il Diavolo
Banned
Of all the characters who got jobbed in the show, Doran hurts the most. He had some excellent material in the books that I would've loved to see Siddig bring to life.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
Yeah I honestly cannot remember what he did in the show other than die like a little bitch.
H.Cornerstone
Member
His Fire and Blood speech and Wyman Manderly's The North Remember speeches are some of my favorite from the books.
CopperPuppy
Member
Yeah, hard to get that bad taste out of my mouth. Doran in general is very well written in the books and the lack of the Fire and Blood speech in the show made me question what their priorities were for the series in general.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Yeah, that read to me as an insult towards the writers, too. Also, didn't realize until I saw the interview with Varma that her character is officially done for the show. I figured we'd eventually revisit her in that dungeon. It was a well-done final scene, but "eh, I dunno, starved in a dungeon eventually, or something, I guess" feels like a pretty unsatisfying end for a character who in theory has a whole kingdom riding on her back, especially for a show that so rarely deals in the implicit.
Still leaves the question of what the Dornish army is currently even doing, but maybe just like the Tyrells it's just that their army was secretly all a bunch of huge wimps who all immediately fell over dead when presented with the mere possibility of battle.
I figure King's Landing will blow up at some point, so that'll be a more permanent end.
Jorah
Pretty sure Theon takes that.
Latvian Hitman
Member
After toting Bran up and down snowbanks for this long, she should look like Gabi Garcia...
She should be able to defeat the army of the dead single-handedly...
There's a new Boiled Leather Audio Hour where, even though the episode is ostensibly about whether or not the Hound is Azor Ahai, they talk about a variety of things and Stephen Sasse at one point touches on the purpose of Dorne and Fake-Aegon in the story that rings quite true to me.
Essentially in the books Fake-Aegon and his allies exist to be an obstacle for Dany, but it will be in a direct way in terms of being an opponent she has to overcome in her attempts to claim Westeros. Sasse reveals this is directly hinted at in the book in a clever way. Listen to the podcast episode for more details.
In the show for time reasons the larger Aegon story was cut, but there is still clearly a narrative purpose in there existing an obstacle that impedes Dany's progress in claiming her throne. Aegon's allies have been repurposed to fill that roll. In the show they impede Dany's progress by being unreliable allies that hurt her when she depends on them.
What is Dorne doing now? Unfortunately I'd be surprised if they even show up again as their narrative purpose may have already been served.
If anyone isn't listening to Boiled Leather and is a Game of Thrones/ASOIAF fan they really should be. This is the best discussion of the books and show IMO.
Yeah, I thought about him, too. Might be number 1.
But Meera has had an awful time. How much time has passed between Hold the Door and now? 8 months? Because that has been a nasty stretch. Imagine lugging Robot McWeddingRape through the snow for half a year after your brother got murdered by skeletons.
And Bran is not the guy you talk to a lot since recently. Potentially he was off for many hours a day, watching a "the story so far".
If Emmy winning writing doesn't deserve these actors then what does?
Napalm_Frank
Member
Say what you will about Sandsnakes and bad pussy...
But killing off the Martells to avenge Martells takes the cake.
But killing off the Martells to avenge Martells takes the cake.
Oh yeah, the Dornish/Tyrell/Greyjoy/Unsullied defeats clearly have a purpose in hindering Dany, and seemingly in convincing her to eventually go more unrestrained in unleashing the Dothraki and dragons, I'm just saying it's not super well thought out. Ellaria was explicitly traveling to hook up with the Dornish army and marching to King's Landing, and her capture is a serious setback, but the army is still there. If you had in the past portrayed the Dornish as hesitant to war, then maybe you could sell them being so discouraged by Ellaria's capture that they decided to stay home, but they were portrayed as so thirsty for revenge that they embraced Ellaria's murder of Doran just to have a chance at it. You would think they'd be off to war just to fuck shit up at this point, given how they've been painted.
Similarly, Olenna's death is important for Dany, but it's just not super well thought out. Literally minutes earlier in the episode we were shown how a Lannister skeleton crew was able to inflict massive casualties on the Unsullied, which the Unsullied could only overcome by having inside knowledge of the castle. Last season, Blackfish and like 12 dudes in a castle were considered such a threat that non-military means had to be used to defeat them. But Highgarden with the whole Tyrell army in it falls easily because they were secretly a bunch of sissies, which no one realized during their whole service in the war of the five kings?
It just wouldn't have been hard to make these things a bit more sensible. They could have made Tarly's betrayal be actually important to the plot by having him approach Highgarden as a false ally and take it from within. You could have inserted some bit about Euron turning South and burning Sunspear and scattering their army, doesn't even have to be shown on screen. You could have gotten around so much of the implausibility of Euron's plot by just having had Yara only steal like 30 or 40 ships and leave him with a few hundred, so that he didn't have to mysteriously build a thousand and could still have plausibly overwhelmed her at sea.
Without a doubt these two aspects of the story have not been sufficiently fleshed out. Dorne has been so one dimensional in the show.
With regard to the seige of Highgarden I think the intention was that House Tarly is such a powerful and important house, that them turning away from the Tyrells is enough to doom House Tyrell (they are not the Freys). Unfortunately they didn't do a good enough job either showing this on screen in terms of showing a large army or indicating this in dialogue.
For example a scene where a Tyrell general is listing off a all the Tyrell vassal houses that had slinked away or joined the Tarlys would have been helpful to explain why Highgarden would fall relatively easily.
Agreed, it's one of my biggest gripe with the last episode. I'm rewatching the show and they mention so many times how powerful the Tyrells are, how big their army is, even in season 2 Tywin almost ranks the power of the different houses.
So you're on point, they could have explained it so much better, show how important Tarly and the other bannermen were to the Tyrell army.
Something that Martin stresses again and again in the books is how incredibly politically important good, strong relationships are with your vassal houses. Its the base on which a strong major house is built.
The Red Wedding tragedy stems from ignoring the required politics of marrying into your vassal houses to strengthen relationships.
Its unfortunate that the show doesnt have the time to dwell on these topics more.
The Red Wedding tragedy stems from ignoring the required politics of marrying into your vassal houses to strengthen relationships.
Its unfortunate that the show doesnt have the time to dwell on these topics more.
Because they need a 4 second scene hand-waiving the entire army so Olenna doesn't appear weak, but that also tells you why the battle was too embarrassingly one-sided to actually film.
They had the time, just not the desire. It's easier to write a super stabby revenge attack scene.
There was very clear explanation in the show that the Red Wedding was due to Rob marrying for love instead of fulfilling obligations.
At this point in the show sufficient time was being spent on these topics.
I think it's only relatively recently that the show has been forced into breezily passing by topics in order to advance the plot to conclusion.
I would have liked to see Roose Bolton's downfall given more attention on the show. It was so sudden and unsatisfying, even to see him die the same way Robb did.
One Eyed Willy
Member
I thought he was a great character and actor too. I wasn't happy the way he was dealt with.
Poisoned by his enemies
One Eyed Willy
Member
Something just popped into my head, not sure if this has been discussed. So Jaime gives Olenna the poison.. she goes out like a gangster ... or does she?? They don't show her die, only Jaime storming out of the room right?
I'm sure she's likely dead or dying but given how carefully crafted the edits on this show are, is it possible there is something left for Olenna? She was a fan favorite, the creators knew this so maybe they're leaving a little something out?
I'm sure she's likely dead or dying but given how carefully crafted the edits on this show are, is it possible there is something left for Olenna? She was a fan favorite, the creators knew this so maybe they're leaving a little something out?
nah she's dead
She's with Stannis now.
Have we ever had a character appear dead and then turn up not dead? None come to mind for me. I don't think the "alive unless he dies on screen" rule applies to this show.
Maybe The Hound turning up again is the closest we got to someone "we" thought was dead but wasn't?
One Eyed Willy
Member
I hear you guys, but .. we didn't see her die..yet?
Bran and Rickon kinda? Obviously we all knew what was going on but others who only saw the show might not have been sure at first.
Deadly Joker
Member
We haven't seen Stannis die either.
One Eyed Willy
Member
Ok fair enough, and perhaps this variation of on screen deaths is actually a thought out contrast to the rest. Not showing an old grandma choke out and die and instead her last scene is her powerful admission leaving that as her last impression. Maybe this was debated in the edit room and the team decided it was better not to show.
IamDodongo
Member
I'm with you on all these points. The writing has really fallen off a cliff, continuity-wise.
Ocarina_117
Banned
Roose should have played a larger roll last season. D&D had too much of a boner for Ramsay they threw a compelling villain out the window.
Speaking of her...
Does anyone think D&D have spent a single moment of their time wondering what to do with her? lol. I bet either she utterly disappears without a trace or she bites it somehow.
she's definitely going to say 'I'm going home now' or something and will never be seen again
Grey Worm will find him on the road back to Dragonstone.
"Hello Stannis. Melisandre stop by. She less evil than before."
"Fewer."
'No, Grey Worm use it right. You wrong now."
Jesus fucking Christ, Bran.
I bitched hard about this last year. Michael McElhatton was excellent but D&D only had eyes for Iwan Rheon after S3.
Latvian Hitman
Member
H.Cornerstone
Member
What side characters are even left? Missandei, Grey Worm, Tormund and Brienne are really the only ones.