Man...Manderly doing it in such a perfect way to ensure he did not break guest right right shows how serious the north is about their customs. His son was killed, another captured, the Freys shat on him constantly, etc yet he still went out his way not to violate the laws of gods and men. Likewise he kept his family's vow to the Starks. What a thought, vows and customs matter.

So damned cool Sad we'll never get that conspiracy and scene. That could have been some Season 1-style shit.

 

[duckroll]

Impostor Arya violated breast right.

Walder Frey is an ass man though.

So damned cool Sad we'll never get that conspiracy and scene. That could have been some Season 1-style shit.

Yeah in the books, the Great Northern Conspiracy shows that the North Remembers. In the show, the Great Northern Shame shows that the North Forgot and had to be Reminded by a 10 year old girl. The contrast in tone and theme is really something. Credit to the show for making lemonade out of lemons though, without Lady Mormont, the entire Northern arc would be so much worse.

 

[bitbydeath]

So people are saying/thinking Rhaegor is Jon's father but there is another option. Robert Baratheon.

Robert was deeply in love with Lyanna, he made no secret of that.

Now if we go back to season 1 when Ned was figuring out who's Cersei's childrens father was it came down to hair.

Baratheons have black hair.
Lannisters and Targaryens have blonde hair.
Starks have brown hair.

Jon has black hair.

Maybe Jon is a red herring?

 

[Dai101]

Walder Frey is an ass man though.

The only redeeming aspect of "Wet Shit" Walder Frey

 

[Kozak]

I know you all like this shit

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

So people are saying/thinking Rhaegor is Jon's father but there is another option. Robert Baratheon.

Robert was deeply in love with Lyanna, he made no secret of that.

Now if we go back to season 1 when Ned was figuring out who's Cersei's childrens father was it came down to hair.

Baratheons have black hair.
Lannisters and Targaryens have blonde hair.
Starks have brown hair.

Jon has black hair.

Maybe Jon is a red herring?

Targaryens can also have darker hair.

 

[watershed]

So people are saying/thinking Rhaegor is Jon's father but there is another option. Robert Baratheon.

Robert was deeply in love with Lyanna, he made no secret of that.

Now if we go back to season 1 when Ned was figuring out who's Cersei's childrens father was it came down to hair.

Baratheons have black hair.
Lannisters and Targaryens have blonde hair.
Starks have brown hair.

Jon has black hair.

Maybe Jon is a red herring?

Then why would Ned hide him? It doesn't fit the plot or dialogue. Lyanna said "he will kill him, you know he will..." or something like that. Jon is half-Targaryen, no doubt about it.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I know you all like this shit

Where the hell is Ghost, anyway?

"I feel like I forgot something..."

(Meanwhile, at the Wall...)

[mournful howl]

 

[grandjedi6]

So people are saying/thinking Rhaegor is Jon's father but there is another option. Robert Baratheon.

Robert was deeply in love with Lyanna, he made no secret of that.

Now if we go back to season 1 when Ned was figuring out who's Cersei's childrens father was it came down to hair.

Baratheons have black hair.
Lannisters and Targaryens have blonde hair.
Starks have brown hair.

Jon has black hair.

Maybe Jon is a red herring?

Robert borrowed Littlefinger's teleporter, teleported to Lyanna, impregnated her and then teleported back without saving her.

 

[duckroll]

Do you guys think that in season 7 they're rework the book vision Dany had in the House of the Undying into a Bran vision? Maybe instead of Lyanna holding a baby, it'll be Rhaegar talking to her when she's still heavily pregnant. I feel it's the one missing link the show needs to make it clear once and for all the significance of Jon's parentage. "His is the song of ice and fire" etc.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Where the hell is Ghost, anyway?

Hiding. If he doesn't appear maybe they can't kill him.

Spoiler

he doesn't know about Shaggydog yet.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Do you guys think that in season 7 they're rework the book vision Dany had in the House of the Undying into a Bran vision? Maybe instead of Lyanna holding a baby, it'll be Rhaegar talking to her when she's still heavily pregnant. I feel it's the one missing link the show needs to make it clear once and for all the significance of Jon's parentage. "His is the song of ice and fire" etc.

"Rhaegar, we really are the song of ice and fire."

 

[bitbydeath]

Targaryens can also have darker hair.

Which ones have black hair?

Then why would Ned hide him? It doesn't fit the plot or dialogue. Lyanna said "he will kill him, you know he will..." or something like that. Jon is half-Targaryen, no doubt about it.

Who is 'he'?
Definitely not Robert.
'He' is likely Rhaegor and why would Rhaegor kill his own child? If it were Roberts child he would then have reason.

 

[Black_Sun]

So people are saying/thinking Rhaegor is Jon's father but there is another option. Robert Baratheon.

Robert was deeply in love with Lyanna, he made no secret of that.

Now if we go back to season 1 when Ned was figuring out who's Cersei's childrens father was it came down to hair.

Baratheons have black hair.
Lannisters and Targaryens have blonde hair.
Starks have brown hair.

Jon has black hair.

Maybe Jon is a red herring?

Jon has brown hair in the books not black.

 

[watershed]

Which ones have black hair?



Who is 'he'?
Definitely not Robert.
'He' is likely Rhaegor and why would Rhaegor kill his own child? If it were Roberts child he would then have reason.

"He" is Robert. When Lyanna sees Ned, she knows Robert and Ned have won. It's the only way Ned could get that far south. She is telling Ned to hide "Jon" from Robert because she knows the kind of person Robert is. He would kill her child because her child is a "dragonspawn."

 

[Speevy]

If a Targaryen man has a child with his daughter, is that child a double Targaryen who can breathe fire?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Which ones have black hair?

In the Hedge Knight Egg's uncle and one of his brothers have darker hair.

 

[Black_Sun]

In the Hedge Knight Egg's uncle and one of his brothers have darker hair.

Egg's first born son, Small Duncan, also has black hair.

 

[Acidote]

Which ones have black hair?



Who is 'he'?
Definitely not Robert.
'He' is likely Rhaegor and why would Rhaegor kill his own child? If it were Roberts child he would then have reason.

Rhaegar was already dead when the events of the Tower of Joy happened.

 

[bitbydeath]

Jon has brown hair in the books not black.

Had to look it up but you are right, I've grown too accustomed to show Jon.

 

[BuggyDClown]

Didnt HBO make that family tree going around and doesn't it confirm his parentage. WHy are people even thinking it would be robert. It's this a done deal?

http://www.polygon.com/tv/2016/6/29/12060510/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-theory-confirmed-hbo

 

[Speevy]

Didnt HBO make that family tree going around and doesn't it confirm his parentage. WHy are people even thinking it would be robert. It's this a done deal?



http://www.polygon.com/tv/2016/6/29/12060510/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-theory-confirmed-hbo

Yeah how could someone be confused after seeing that?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Didnt HBO make that family tree going around and doesn't it confirm his parentage. WHy are people even thinking it would be robert. It's this a done deal?



http://www.polygon.com/tv/2016/6/29/12060510/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-theory-confirmed-hbo

If they included that dumbass picture of Aerys couldn't they have also included a dumbass picture of Jon Arryn dead with those stupid painted eyes?

 

[BuggyDClown]

If they included that dumbass picture of Aerys couldn't they have also included a dumbass picture of Jon Arryn dead with those stupid painted eyes?

Hahaha foreal. That image is ridiculous.

Really hoping we meet Howland Reed next season.

 

[Speevy]

Hahaha foreal. That image is ridiculous.

Really hoping we meet Howland Reed next season.

They'll cast Mads Mikkelson to piss us off.

 

[watershed]

Yeah how could someone be confused after seeing that?

Well only Bitby seems to be confused. I think the scene was very effective in showing the viewer what the showrunners wanted us to know: that Jon is not Ned's bastard, that Jon is not his real name, that he is Lyanna's son, and the rest can be inferred if you've been paying attention to the details. They didn't explicitly say "Jon is Rhaegor Targaryen's son" but it's there.

 

[Speevy]

Well only Bitby seems to be confused. I think the scene was very effective in showing the viewer what the showrunners wanted us to know: that Jon is not Ned's bastard, that Jon is not his real name, that he is Lyanna's son, and the rest can be inferred if you've been paying attention to the details. They didn't explicitly say "Jon is Rhaegor Targaryen's son" but it's there.

I was being sarcastic. That image is like when you don't know how to use Excel so you just choose the some random graph option that doesn't show your data at all.

They should have made something more user-friendly, like many of the best GoT maps and family trees are.

 

[watershed]

I was being sarcastic. That image is like when you don't know how to use Excel so you just choose the some random graph option that doesn't show your data at all.

They should have made something more user-friendly, like many of the best GoT maps and family trees are.

Oh yes, that diagram is really awful to look at. I meant the scene in the show is clear enough and also purposefully leaves out stuff to keep the viewer on the hook.

 

[bitbydeath]

Well only Bitby seems to be confused. I think the scene was very effective in showing the viewer what the showrunners wanted us to know: that Jon is not Ned's bastard, that Jon is not his real name, that he is Lyanna's son, and the rest can be inferred if you've been paying attention to the details. They didn't explicitly say "Jon is Rhaegor Targaryen's son" but it's there.

The hair colour threw me but as was pointed out that's just a show thing, books he has the correct hair colour for a Targ/Stark baby.

 

[Kozak]

That HBO infographic looks like they're trying to convince people that they have a complicated show.

edit:

lol

 

[Cromwell]

Jon is plain Naive, in addition he killed Qhorin halfhand, overlooked Melisandre's murder of Shireen.

Qhorin wanted him to kill him, and why the hell would he kill the woman who saved his life? Banishing her is the only punishment he could have given out, anything else he either looks like a total asshole or a coward.

Wyman Manderly was MVP of ADWD for that cold ass shit. Too bad he got nerf'd in the show and they gave all of his cool parts to Arya and the bear cub.

"Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived he would have grown up to be a Frey." is seriously my favorite single line of dialogue in the entire series.

 

[cj_iwakura]

That HBO infographic looks like they're trying to convince people that they have a complicated show.

edit:

lol

They're crispy, alright.

 

[Cromwell]

So damned cool Sad we'll never get that conspiracy and scene. That could have been some Season 1-style shit.

When I read that scene I would have bet cold hard cash then and there that it was going to be in the show. I thought it was just too incredibly well done to not be in there, and if executed right would have easily been one of the GOAT scenes everyone remembers after the show is long over.

Instead, we got Dorne and a bunch of other nonsense. I don't buy an argument that doing some minimal buildup to lead up to that scene would have been a distraction or taken away from the streamlined nature of the show. They don't even have to do the Mance stuff, Ghost in Winterfell still works without all that. Take half of the Dorne scenes and replace them with Wyman Manderly and the northern conspiracy, and you're good to go.

 

[FootballFan]

When I read that scene I would have bet cold hard cash then and there that it was going to be in the show. I thought it was just too incredibly well done to not be in there, and if executed right would have easily been one of the GOAT scenes everyone remembers after the show is long over.

Instead, we got Dorne and a bunch of other nonsense. I don't buy an argument that doing some minimal buildup to lead up to that scene would have been a distraction or taken away from the streamlined nature of the show. They don't even have to do the Mance stuff, Ghost in Winterfell still works without all that. Take half of the Dorne scenes and replace them with Wyman Manderly and the northern conspiracy, and you're good to go.

Exactly, Wyman Manderly was such a great character in the books (still is), and would have made for great moments in the show.