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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
Chuckie
Member
This was the book reason. In the show I think Joffrey ordered the killings
I think Joffrey had them killed. I think Tyrion talks to Cersei about it and realizes that it was Joffrey and that she has no control over him sometime in season 2.
MudoSkills
Volcano High Alumnus (Cum Laude)
Although It has been years since I read the books it still overrides what they changed for the show in my memory.
Before this series I forgot that Jon had killed a white walker. I also forgot that Rickon died before the Battle of the Bastards.
Crazy theory Joanna Lannister and Rahella Targaryen swap identities.
Why?
Rahella Targaryen hated her brother Arys and didn't want to marry him so she concocted a plan along with one of her ladies in waiting Joanna Lannister to swap lives. As both were always together and had an almost identical appearance as they grew up both had the opportunity and motivation to swap lives.
Who knew, did they have the motivation and opportunity to pull off this ruse.
Arys Targaryen- Arys was smitten with Joanna Lannister and is rumored to have deflowered her. By having Joanna swap Identities with a person whom he loved Aryes was looking forward to a long and happy marrige with someone got along with as opposed to Rahella who he was said to despise. This deal was something Arys would later come to regret as he was faced with failed births. This would ultimately cause the bad blood between Arys and Tywin and lead to Arys joking about taking liberties with the bride at Tywin and Joanna Lannister (Actually Rahella Targaryen)'s wedding as he was wistfully wondering about what could have been and then the eventual rape of Joanna Lannister (Rahella) that led to the birth of Tyrion Lannister.
Tywin Lannister
Tywin Lannister was one of the most ruthless men in the seven kingdoms and hellbent on restoring his family's honor after the reign of his father Tytos. In the early days he was the hand of King Arys before a falling out and was said to be the most powerful man in the kingdoms as hand of the king.
Contrary to his known nature. Tywin Lannister (a man obsessed with status and power above all else) supposedly married his cousin for love. This is supported by the fact that he smiled on his wedding day. This doesn't make much sense. Tywin was a player of the game of thrones and ambitious to a fault. He would be just the type of person to secretly marry a princess and then try and join house Lannister with House Targaryen as he does by offering Cersi as a match for Prince Rhaegar before being turned down.
This also somewhat explains Tywins treatment of Tyrion and especially his first wife Tysha where Tywin had her raped by his men and then paid for her service. This doesn't sound like the behavior of a man who would marry for love. Yet it starts to make sense when you see it as what it is. Retribution against Arys son for the rape of Tywin's wife whom he did actually love.
Rahella Targaryen
Hated and despised her brother and quickly fell in love with the dashing and brilliant hand of the king. Tywin was also smitten to the point that he even is said to have smiled at his wedding. Rahella wanted to get away from her brother and developed a plan to do so, swapping lives with her ambitious lady in waiting Joanna Lannister who had previously slept with Arys. Given the likely similar apperance of Joanna and Rahella this would have been easy to pull off.
Joanna Lannister
Was just as ambitious as Tywin and wanted to be Queen. This was her way to achieve that.
Circumstantial Evidence
Foreshadowing.
GRRM likes to use history/past events in his world to inform/foreshadow the present. In this case the two key events are "The Dance of the Dragons" and "The marriage of Jeyne Poole to Ramsey Bolton"
The Dance of the Dragons was a war between a Targaryen brother and sister who hated eachother and ultimately went to war with eachother. Dividing House Targaryen and almost ending its rule. If this theory is true there is a paralell with Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Jamie, Cersi and Faegon all reprising various roles of the origional conflict.
The 2nd is the marrige of Jeyne Poole to Ramsey Bolton under the pretense that she was really Arya Stark. Jeyne was origionally a servant girl and when rejecting Tywins proposed offer of Cersi for Rhaegar, Arys rejects it on the grounds that "a man does not marry his heir to his servants daughter." This draws a direct comparison as it shows that Aerys would view Joanna as a servant girl who had been legitimised by subterfuge (just like Jeyne Poole). Ramsey's brutal treatment of Jeyne is also reminiscent of Aerys brutal treatment of Fake Rahella (Joanna) which led to a Kingsguard soilder telling Jamie Lannister something along the lines ofthat "We protect her from everyone else, but not from him"
Other cues
Jamie and Cersi were origionally set to be married to Oberyn Martelland his sister. The Lannisters have little history with the Martells and after his wife's death Tywin rejects the previously organised match. Yet Rhaella wanting to marry her children into Dornish Royalty makes complete sense both due to Rhaella's personal relationship with the martell queen and that the Dornish were fierce Targaryen loyalists and would protect her children.
Jamie and Cersi Lannister often fit many of the cliche's used to describe Targaryens such as two sides of the same coin all the way down to their romantic relationship which was acceptable for Targaryens.
In book 5 Jamie supposedly talks to his mother via an obsidian candle. Obsidian Candles were magic and as we know magic use was typically reserved for those of kings blood. Typically that would refer to Starks and Targaryens but not Lannisters. So how were Jamie and his mother able to have that conversation without some element of royal Linneage?
Found a reddit post with a few useful quotes but they seem to not have pieced this part together. Not sure if i can post it.
GRRM has a wicked sense of humor and making Tyrion the one true king seems like his style.
Chuckie
Member
Rhaella was already giving birth to her first child the year Joanna became her handmaiden. (They were married very young)
The first time Joanna (is rumoured) to have had sex with Aerys was at Jaehaerys' coronation.
Also the remark about the daughter of a servant doesn't makes sense anymore if it is in fact not just the daughter of a servant but secretly the daughter of his sister.
The first time Joanna (is rumoured) to have had sex with Aerys was at Jaehaerys' coronation.
Also the remark about the daughter of a servant doesn't makes sense anymore if it is in fact not just the daughter of a servant but secretly the daughter of his sister.
elrechazado
Banned
Neither of those things happened in the books though.
MudoSkills
Volcano High Alumnus (Cum Laude)
I know - I think I might have dementia because when something has only happened in the show I'm just as likely to forget it as I am to remember it.
For example: me forgetting that the money went to King's Landing when I posted in this thread the day after watching last week's episode, but apparently turning to someone as the scene was happening and saying 'it's just the grain, the money already went'.
bitbydeath
Member
I'm subscribing to this theory,
as the trailer next episode shows white walkers getting involved,
Don't follow much news about the show, what's the story behind the switch to 7 episodes? They just wanted more budget per episodes? I'm not really complaining because I come to the show for popcorn entertainment so rushed isn't the right word but holy crap the pacing of this season has been fast compared to how the show used to be. Everyone has there own teleporter now.
1. While that is true. How do you explain the 17 year gap between Rhaegar and Viserys only being filled with miscarriages. After creating a healthy Rhaegar likely in one go, And then 2 healthy children in quick succession with Viserys and Dany. Seems unusual.
2. Joanna first had sex with Aerys in 259 and left the court in 264 those years are long enough to formulate the switching plot.
If true it would also be a callback to the Ruse Jon plays when he swap's Gilly and Val's baby. GRRM really does like these fake identity plots.
3. The remark makes sense because it is a targeted remark designed to insult and hurt Tywin.
There is also the probability that a switch back occured around 273.
After the death of Aegon Targaryen, Aerys is quoted as saying "The Gods will not suffer to see a bastard on the Iron Throne"
This quote is alledgedly contextualized as Aerys accusing Rhaella of cheating. Yet what if Aerys new something else was afoot. He knew that Aegon and many of the other misscarridges were not pure Targaryens but were actually Bastards carried by the real Joanna Lannister.
Its likely nothing just BS speculation. But i enjoy the theory so im sticking with it until proven otherwise.
Sony
Nintendo
He is a really shitty blacksmith if that was his idea of a war hammer though.
It was comically oversized and not at all shaped correctly to bite into armor, more of a maul or a sledge than a war hammer.
This is what real war hammers looked like:
The whole point of a war hammer is to concentrate the impact on a small area to defeat armor. Also you have to be able to use it on a horse, so a giant 2 hand maul was out of the question.
Too bad Westeros doesn't have a Home Depot.
Chuckie
Member
Joanna being the mother would make that gap even less easy to explain. So Joanna birthed Rhaegar...but that is not possible because it was Rhaella who was (when Aerys was having the so called affair with Joanna)
For this to work, Joanna had to give her baby to the rightful queen...but then switch places with said queen. In the meanwhile Rhaella goes to Tywin, have two babies with him, Joanna is having stillbirths, but then suddenly giving birth to two healthy babies again.
Yeah could be.
The fact that he uses the word bastard means he think it is not his, not that it is his, but with Joanna instead of Rhealla. I mean why would he say that...he is very aware of this switch of yours right?
I am not really sure of your timeline to be honest. When did they 'switch'?
What I am pretty sure of is that your suggestion that Rhaegar is Joanna's is impossible. She already gave birth before there could even have been a switch. Unless they were switched as children, but I am not sure what the point of that would be.
I know I shouldn't care, but things like this interview annoy me so much:
NO. NO HE IS NOT. He gave up all titles, birthright and ownership of land when he took the black. He serves the Night's Watch and nobody else.
As the actor you should know this. If not, you should have had a writer or director drill it into your head. It's a fundamental part of your characters background for fooks sake.
It's like nobody on this show remembers anything from pre-season 6 anymore.
NO. NO HE IS NOT. He gave up all titles, birthright and ownership of land when he took the black. He serves the Night's Watch and nobody else.
As the actor you should know this. If not, you should have had a writer or director drill it into your head. It's a fundamental part of your characters background for fooks sake.
It's like nobody on this show remembers anything from pre-season 6 anymore.
Chuckie
Member
Maybe Sam is actually 'spoiling' shit for us. If the Army of the Dead is permanently defeated, the Night Watch will be no longer nescessary and everybody will be 'pardoned'.
This will make Sam head of house Tarly. The actor already know that is why it is on his mind
Lord of Castamere
Member
CLEGANEBOWL
Human Trashcan
Banned
GET MOTHERFUCKIN HYPE
The worth in that quote is that it is foreshadowing Tyrion becoming king.
The thing with Joanna will be she was the true player, while everyone is thinking she's a victim. It is quite masterfully done by GRRM, how he has everyone thinking she's virtuous when everything he's given about her has her as manipulative.
She had Aerys locked down to the point Rhaella stepped in and ended it. She moved onto the next most powerful man in the realm, and ruled him. And soon enough everyone started saying he was really the most powerful and truly ran the realm. Aerys was jealous of Tywin getting the girl, his insult towards Joanna was one of spite, a "fuck you, you're old now and hold no power over me anymore." Then she went to his bed that night and proved him full of shit.
Tywin was too afraid to confront it because he was too weak to face up to the truth. Tyrion and Shae. So Tywin just sulked, as he did with his sister when she said Tyrion was most like him. Tears are a woman's weapon Joanna taught Cersei, Shae knew this, she worked them to prevent Tyrion sending her away, and then the waterworks she put on in the trial had every man there wanting to comfort her according to Tyrion. Tywin was there and Shae ends up in his bed. Tywin is susceptible to the same manipulations of young beautiful women that Tyrion is. And Joanna was the best of them all. Until comes Sansa, the younger more beautiful queen, to make her husband the most powerful man in the realm and rule through him.
bangbang i'm a timpani
Banned
just curious: when book 6 comes out, are you going to read it?
Ocarina_117
Banned
Chuckie
Member
If my eyes are still working, then yes. I am already 40 though, so chances are they won't.
You'll be over 50 by the time it comes out, so yeah, solid chance.
ill finish it the day it comes out then be sad
Gendry could make it based only on fan-favoritism. I think the three amigos are all biting it, they serve no purpose.
lol so fans are literally just making shit up now
lol so fans are literally just making shit up now
NekoFever
Member
It was about as subtle as Gendry's hammer to the goldcloak's face.
They should make it a reality show and film like a bunch of different endings to the episode, then have a live vote to see who dies.
Human Trashcan
Banned
Chuckie
Member
I was thinking 70.
Human Trashcan
Banned
I too am looking forward to reading Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson's A Dream of Spring in a nursing home.
I'm talking about Arya in the show.
tarly refusing to bend the knee makes no sense. that man has changed allegiances many times including 2 episodes ago. not to mention when he supported a usurper in Renly. he also fought for Aerys against Robert. he should be educated enough in history to know that Dany was born in westeros. i dont buy that he's so racist against dothraki he's willing to die and let his family go extinct for it.
they should have had Dany roast the high lords without even giving the chance to bend the knee. would have made more sense for Tarly and would have added more ammo to the "is she crazy?" angle they are going for
they should have had Dany roast the high lords without even giving the chance to bend the knee. would have made more sense for Tarly and would have added more ammo to the "is she crazy?" angle they are going for
Human Trashcan
Banned
you jest but if lindaaaa has anything to do with actually writing the future books i'd rather they not come out
"now"
Like it's some new phenomenon.
Randyll is the easiest person to understand: he's a fucken racist. Ain't bending knees to no foreign whores and Dothraki hordes.
she was born in westeros, its brought up on the show all the time. dothraki maybe, but cersei allied with with euron and the ironborn, who geographically speaking, randyll has more reason to hate.
BuggyDClown
Member
To marry Sansa, and fullfill the wish of joining house stark and baratheon. They will carry the stark name and lineage forward. She will be the new warden of the north.
Because fuck the magic of the wall keeping the WW from crossing it.
D&D wanted S7 to be 10 episodes and be the last one but HBO wanted more seasons (they said 10 seasons back in 2015) so they did this instead.
I was really surprised they didn't mention it while Tarly was going on about foreign this and foreign that. Unless he holds grudges from his ancestors and thinks Targaryens are all foreign.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Spoiler/screenshot from the trailer for next week's episode (just saw this on the ASOIAF subreddit):
This location from the E06 trailer looks...familiar.
This location from the E06 trailer looks...familiar.
H.Cornerstone
Member
Latvian Hitman
Member
Jesus. S7 is warp-speed insanity as it is. I can't imagine how ridiculous this thing would have played out if they had tried to cram it all into one 10-episode season. The difference in pacing between S7 and the six seasons that came before it is already staggering.