Support NeoGAF

[John Dunbar]

Maybe we'll find out why she did it? Lyanna wasn't stupid. The fact that she knew Robert would kill Jon/Aegon tells me she's aware of her actions.

Robert would have come after Rhaegar regardless because he would have seen Rhaegar's action of giving the blue roses to Lyanna as the disrespecting his honour.

Bethroted is basically a formal engagement to be married. She was Roberts. Period.

The war would have happened, because the Targaryan prince started it and brought dishonour to House Stark and Baratheon.

Aerys just made it much worse, much faster.

there's no guarantee the starks or jon arryn would have gone to war for just a kidnapping, and especially not an elopement. robert might have (though he did not until actual deaths happened and his life was at risk), but he could not have done it alone.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Sam will read about it in an old dusty tome and make it happen.

that's what i was thinking

that way sam can ensure the futures of houses greyjoy and greyworm

I actually know this! Technically yes, but not really. (Had a surgery that could effect ejaculation, and was told to look into freezing my sperm, I didn't, and ended up with said side effect (would still orgasm but not ejaculate) for a while))

Human body is weird! The brain controls all sorts of weird stuff!

TIL, thanks

now i only need to know whether eunuchs (any kind) can orgasm from prostate stimulation

I kind of love how the reveal that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love and eloped basically puts the entire ASOIAF saga as an extended "and that's why you always leave a note!" lesson from Arrested Development.

Think about it, if Lyanna just told her dad and brothers that she was running away to marry Rhaegar no one would have gone down to KL to get murdered by crazy ol Aerys and then Robert's rebellion wouldn't have kicked off.

if robert had known that lyanna had willingly spurned him for Prince Dreamy Prettyboy that would probably only have made him madder tbqh

 

[hydrophilic attack]

He's like Trump, keeps failing upwards until he eventually sits the Iron Throne.

plus he owes everything to daddy and wants to fuck his female relative

 

[badcrumble]

I think the alternative to a Stark/Baratheon/Tully/Arryn rebellion would ultimately just be exchanging the Starks for the Martells, who would no doubt be ripshit furious at the annulment. It might honestly have been a much bloodier one because it'd cover much more of the continent. But the rebellion was already well underway when Jon was born (nine months after that wedding), obviously.

 

[Anoregon]

if robert had known that lyanna had willingly spurned him for Prince Dreamy Prettyboy that would probably only have made him madder tbqh

Yeah, but Robert being mad that his lady dumped him isn't enough to start a rebellion.

 

[gun_haver]

I'm kind of surprised that people are responding a lot more positively to this episode than the others this year. Maybe it isn't the same people who are critical of the new style of the show, but I thought this episode shared all of the problems this season has had in general. I can't be bothered writing a treatise on what those are right now (maybe another time, there's lots of time til next season), but for what it's worth, I thought the writing was still pretty janked up, they won't let up with the epic dragon entrances, and the show just feels kind of forced and crowd-pleasing in a way it never used to, pretty much in every single scene at this point.

 

[demosthenes]

It's a very interesting alt history. Would Ned and Roberts friendship survive?

 

[badcrumble]

Yeah, but Robert being mad that his lady dumped him isn't enough to start a rebellion.

The books, at least, make it clear enough that there were a bunch of other simmering tensions as-is and that it was more about the Mad King and generation-old Lannister/Tyrell/Martell drama than it was about Lyanna Stark. She was the spark that lit the kindling but the kindling was already there.

 

[The Greek Freak]

I think the alternative to a Stark/Baratheon/Tully/Arryn rebellion would ultimately just be exchanging the Starks for the Martells, who would no doubt be ripshit furious at the annulment. It might honestly have been a much bloodier one because it'd cover much more of the continent. But the rebellion was already well underway when Jon was born (nine months after that wedding), obviously.

Yes but the Martells wouldn't have 3 other houses ready to join.

 

[jfkgoblue]

I'm kind of surprised that people are responding a lot more positively to this episode than the others this year. Maybe it isn't the same people who are critical of the new style of the show, but I thought this episode shared all of the problems this season has had in general. I can't be bothered writing a treatise on what those are right now (maybe another time, there's lots of time til next season), but for what it's worth, I thought the writing was still pretty janked up, they won't let up with the epic dragon entrances, and the show just feels kind of forced and crowd-pleasing in a way it never used to, pretty much in every single scene at this point.

This episode felt like classic GOT verses the rushed stuff we got earlier this season. That is why I really liked it.

 

[Blue Ninja]

This season had some stupid shit, but goddamn if it's not entertainment. It's pure fan service at this point. Littlefinger's death had me fucking cheering.

The Targaryen sex was hilarious. I love that D&D gave the shippers what they wanted, but rubbed the facts they either didn't know or simply chose to ignore, right in their faces.

 

[The Greek Freak]

I've been thinking (yeah I know, sorry). Early in the show incest is bad, Brann gets thrown out a window because he sees Jamie and Cersei having sex. I don't remember if it is LF and Varys or Ned who sends out pamphlets/ravens about their incestuous relationship trying to discredit them.

Is the problem the incest or is the problem that the kids are not Roberts?

The reason I'm asking is how are D&D going to deal with Jon and Danys incest, how are the rest of the realm react when they find out that they are related?

The realm didn't really like that the Queen were fucking her brother, is it okay now because both Dany and Jon are Targaryens?

Were are the consequences? What is going on...

The targs married siblings for a long ass time noone said shit.

Every noble house has cousin fuckers noone cares. (Happened all the time in real history as well).

People only cared because the kid's weren't Roberts, and everyone hated Cercei/Joff/Kingslayer anyways.


People are making this a much bigger deal than it actually is.

 

[Staccat0]

This episode felt like classic GOT verses the rushed stuff we got earlier this season. That is why I really liked it.

Still felt a little crammed, but yeah it had some nice dialogue and some fun character moments.

Tyrion offering his sister the wine was the best unspoken moment of the season.

 

[m_shortpants]

Of course the dragon shot blue flames now.

Doh.

Anyway, why did Tyrion look so upset at Jon and Dany obviously having sex?

 

[Lonestar]

Trying to remember the order of Ned's Dad and Brother after Lyanna's "disappearance."

Did Brandon head down to KL demanding to see/kill Rhaegar for "abducting" his sister first? Was it simply to save his sister, or was it because she was arraigned to be married to Robert. Was it love of family or attempting to protect the house's honor/promises.


Realizing that I believe Lyanna Mormont only got 1 or 2 scenes, all in the 1st episode or 2 :/

 

[m_shortpants]

I didn't really get that. I thought she was just fucking with him. If she had killed him, her plan to propose a fake truce to reconquer the South would have blown up.

Also I still think she's lying to everyone about her child.

It's Euron's, just to add insult to injury.

 

[Vixdean]

Trying to remember the order of Ned's Dad and Brother after Lyanna's "disappearance."

Did Brandon head down to KL demanding to see/kill Rhaegar for "abducting" his sister first? Was it simply to save his sister, or was it because she was arraigned to be married to Robert. Was it love of family or attempting to protect the house's honor/promises.


Realizing that I believe Lyanna Mormont only got 1 or 2 scenes, all in the 1st episode or 2 :/

Brandon went there first and was immediately arrested by Aerys who was already suspicious of a northern plot to rebel. Lyanna's "kidnapping" only served as a pretext for him to go to King's Landing, and knowing the truth probably wouldn't have changed anything. Then his dad Rickard went there to demand his release, and they were both executed by Aerys. At that point nothing else mattered. Whether Robert took up arms to support his best friend Ned who's father and brother were just murdered, or to "save" Lyanna from Rhaegar wouldn't really have changed the course of events.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Can we all agree that Dany's infertility is a plot hole?

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

I kind of love how the reveal that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love and eloped basically puts the entire ASOIAF saga as an extended "and that's why you always leave a note!" lesson from Arrested Development.

Think about it, if Lyanna just told her dad and brothers that she was running away to marry Rhaegar no one would have gone down to KL to get murdered by crazy ol Aerys and then Robert's rebellion wouldn't have kicked off.

I don't blame Lyanna for not telling her family, they would have stopped her. She really couldn't have expected causing a full blown realm-wide war over one eloping, I think it just got too out of control for anyone to fix after the Mad King got involved.

 

[H.Cornerstone]

Weird question:

am I correct to assume that there was some sort of Magic in the Valyrian Freehold that prevented the children there from having negative consequences from all the inbreeding that occured?

Seemed like as soon as they came over to Westeros you started seeing issues with that, or maybe the history just doesn't go back that far?

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Well, there it is.

Can't believe I actually called LF getting waxxed last week. The Wall coming down has always been fairly obvious as far as 'made for TV' logic goes. The books might have a different route eventually.

And thank god, they finally said it... during a montage of him banging his aunt. Edit: oh, it was Aegon, I misheard. Another one of those.

 

[jfkgoblue]

Can we all agree that Dany's infertility is a plot hole?

It's a continuity error in the show, she outright says that she thinks she is barren due to something that never happened in the show.

It's just foreshadowing Jon knocking her up.

 

[electroshockwave]

Weird question:

am I correct to assume that there was some sort of Magic in the Valyrian Freehold that prevented the children there from having negative consequences from all the inbreeding that occured?

Seemed like as soon as they came over to Westeros you started seeing issues with that, or maybe the history just doesn't go back that far?

The Valyrian Freehold was a massive empire. I'm not sure why you think they'd be inbred.

 

[jfkgoblue]

Weird question:

am I correct to assume that there was some sort of Magic in the Valyrian Freehold that prevented the children there from having negative consequences from all the inbreeding that occured?

Seemed like as soon as they came over to Westeros you started seeing issues with that, or maybe the history just doesn't go back that far?

The main theory is that the Valeryians had pure genetics that didn't have any negative mutations so incest didn't have the same effect that it does for everyone else.

Incest is a problem genetically speaking due to horrible mutations more likely to come out with similar genetic makeup.

 

[Memento Mori]

Half of Targaryens being insane is a fairly negative mutation.

 

[demosthenes]

Weird question:

am I correct to assume that there was some sort of Magic in the Valyrian Freehold that prevented the children there from having negative consequences from all the inbreeding that occured?

Seemed like as soon as they came over to Westeros you started seeing issues with that, or maybe the history just doesn't go back that far?

I believe the Targ's were only marrying in the family at the start when they came over because they didn't trust anyone. They eventually began to marry outside.

 

[jfkgoblue]

Half of Targaryens being insane is a fairly negative mutation.

It's not half of them being insane, it's just a saying other people have. It isn't much different than kings being insane in real history.

I believe the Targ's were only marrying in the family at the start when they came over because they didn't trust anyone. They eventually began to marry outside.

They only married outside a couple of times, they did it to bring Dorne into the kingdom and when there wasn't a Targaryan daughter to marry the Prince too(such as with Rhaegar).

 

[Azzanadra]

Overall this season was marginally better than the fifth, thanks to this great episode. But still, the show isn't nowhere near the quality of the first seasons.

I disagree. How can this season be anything if not the worst? Season 5 had a grand total of one and a half decent arcs, being Jon's tenure as Lord Commander and Stannis' plot before he left the wall. Sure there was shit like Dorne and the excessive torture porn, but season 5 had some positives. Heck, it even had the better White Walker battle.

What positives does S7 have aside from a few cool looking, if illogical set pieces? There is no single arc I can point to as being even "decent" or "okay", they were all varying degrees of terrible.

 

[Anoregon]

The Wall coming down has always been fairly obvious as far as 'made for TV' logic goes. The books might have a different route eventually.

I think the wall coming down (as well as the NK somehow getting a hold of a dragon) is absolutely an inevitability in the books as well. They are both things I've been expecting for years.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I really thought Bran's mark would lead to the Wall falling. I wonder if that will ever be brought up again.

 

[Memento Mori]

I think the wall coming down (as well as the NK somehow getting a hold of a dragon) is absolutely an inevitability in the books as well. They are both things I've been expecting for years.

Definitely. The White Walkers have never been a real threat when they've had no way of getting to the rest of Westeros.

 

[rocketskates]

Of course the dragon shot blue flames now.

Doh.

Anyway, why did Tyrion look so upset at Jon and Dany obviously having sex?

I saw this article.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...aenerys-season-7-episode-7-finale-dragon-wolf

I dunno how I feel about it

 

[Severance]

I don't blame Lyanna for not telling her family, they would have stopped her. She really couldn't have expected causing a full blown realm-wide war over one eloping, I think it just got too out of control for anyone to fix after the Mad King got involved.

To add to that, I wonder if Lyanna was as much a believer in the Prince that was Promised prophecy as Rhaegar. The important of such a prophecy for the future of Westeros could have outweighed any potential blowback they foresaw coming. To them, to not fulfill their part in it could doom all of Westeros to oblivion.

 

[jfkgoblue]

I saw this article.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...aenerys-season-7-episode-7-finale-dragon-wolf

I dunno how I feel about it

I doubt GRRM's original outline has anything to do with that scene.

 

[Rentahamster]

Is there a point to the WW army infiltrating The Wall at Eastwatch? Why not just go to one of the other points on The Wall that isn't defended? Not like the defense put up much of a defense anyway. Did they want the Night's Watch to spread the word that they're coming?

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

Is there a point to the WW army infiltrating The Wall at Eastwatch? Why not just go to one of the other points on The Wall that isn't defended? Not like the defense put up much of a defense anyway. Did they want the Night's Watch to spread the word that they're coming?

They were already on the march on east watch. They're original plan was probably swarm the edge of the wall but with viserion dead they got a better battering ram.

In the books cotter pyke when he was trying to save the wildlings he mentioned that there were dead things in the water. Nobody really knows what a wight can do in the water

 

[H.Cornerstone]

I believe the Targ's were only marrying in the family at the start when they came over because they didn't trust anyone. They eventually began to marry outside.

I thought in Valryian tradition brothers/sisters married each other in order to keep themselves "pure." So how did they prevent themselves from all being insane like a lot of what you saw in Westeros?

 

[WaffleTaco]

I really thought Bran's mark would lead to the Wall falling. I wonder if that will ever be brought up again.

That was so the White Walkers could enter the Children of the Forest's cave.

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

I thought in Valryian tradition brothers/sisters married each other in order to keep themselves "pure." So how did they prevent themselves from all being insane like a lot of what you saw in Westeros?

They don't. There's a saying when a targaryen is born, its either brilliance or madness. I think it was barristan said that. Rest his soul

Some targaryens married for love as well.

All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies when he might have made fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire and grief.

- Barristan Selmy

 

[Lonestar]

Is there a point to the WW army infiltrating The Wall at Eastwatch? Why not just go to one of the other points on The Wall that isn't defended? Not like the defense put up much of a defense anyway. Did they want the Night's Watch to spread the word that they're coming?

They were on that side of the continent, and have been for awhile. It was the most direct route there, and it didn't take long for Gendry to sprint it. Like you said, the Night's Watch had no defense for a dragon. They also died quickly, either falling from the Wall, or being crushed under it at Eastwatch. No time to release ravens, and they probably have none at the top of the wall.

The only way anyone would know, would be Bran seeing it through the sight (he "appeared" to be there viewing it already, so he should know) or wait for Tormund/Beric/other survivors on top of the wall, to run all the way to the next castle/exit, which could be days of running, assuming most of the other castles at the wall have people/ravens.

The wildlings were supposed to go and man the castles at the Wall, but they really only mentioned Eastwatch. But I feel like the other castles got people too, because there weren't thousands of people at Eastwatch.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

I saw this article.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...aenerys-season-7-episode-7-finale-dragon-wolf

I dunno how I feel about it

earlier on this thread, just after the episode aired, someone mentioned that we don't know what kind of deal Tyrion made with Cersei, and her immediate turn was rather out of character leading up to her revealing as such to Jaimie.

So with the aid of that post, I'd say we're all off in assume jealousy (though it might be there anyway), and that Tyrion was actually contemplating telling that he betrayed his queen, all because of some bastard not being able to lie. Which of course, the people of King's Landing excel at (a point made over and over in the first season and now here again), to the point that Bran even call Robert's Rebellion a lie.

I doubt our favorite dwarf is going to make it to see that spring in his wine garden.
I also doubt New Robbert, all-rowing and running triathlon champion of the forever, Nedry, is going to be able to do the same. Though something about 'sins of the father' comes to mind in his case. No point in bringing that character back if they don't intend to do something with him.

Six more episodes, kids. And then either our rewatch begins, or we let it rest.

 

[manfestival]

I am more of a fan of listening to the commentary now that they have taken the helm over the books. Curious to see what they do for when they finally reveal to aegon his identity. I mean they have already said that it is going to lead to conflict so now to wait

 

[Version 3.0]

wait for Tormund/Beric/other survivors on top of the wall, to run all the way to the next castle/exit, which could be days of running

Not the way this season went. I wouldn't have been surprised if the next scene were Tormund arriving at Winterfell (out of breath from running the whole way in a few hours) to announce that the Wall was down.

 

[Gigglepoo]

That was so the White Walkers could enter the Children of the Forest's cave.

I know that much. But did the mark remove the magic that protected that tree? If yes, does it destroy any other magic? I thought this was the case and the Wall had similar magic.

But maybe it didn't destroy the tree's protective magic. Maybe it was a honing beacon and helped the Night King to find that tree. If that's true, can the NK still track Bran? Is Bran so important that he must die so the NK can win?

Or was the mark just important to get into the tree and serves no further purpose?

 

[John Dunbar]

Brandon went there first and was immediately arrested by Aerys who was already suspicious of a northern plot to rebel. Lyanna's "kidnapping" only served as a pretext for him to go to King's Landing, and knowing the truth probably wouldn't have changed anything. Then his dad Rickard went there to demand his release, and they were both executed by Aerys. At that point nothing else mattered. Whether Robert took up arms to support his best friend Ned who's father and brother were just murdered, or to "save" Lyanna from Rhaegar wouldn't really have changed the course of events.

unless i am completely mistaken, aerys also wanted robert along with ned. so it was also self-defense as far as robert was concerned.

 

[WaffleTaco]

I know that much. But did the mark remove the magic that protected that tree? If yes, does it destroy any other magic? I thought this was the case and the Wall had similar magic.

But maybe it didn't destroy the tree's protective magic. Maybe it was a honing beacon and helped the Night King to find that tree. If that's true, can the NK still track Bran? Is Bran so important that he must die so the NK can win?

Or was the mark just important to get into the tree and serves no further purpose?

Pretty sure it was just your last comment. They needed to get Bran back to Winterfell

 

[jett]

I was looking through TWOIAF and noticed this passage in the Long Night chapter:

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children - lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River - to put side their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

So is there a literal song of ice and fire? Maybe that's why Ed Sheeran was brought on board!

 

[Faddy]

Can we all agree that Dany's infertility is a plot hole?

Yes, this is a plothole.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

I saw this article.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...aenerys-season-7-episode-7-finale-dragon-wolf

I dunno how I feel about it

I don't see it...

Tyrion's issues with Dany this season are about getting her to be less impulsive and to be a better player and ruler who sees the big picture.

Dany lost a dragon due to Jon, Jon screwed up negotions with Cersei, Tyrion being concerned about a Jon and Dany romance during the Great War (and then the war with Cersei after) makes a lot more sense than the unrequited love angle that the show hasn't really established.

 

[Gigglepoo]

What will be a bigger revelation to Jon:

1) He's half Targaryan and half Stark
2) He's the rightful king of Westeros
3) He's boning his aunt