Ocarina_117
Banned
I'm expecting Stannis will take back the north for the starks (Davos will retrieve Rickon and the north will match for Stannis as a result). His death, imho, will come late TWoW against the others
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I'm expecting Stannis will take back the north for the starks (Davos will retrieve Rickon and the north will match for Stannis as a result). His death, imho, will come late TWoW against the others
Moff
Member
It was handled poorly. They rushed it and hardly showed any of the desperation in Stannis' camp.
However, what I think is important about burning Shireen is that it must be Stannis' choice. And in your example or if melisandre does it on her own, it would not be a choice, and that won't happen. I don't doubt GRRM will handle it better, but it will be Stannis, and it will be a choice between duty and family. It will not be a heroic last measure, it will be a poor choice of a troubled character who made plenty of poor choices, and it will lead to his death either way. That is a good plot. Sacrificing her to destroy the others is not. I expect more from GRRM.
They could have killed Stannis and his entire army given this disaster movie-grade snowstorm that was apparently ravaging them.
Just have him not kill Shireen so he dies holding his little girl. It would have required reworking a couple of scenes, but the payoff of actually having Stannis reject the red woman would have been worth it.
Just have him not kill Shireen so he dies holding his little girl. It would have required reworking a couple of scenes, but the payoff of actually having Stannis reject the red woman would have been worth it.
elrechazado
Banned
Who says stannis will even burn Shireen? Even if she's burned, which is far from a sure thing, maybe Mel or queens men or even the queen herself do it.
He's at a crofters village right now where a lighthouse stands in the middle of a lake. The Night Lamp theory guesses that he'll lure the Bolton soldiers to him by lighting the lighthouse lamp and they'll fall through holes he cuts in the lake. Then his soldiers will strip the dead Boltons, wear their clothes, and be let into Winterfell by disguising who they are.
Either way, he won't die by being outsmarted by Ramsey.
Jon has been getting rid of anyone with King's blood. That's definitely setting up something.
Moff
Member
D&D said that GRRM told them about it
Ramsey and 20 good men.
elrechazado
Banned
I don't believe them, but iirc, that's not actually even what they said.
I landed on it on my first re-read in my teens, without the help of the internet, and I definitely don't possess any special deductive powers. He put Jon's parentage in mind in the same book he revealed Lyanna made Ned promise something important.
Scan again and find George describing Arya as looking like Lyanna, and Jon as looking like Arya. All of these little things stick out like sore thumbs.
Moff
Member
Oh yes I mentioned that before, D&D are not only bad writers and hacks, they are also dirty liars. I am pretty sure they beat their wives as well. If they even have any, those losers.
The Artisan
Member
So if Stannis is winning we can assume he'll take back Winterfell?
-both Dany and Jon pissed me off
-Varys wasn't there and he should have been
-when Dany asked if she had her history wrong after saying the last king in the north bent the knee to Aegon Targaryen, nobody in the room, not Davos whom she was addressing, not Jon, not Tyrion, not Varys, stopped to correct Dany to tell her that the last king in the north was NOT Torrhen Stark, it was Robb Stark who was viciously killed. And Robb didn't kneel to nobody.
-As soon as Jon is there, Dany assumed he was gonna bend the knee she literally said so, now here's the thing with that: if bending the knee is such an important thing with Dany then I would've expected to see the other Westerosi kneeling before her since it's so important to her. We never saw Theon & Yara doing it, we never saw Olenna doing it, and we never saw any of the sandsnakes doing it. And there was no mention of it either. For some reason she was making it a big deal specifically to get Jon Snow to do it, and I could not begin to fathom where in the world the line "...and bend the knee" came from in episode 2. When Melisandre & Tyrion were telling Dany about Jon it was all good things. If the things they were saying were a mixed bag, I'd understand she'd be thinking "hm alright this guy sounds like a fuckhead but he's done some things that can be useful & calls himself king, I'll give him a shot", and the line "tell Jon Snow his queen invites him over" would make sense with "and bend the knee" at the end. but since they were talking all, good things about Jon, I figure Dany would be thinking "hm, alright, this guy sounds like he's got good reason to hate Cersei, and he's done good things so he's trustworthy. he'll make a good ally..." and it would make sense for her to just invite him, and not demand a kneel. if that makes sense. she also probably assumed it because she probably assumed Tyrion wrote that part in the parchment; he conveniently left it out.
-everybody talks about how Dany was asking forgiveness for her father's sins on behalf of House Targaryen, they compare it to how Jon said he won't punish the Umber & Karstark children for the sins of their fathers. However, Jon also rationalizes it as "I will not take a family away from their ancestral home..." - and here, Jon rationalizes himself as "not beholden to my ancestor's vows..." but technically by his logic, Dany's ancestral right was Queen of the 7 kingdoms and therefore queen in the north, and technically, Jon was denying Dany of her ancestral "right".
-Jon literally says "We're children playing at a game screaming that the rules aren't fair," and Dany gets offended by that saying "...now he's calling me a child" - Tyrion responds by saying he's calling all of them children, that part is right, and then he goes on to say "figure of speech" - but NO Jon literally said WE are children, how the hell did she hear that as "you are a child" wtf Dany?! I get that Jon is horrible at explaining things but this just doesn't make sense.
-and speaking of nonsense, Dany's rant made absolutely no sense; I mean everything she said I can buy it I guess but her going on a rant, as a response to Jon bringing up the winter war; made no sense! It's not like Jon was saying, look I need help and you need mine and I also don't think you should be ruling the 7 kingdoms. No, that's not what he said at all all he said was, nah I'm not here to bend the knee, but listen we're all sitting ducks here because there is an apocalyptic level threat happening very close to home for me right now.
-So honestly, the only thing I can think of to make it logical for her to start that tirade, is that it kinda started out with how Euron was talking to Cersei except he was trying to sweet talk her and when he tries to take a step towards her the mountain steps in. Same thing here, Jon takes a step towards Dany and the Dothraki stop him. But she was impressed with Jon Snow and subconsciously respected him so far and wanted to showcase how tough she is and whatever hasn't killed her has made her stronger and brought her to Westeros. She was impressed by him and figured she had to get up and start walking over to him so she could look him directly in the eye. But this is an example of the writing being so uninspired that we the fans who think about it, have to think of a way of having it make actual sense in the story, coz I really have no idea except this. People were doing that often with Euron's whole Greyjoy fleet and how OP it is.
-And during that tirade she mentions that she wondered if Jon's father knew that his best friend conspired to kill her. Again, I have to reinforce how unfortunate it was that Varys wasn't present since he was there at the Small Council meeting when Ned refused and resigned as King's Hand when Robert wouldn't back down from killing Dany. Surely that's something Tyrion would've known about by now?
-Tyrion says to Jon, "pledge your sword to her cause" and Jon goes "and why would I do that?!" - why NOT Jon? The Lannisters killed your father, your brother, your foster mother even though she didn't love you, tortured your sister, crippled another brother although he doesn't know this, and you yourself even said she's better than Cersei! And you don't even care about the iron throne so why not just give yourself to her? Unless Jon just doesn't respect Dany immediately like the way she has respected him; otherwise I don't think she would've kept him there. She would've either let him go or killed him if things got really sour. But she forced him to stay for...some reasons. There were times where she had meetings with men in power and a lot of the times those meetings didn't end well. But she forcefully ended this one well, confining him to the island but disguising it as him being a guest there.
-one last thing; Jon never ever mentions the fact that he knew & respected late Maester Aemon. Let's see if he does it in future episodes but that was a massive disservice how didn't bring it up. "Break faith? Your father burned my grandfather alive. He burned my uncle alive. He would've burned the seven kingdoms. By the way, I was a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, and your elder uncle and I never broke faith with each other." I kind of understand him not bending the knee - he said he meant no disrespect but he only just met Dany, he isn't discounting her of everything she said and went through but again they're making this whole kneeling thing important; Jon has spent way too much time with the wildlings, and got to know Mance Rayder personally.
Apologies for all that, I know it was a tirade of my own making. So, you can clearly see how much the dynamic of these 2 characters together is important to me, and I had extremely high expectations for their first meeting. I really wish and believe it could've been a bit better.
Ocarina_117
Banned
It won't be to destroy the others. I think it will merely be to delay them. Stannis will not reach the last book. He will sanction the burning of shireen and it will be tragic. Reading it from Davos' POV could be heart breaking.
I'm also thinking the book will have a new POV character to follow John after his resurrection. The theory of him no longer being a POV character is an awesome one
Moff
Member
I wanted to edit that in, it's basically the same thing.
Stannis is not a hero, I don't understand how even his biggest fans cannot see that. It needs to be his choice, a real choice. Not some heroic act to stop or delay the others, that would be nonsense and unfit for a an interesting character like him. It can't be the right choice that makes us feel good about him, that's not GRRM.
How sad that Robb wasn't brought up. Sadder even that it didn't even occur to me until just now either. I figure D&D forgot all about him along with the rest of us.
The Artisan
Member
How sad that Robb wasn't brought up. Sadder even that it didn't even occur to me until just now either. I figure D&D forgot all about him along with the rest of us.
Man EYE sure didn't forget about him, especially since she prefaces with "or do I have my history wrong?" yes ma'am you do!!!
elrechazado
Banned
Umm,ok. How about produce the quote.
The Artisan
Member
she was still wrong to say that the last king in the north was Torrhen Stark.
Well yes, I agree with you. The show frequently ignores plot points they deem convenient to ignore when a character needs to make some bizarre speech.
In Dany's case, it's as though she just arrived from 100 years in the past.
The Artisan
Member
could be that, or it could also be that I hypothesized is that she's just eager as hell for Jon to pledge to her.
Moff
Member
it's on the dvd commentary
"Although it has yet to feature in A Song Of Ice And Fire, George R.R. Martin has confirmed that it was always his intention for Stannis and Melisandre to sacrifice Shireen to the God of Light."
and this is the inside the episode of that episode
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfLScJVXBHQ
"It's obviously the hardest choice in his life. And what it comes down to, is just ambition versus familial love, and for Stannis that choice is sadly ambition.
When George first told us about this, we just thought it was so horrible and so good because it all comes together. The very first time we saw Stannis and Melisandre they were sacrificing people and it's really all come to this"
Stannis fighting against Dany on the Trident would be fucking amazing.
The Artisan
Member
if it was deliberate then why would she start and end with "I've never had a formal education but...or do I have my facts wrong?"
because yes, because of her lack of a formal education she did indeed have her facts wrong. if we look at this alone perhaps it could've been forgiven for being narratively ignored but I wrote over 5 detailed reasons for why the scene was stupid, that one included.
cj_iwakura
Member
I feel like the 'come and see, come and see' note in the book was too on the nose. I doubt Stannis' fate will be the same there.
I agree here, personally I think Jon just absorbed Stannis' plot in S6, and than in TWOW Jon will come back at a much later period that in the show- I think he will come back in the middle or end as opposed to the beginning. D&D never liked Stannis and probably just wanted to off him as he wasn't a very popular character.
Personally I think Stannis will fall to fAegon in his ancestral home of the Stormlands, it would make for a great parallel to be on the attacking side for a castle he once held himself. Though of course there is the question of how Stannis would even reach the Stormlands, he would have to cross both the Vale, Riverlands and Crownalnds (which would presumably be Lannister owned at this time).
EDIT: This is, assuming that fAegon does indeed hold Storm's End- I am not quite sure if he had already won it or had just landed at the end of ADWD.
Either way, I am HYPED for more Stannis the Mannis, even through D&D's shitty writing and ill-conceived biases and his own apathy towards the role, Stephan Dillane was s star and Stannis was fucking perfect. He is the one true king and my favorite character in both mediums, just by typing this post I felt my knee bending a bit.
Atraveller
Banned
I'm just not buying she didn't know about Robb Stark. She talked about the War of Five Kings back in season 2. She had some concept of what was going on in Westeros. Still, it's entirely possible D&D didn't put that much thought into it.
The Artisan
Member
I think that's the key thing here
Yea he's my favorite in the books as well and no way in hell does he lose to Ramsay Bolton in the books.
Red Arremer
Member
Are you sure narrative dead ends are beneath the show? May I remind you of the Dorne arc?
Because this is the development of Dorne and its plot after Oberyn's death:
- The Sand Snakes want revenge
- Doran says no
- The Sand Snakes kill the Martells and Myrcella
- The Sand Snakes take over Dorne and ally themselves with Dany
- The Sand Snakes die and (presumably) Dorne is never heard of again
Dorne's plot really went somewhere. Definitely no dead ends here. If this wasn't a narrative dead end, then what would you say was the purpose of even introducing Dorne, having several episodes take place there, and make an alliance with one of the principal protagonists if the alliance with Dany was doomed to fail, and did so the very second the Dornish were supposed to do something?
Because to me it seems that D&D took over Dorne because it was in the books, didn't know what to do with it and tried to rid themselves of it and the characters associated with it ASAP.
I feel the argument would work better if they didn't completely ignore the Greyjoys in season 5 (or up until season 6 for that matter).
RyanardoDaVinci
Member
The Artisan
Member
You know if I were to ever write fanfiction, I would put a "Kiryu Targaryen" in the mix.
It is going to be about the Others, and it is going to be the wrong choice, that is the whole point. As it was with Edric, when GRRM specifically had Stannis say what worth is one child against the realm and Davos reply everything. The point will and always has been that there is no greater good worth that sacrifice and it is therefor not a heroic act no matter what. The less selfish the greater good sought, the better the point is made.
BetterThanNothing
Member
Say what you will about D&D but I don't think any of their missteps are due to a lack of thought, unless you count stories conflicting with others to the point where you can no longer salvage what's broken without abandoning what currently works. Their planning falls through frequently, from what I can gather regarding the abrupt shifts in character archs. They really are just working towards the large picture because they're tired and that much is already a monumental task.
Imo, the lack of mentioning Robb comes down to the fact that if they had, it would have led to the exact same place but taken up more time.
"Uh actually, Robb was the last KitN"
"So a Stark rose up against the lineage of my own usurper? How does that change the fact that your family swore an oath to mine hundreds of years ago, and that oath stands because I am still the rightful heir?"
"Oh, right. Because my family already rose against yours before when yours broke the vows between us. I'm not bending my knee to you"
I mean, D&D has fucked up, but this was completely reasonable. The first time the two central characters meet, and they don't have much time to lay down where they stand and what their intentions are. Robb, ultimately, wasn't a big deal in sight of history. Dany probably hadn't even heard of him and Tyrion had no reason to speak of a boy that was King for about a year, and lucky to live that long. Regardless of any of that, he's completely irrelevant to the Jon/Dany situation. Time's too precious in the show to go full history with it, especially on things the show watchers already know about.
Imo, the lack of mentioning Robb comes down to the fact that if they had, it would have led to the exact same place but taken up more time.
"Uh actually, Robb was the last KitN"
"So a Stark rose up against the lineage of my own usurper? How does that change the fact that your family swore an oath to mine hundreds of years ago, and that oath stands because I am still the rightful heir?"
"Oh, right. Because my family already rose against yours before when yours broke the vows between us. I'm not bending my knee to you"
I mean, D&D has fucked up, but this was completely reasonable. The first time the two central characters meet, and they don't have much time to lay down where they stand and what their intentions are. Robb, ultimately, wasn't a big deal in sight of history. Dany probably hadn't even heard of him and Tyrion had no reason to speak of a boy that was King for about a year, and lucky to live that long. Regardless of any of that, he's completely irrelevant to the Jon/Dany situation. Time's too precious in the show to go full history with it, especially on things the show watchers already know about.
fly high ~ayunite~
Member
I have a t-shirt that has "BEND" written across it which is one of my favourite go-to t-shirts, my name is J. Snow (not Jon but close enough). I'm getting a lot of ribbings when friends have seen me wearing it in the last week.
SerAardvark
Member
Dany would never recognize Robb as King in the North because she views House Targaryen as the lawful/legitimate ruler of the North. Hence why she refers to Torrhen as the last King in the North and calls Jon Lord Snow - it's a deliberate move to underscore the fact that she doesn't view Jon (or Robb) as legitimate kings and sees them as trying to usurp her own authority. She's trying to assert herself and her authority in that scene, even if it's rude or whatever - to her, Jon is someone who owes her allegiance.
BetterThanNothing
Member
Not sure if that was in response to me or if I just gave the wrong impression, but we agree on every point you made.
For Stannis to burn Shireen he would have to take over Winterfell. The only other option is his capture and then some release or escape storyline. There is no retreat possibility that makes sense either. Which then means Stannis must burn Shireen for some battle with the White Walkers or Dany or Cersei.
Jon will probably be very different than in the show. In the show Jon hasn't changed at all after being resurrected. The books haveade it very clear that once you die, you will never be the same, you pretty much lose your humanity. Dondarrion forgot everything about his old life and had no real reason to live anymore and Catelyn became a zombie whose only purpose is revenge for her son. There's no way Jon Snow will return like he did in the show.
I highly doubt Stannis will burn Shireen in the book, it just doesn't fit his character at all. Shireen will be burned (thanks for the spoilers, D&D), but not by Stannis. It'll probably be Melisandre solo or maybe Mel and Stannis' wife.
The Artisan
Member
Well we'll never know if it was a deliberate move to underscore Robb's (short) legacy because no one brought it up. Davos was the one Dany was addressing and Davos was the one to stop Dany and tell her "he's a king, not a lord" so it would've made sense for him to be like "actually your grace, but yes, you do have your facts wrong. the last king in the north was Robb Stark, who was murdered by the hand of the family that is currently on the iron throne, the Lannisters." For all we know, she wasn't "educated" on the War of the 5 Kings.
I think it was a response to me.
I don't think Cat came back as Cat but rather a shell. Didn't her body start decomposing by the time she was brought back to life? Her brain is probably not all there anymore.
I hope Jon coming back doesn't put any evil in his heart, I guess.
Yes, but that's true for everyone in the books. Drogo, Beric, Cat, and Gregor all come back as a shell of their past selves.
I give the show a lot of shit but isn't that kind off what happened? Before his "rebirth" scene in the BoB, Jon seemed very depressed and unattached to his surroundings, even when he was recruiting allies he was... lifeless. He seemed to be marching into certain death, something he knew and accepted.
The Artisan
Member
on the show at least, Jon is different in that it looks like he's become stronger after coming back. Like those scars on his torso and chest have hardened him.
Are you satisfied that the cost of resurrection is Jon Snow became mopey?
He rode for a week after Ygrette shot him with arrows. Dude has always been tough.
Also, you'd think there'd be some detriment to coming back from the dead, wouldn't you? Or else why should we even care?
No, of course not- and heck if GRRM does the same thing, I will forever see him as a hypocrite for his comments on Gandalf and criticism of Tolkein.
But it does mean that on some level D&D understood that characters were changed after death, its just the execution that was shit.
The Artisan
Member
maybe there is something there and we'll find out what it is.