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[Gigglepoo]

No, of course not- and heck if GRRM does the same thing, I will forever see him as a hypocrite for his comments on Gandalf and criticism of Tolkein.

But it does mean that on some level D&D understood that characters were changed after death, its just the execution that was shit.

I feel like a lot of their choices are just trying to appease the audience. They think the general watcher wouldn't want a feral Jon, for instance, so they skipped it. But the crazy thing is, they have the power to take many more risks than the average show. GoT is a phenomenon and it built its success by subverting people's desires. But now that D&D are in charge of the story they're scared to do anything that will rock the boat.

Can you believe we went from the Red Wedding to Arya getting repeatedly stabbed with no repercussions? It's really not the same show anymore. And though we say D&D are sloppy or lazy, their real sin is supreme cowardice.

 

[Apt101]

I feel like a lot of their choices are just trying to appease the audience. They think the general watcher wouldn't want a feral Jon, for instance, so they skipped it. But the crazy thing is, they have the power to take many more risks than the average show. GoT is a phenomenon and it built its success by subverting people's desires. But now that D&D are in charge of the story they're scared to do anything that will rock the boat.

Can you believe we went from the Red Wedding to Arya getting repeatedly stabbed with no repercussions? It's really not the same show anymore. And though we say D&D are sloppy or lazy, their real sin is supreme cowardice.

I'm sure they have to fight with, and eventually find a middle ground with, Hollywood executives that want to play it safe - people who are more concerned with creating and maintaining a lucrative and accessible product. Big shocks, the kinds of things that generate buzz on social media, are great! Nuanced and provocative changes to characters, sophisticated plot lines, etc - probably not very attractive to HBO executives after about s3. They're not going to rock the boat, just ride this money train to its conclusion.

 

[KahooTs]

I doubt that very much, I expect they have absolute free reign to do whatever they want with the show. If they didn't it wouldn't be needlessly rushing to an end. They want off and the studio would rather keep them happy than risk handing it over.

I think it is the spin offs where the orders will come down from high up top, "this seems ok but I think a rich happy go lucky whoremonger who makes tits and wine jokes would really add to the dynamic. Oh and if we could fit in a rape for our female lead and end the season on her getting revenge that'd be swell too."

 

[number11]

So how much book stuff might still make it into the show? Or are we past that point?

 

[PR_rambo]

Hey do the books mention how the Iron Bank would deal with the Lannister if they don't pay them what they're owed?

 

[Joni]

Hey do the books mention how the Iron Bank would deal with the Lannister if they don't pay them what they're owed?

Tyrion once remarked they'd just find the regime's enemies. The Iron Bank does this as well, it goes to Stannis and offers him a lot of money.

 

[Red Arremer]

I feel the argument would work better if they didn't completely ignore the Greyjoys in season 5 (or up until season 6 for that matter).

How else would you explain the clearly failed attempt to make a Dorne plot, then?

Hey do the books mention how the Iron Bank would deal with the Lannister if they don't pay them what they're owed?

The crown is in debt and Cersei refuses to pay, so they're looking for an outlet to get their money back, which is why Tycho Nestoris is in the books and he travels with Stannis.
The Lannister mines having run dry is not mentioned in the books.

 

[Fuzzy]

I've always rejected that resurrection had any effect on Cat in the books. She had a psychotic break BEFORE she died. She watched her son be brutally murdered and snapped and killed an innocent simpleton and then tore her face with her nails before being killed. She'd still be the vengeful Stoneheart if resurrection had no effect. Her not being able to articulate her thoughts because of her throat being slashed to the bone only adds to the appearance that it's more than her just snapping. "But wait" you'll say, "what about Beric saying he's less and less every time he comes back?" Read interviews about people in war who see horrible shit and are badly wounded and how that changes them and makes them disconnect from their prior lives. Their life from before those traumatic events becomes like a dream and they start to lose who they were. It's not their rehab (resurrection) that affected them, it was the trauma (their death). "But GRRM said resurrection had a cost!" Words are wind.

 

[Real Hero]

You are being silly if you think stoneheart is just the same as cat in life.

 

[Fuzzy]

You are being silly if you think stoneheart is just the same as cat in life.

Now read what I wrote again.

EDIT: And to clarify, if Cat wasn't killed and just badly injured she'd still be Stoneheart because of her psychotic break.

 

[Red Arremer]

I believe the resurrection at least amplified those feelings of vengeance. There's also the fact that Cat's body had been rotting away in a river for quite a while before getting resurrected by Beric and Thoros. I sincerely doubt that wouldn't have had any effect on her brain.

 

[chicken_pasta]

I've always rejected that resurrection had any effect on Cat in the books. She had a psychotic break BEFORE she died. She watched her son be brutally murdered and snapped and killed an innocent simpleton and then tore her face with her nails before being killed. She'd still be the vengeful Stoneheart if resurrection had no effect. Her not being able to articulate her thoughts because of her throat being slashed to the bone only adds to the appearance that it's more than her just snapping. "But wait" you'll say, "what about Beric saying he's less and less every time he comes back?" Read interviews about people in war who see horrible shit and are badly wounded and how that changes them and makes them disconnect from their prior lives. Their life from before those traumatic events becomes like a dream and they start to lose who they were. It's not their rehab (resurrection) that affected them, it was the trauma (their death). "But GRRM said resurrection had a cost!" Words are wind.

GRRM specifically said resurrection changes you. But ok, whatever.

 

[Real Hero]

Now read what I wrote again.

EDIT: And to clarify, if Cat wasn't killed and just badly injured she'd still be Stoneheart because of her psychotic break.

She probably kill herself or become like she was Bran was attacked.

 

[elrechazado]

Now read what I wrote again.

EDIT: And to clarify, if Cat wasn't killed and just badly injured she'd still be Stoneheart because of her psychotic break.

So you base your theory on the words he wrote but discount the words he wrote explaining the words he wrote? Ok

 

[jett]

I thought Dany not acknowledging Rob Stark was deliberate. She doesn't consider Rob Stark a legitimate king anymore than Jon.

Not going to excuse how stupid that scene was but that bit wasn't something I had a problem with.

I think it's more a problem of Jon not acknowledging his "brother."

 

[Human Trashcan]

I've always rejected that resurrection had any effect on Cat in the books. She had a psychotic break BEFORE she died. She watched her son be brutally murdered and snapped and killed an innocent simpleton and then tore her face with her nails before being killed. She'd still be the vengeful Stoneheart if resurrection had no effect. Her not being able to articulate her thoughts because of her throat being slashed to the bone only adds to the appearance that it's more than her just snapping. "But wait" you'll say, "what about Beric saying he's less and less every time he comes back?" Read interviews about people in war who see horrible shit and are badly wounded and how that changes them and makes them disconnect from their prior lives. Their life from before those traumatic events becomes like a dream and they start to lose who they were. It's not their rehab (resurrection) that affected them, it was the trauma (their death). "But GRRM said resurrection had a cost!" Words are wind.

Except Beric is totally sane and of sound mind besides his past becoming blurrier each time. This doesn't hold up under scrutiny at all and is a misreading of resurrection and magic all throughout the text ("a sword without a hilt")

Catelyn definitely would be seeking revenge anyway but she was dead for days. If you think the resurrection had no effect on her at all... well, you're wrong!

 

[Gigglepoo]

I'm sure they have to fight with, and eventually find a middle ground with, Hollywood executives that want to play it safe - people who are more concerned with creating and maintaining a lucrative and accessible product. Big shocks, the kinds of things that generate buzz on social media, are great! Nuanced and provocative changes to characters, sophisticated plot lines, etc - probably not very attractive to HBO executives after about s3. They're not going to rock the boat, just ride this money train to its conclusion.

Nuance is the opposite of what I'm asking. D&D are scared to kill Arya because she's popular, even though she was stabbed just like Talisa. D&D are scared to kill Tyrion, even though he betrayed his people's wishes by partnering with the enemy (slavers), a decision that lead to Jon's death.

I think it goes back to S5. Bad things happened throughout and D&D got a lot of shit for two that aren't in the books: Sansa's rape and Shireen's burning. It was after that season, after their failed attempts at non-book grimdark, that they gave the most popular characters plot armor and focused on giving fans exactly what they wanted.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Nuance is the opposite of what I'm asking. D&D are scared to kill Arya because she's popular, even though she was stabbed just like Talisa. D&D are scared to kill Tyrion, even though he betrayed his people's wishes by partnering with the enemy (slavers), a decision that lead to Jon's death.

I think it goes back to S5. Bad things happened throughout and D&D got a lot of shit for two that aren't in the books: Sansa's rape and Shireen's burning. It was after that season, after their failed attempts at non-book grimdark, that they gave the most popular characters plot armor and focused on giving fans exactly what they wanted.

I think the Sansa thing was less that it wasn't in the books and more how it was handled. Shireen was way beyond the pale though.

 

[Atraveller]

I think the Sansa thing was less that it wasn't in the books and more how it was handled. Shireen was way beyond the pale though.

I still couldn't believe Petyr, the 5D chess master that had a spy network of his own, did not know what kind of person Ramsay Bolton, son of the warden of the North, was. He gave away his key to the North, and he gained...what? At best house Bolton owes him a favor. Did he believe he could influence Sansa to influence Ramsay to influence Roose from hundreds of leagues away?

Now, Petyr's story is ruined, he'll scheme one final stupid scheme before he gets killed off.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I think the Sansa thing was less that it wasn't in the books and more how it was handled. Shireen was way beyond the pale though.

The books were a shield for D&D. If people were angry, they could deflect blame by pointing at Martin. But they couldn't do that with Sansa or Shireen (even though they tried with the latter).

They're terrified to rock the boat now because they have to answer for what happens. So they took the easy way out. Hence, they're writing like cowards and it's crazy because the show built it's popularity on the shocking deaths of main characters.

The show would be much better if they killed Arya and/or Tyrion. Two characters with dead-end stories (especially Tyrion) would be sacrificed so we once again fear death and understand there are consequences.

Instead there'll kill nothingburger Baelish and applaud themselves for being clever and uncompromising.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I'm surprised they're holding back on the WWs so much. I expected shit to get real with that arc by episode 2.

 

[KahooTs]

Nuance is the opposite of what I'm asking. D&D are scared to kill Arya because she's popular, even though she was stabbed just like Talisa. D&D are scared to kill Tyrion, even though he betrayed his people's wishes by partnering with the enemy (slavers), a decision that lead to Jon's death.

I think it goes back to S5. Bad things happened throughout and D&D got a lot of shit for two that aren't in the books: Sansa's rape and Shireen's burning. It was after that season, after their failed attempts at non-book grimdark, that they gave the most popular characters plot armor and focused on giving fans exactly what they wanted.

I think it is as much reflective of their understanding and what they expected and wanted from the books as much as giving the fandom what they want. They didn't want Stoneheart because they didn't want to make a good character turn bad. Like they steered clear of much of Tyrion's grey.

They just didn't want or expect Jon turning cold and heartless, so he came back the same. They don't want Sansa turning Cersei, so you get the suggestion but nothing meaningful. Dany just a little tyrannical rather than full mad queen. And Tyrion stays Dany's happy little helper rather than playing for himself.

Also I think there's a little bit of deliberately not spoiling the books in there. The two dragons going riderless is stupid, and I think it is likely they haven't and won't sit Tyrion on one partly because they're giving the books that one.

 

[JeffZero]

I'm surprised they're holding back on the WWs so much. I expected shit to get real with that arc by episode 2.

Nah, that's final season material, I think. It'll start with this year's finale and take over the last season.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I think it is as much reflective of their understanding and what they expected and wanted from the books as much as giving the fandom what they want.

"So Dan and Dave, were you cowards, sycophants, or did you just not understand the books?"

It's probably a bit of each.

 

[jett]

Nuance is the opposite of what I'm asking. D&D are scared to kill Arya because she's popular, even though she was stabbed just like Talisa. D&D are scared to kill Tyrion, even though he betrayed his people's wishes by partnering with the enemy (slavers), a decision that lead to Jon's death.

I think it goes back to S5. Bad things happened throughout and D&D got a lot of shit for two that aren't in the books: Sansa's rape and Shireen's burning. It was after that season, after their failed attempts at non-book grimdark, that they gave the most popular characters plot armor and focused on giving fans exactly what they wanted.

The Arya stuff is just a shitty-written scene to create tension. There was zero chance Arya was going to die before going back to Westeros, that's goes for the books well. It's like Dany dying in Essos. It would make multiple seasons completely pointless.

 

[jfkgoblue]

The Arya stuff is just a shitty-written scene to create tension. There was zero chance Arya was going to die before going back to Westeros, that's goes for the books well. It's like Dany dying in Essos. It would make multiple seasons completely pointless.

What about a lot of focus on Robb conquering only to kill him off?

No one having plot armor used to be part of the appeal of this series.

 

[duckroll]

The Arya stuff is just a shitty-written scene to create tension. There was zero chance Arya was going to die before going back to Westeros, that's goes for the books well. It's like Dany dying in Essos. It would make multiple seasons completely pointless.

Dany dying in Essos would make for a better series tbh.

 

[jfkgoblue]

Dany dying in Essos would make for a better series tbh.

Wish Aegon would've killed her and stolen her dragons.

 

[jett]

What about a lot of focus on Robb conquering only to kill him off?

No one having plot armor used to be part of the appeal of this series.

Dany, Jon, Arya and Bran have always had plot armor up the wazoo.

And Robb was never a point of view character in the books. D&D made him a main character because reasons.

Dany dying in Essos would make for a better series tbh.

lol

 

[fuzaco]

What about a lot of focus on Robb conquering only to kill him off?

No one having plot armor used to be part of the appeal of this series.

It had to happen. What else was there for Robb to do? He conquers whole Westeros, and then what? The series ends? He had to die.

 

[Fuzzy]

What about a lot of focus on Robb conquering only to kill him off?

There were still people in Westeros who would care about him dying and give them purpose. Can't say the same if Dany or Arya died while in Essos which is why their deaths there would be pointless.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Having Robb be a main focus made his death scene better. It's better than having someone be killed off that has no character development.

 

[jfkgoblue]

Dany, Jon, Arya and Bran have always had plot armor up the wazoo.

And Robb was never a point of view character in the books. D&D made him a main character because reasons.



lol

Ned and Cat were though.(yeah I know LSH is a thing, but that isn't really Cat and she is only in like 3 chapters total.)

 

[duckroll]

Come on, just humor me. Imagine a GoT where Dany dies in Essos and her dying wish is to see her dream realized. Then Barristan mobilizes all the forces and leads the invasion. They hide the fact that she is dead, and the cover is that only her most trusted advisers are allowed to visit her chamber. When speaking to others through a screen, Missandei is her voice.

 

[BetterThanNothing]

Dany dying in Essos would make for a better series tbh.

Maybe they can kill her off just to resurrect her as a different actress.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Come on, just humor me. Imagine a GoT where Dany dies in Essos and her dying wish is to see her dream realized. Then Barristan mobilizes all the forces and leads the invasion. They hide the fact that she is dead, and the cover is that only her most trusted advisers are allowed to visit her chamber. When speaking to others through a screen, Missandei is her voice.

Would be more interesting in a way tbh. Plus a great twist!

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[jett]

Ned and Cat were though.(yeah I know LSH is a thing, but that isn't really Cat and she is only in like 3 chapters total.)

Ned's death kickstarts the war of the five kings. His death is meaningful. The Red Wedding is also a meaningful event that completely changes the course of the war.

Arya, Dany and Bran dying far away from anywhere without accomplishing anything would be total hack writing.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

I still couldn't believe Petyr, the 5D chess master that had a spy network of his own, did not know what kind of person Ramsay Bolton, son of the warden of the North, was. He gave away his key to the North, and he gained...what? At best house Bolton owes him a favor. Did he believe he could influence Sansa to influence Ramsay to influence Roose from hundreds of leagues away?

I'm actually going to defend D&D a little bit, here. (Can't believe it, myself!)

I may be projecting/hoping, but this is the way I read LF's actions in S5:

LF was looking to become Warden of the North. He installed Sansa in Winterfell (knowing full well about Ramsay's reputation) in order to use her presence there to sway Cersei's attitude toward the Boltons. He expected Stannis and the Boltons to have a hell of a fight, leaving the victor in bad shape. Then, he would swoop in with the Knights of the Vale and take Winterfell. Cersei agreed to name him Warden of the North if he pulled it off.

What he failed to anticipate was Ramsay + 20 good men. That pretty much blew his little plan up, which I actually found refreshing. We saw Littlefinger devise a scheme, and it didn't work. He actually had to go with the flow and settle for less than he had hoped in S6.

 

[jfkgoblue]

Ned's death kickstarts the war of the five kings. His death is meaningful. The Red Wedding is also a meaningful event that completely changes the course of the war.

Arya, Dany and Bran dying far away from anywhere without accomplishing anything would be total hack writing.

Now they have plot armor, they didn't before.

 

[Speevy]

The best development in the Dany plot would be her getting barbecued and she emerges as a different actress.

Then Melisandre brings back Jon but he's a different actor.

 

[duckroll]

Barristan leading the Dothraki? How?

This would obviously assume that she dies after already having grained their full support. They wouldn't know she's dead.

The best development in the Dany plot would be her getting barbecued and she emerges as a different actress.

Then Melisandre brings back Jon but he's a different actor.

This works too.

 

[Gunslinger]

So I guess the TV Euron doesn't know any magic spells or own a kraken to fight the dragons.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Isn't this the first episode they didn't release the name of yet?

 

[jfkgoblue]

So I guess the TV Euron doesn't know any magic spells or own a kraken to fight the dragons.

Maybe a Kraken is how he gets around so quickly. Would make more sense than what we have.

 

[Gunslinger]

Maybe a Kraken is how he gets around so quickly. Would make more sense than what we have.

Or maybe he know magic spells. At least teleportation like the mage from WoW.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

So I guess the TV Euron doesn't know any magic spells or own a kraken to fight the dragons.

Nope. But he's armed with some wicked one-liners and has a lot more fashion sense than book Euron.

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[fuzaco]

Isn't this the first episode they didn't release the name of yet?

They didn't have to, somebody else released it for them.

 

[Maintenance]