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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 - Sundays on HBO

It's not 100% confirmed on the show, but it's damn near close.

I don't know that that's really true for average viewers who haven't seen it on the internet. I'd be curious to know how much the average viewer could even repeat back regarding the events that led up to Robert's Rebellion.

Either way- you can definitely expect an explicit reveal to be forthcoming on the show, for sure.
 
Bran's actor frankly got a shit role.

While the likes of Arya travel all over Westeros and beyond and have many scenes working with great actors with plenty of sword fighting and action scenes, Bran has sat in a sled in the snow for 4 seasons, with the same 2-3 characters.

Now he's supposed to be aloof and emotionless now that he's actually in civilization again.

I think what they were going for is a Dr Manhattan-like detachment from the petty affairs of mortals, because he can see everything. But instead he comes across as... well, a bad actor reading lines badly. Just like how the show badly missed the mark with Arya now supposedly being an emotionless killer, they just cannot pull this shit off at all. Everyone seems to just be getting more stoic as the series goes on and it's kind of a drag, even Tyrion has been a bore this season.
 

carlsojo

Member
Euron's pirate fleet is probably much, much faster than Grey Worm's fleet. It's not clear how long Grey Worm had even been there before they arrived.



Also, Bronn riding alongside Tarley and Jaime... is he basically a general now too?
 

jfkgoblue

Member
I think what they were going for is a Dr Manhattan-like detachment from the petty affairs of mortals, because he can see everything. But instead he comes across as... well, a bad actor reading lines badly. Just like how the show badly missed the mark with Arya now supposedly being an emotionless killer, they just cannot pull this shit off at all. Everyone seems to just be getting more stoic as the series goes on and it's kind of a drag, even Tyrion has been a bore this season.
Once they ran out of source material, and decided to not use the source material they had, Tyrion got a lot less interesting.
 

mantidor

Member
Even Jon (who isn't the sharpest tool) pointed out that Dany could have already taken King's Landing. Tyrion's moves aren't meant to win the war. It would be quicker, have fewer casualities, and demand less risk if they had just attacked King's Landing from the onset instead of dicking around like they have been.

This is still silly though. Even alt shift x pointed out how it makes no sense to not just storm Kings Landing, she has three dragons, she could take the Red Keep with minimal loss of lives. The siege sounds actually worst because they are going to starve Kings Landing population.
 
He was getting his forehead carved in the sept when *BOOM*! Also, did you know he's gay? You might have missed that on the show. I think he was gay. Maybe. It's hard to tell. That was his only trait. Awesomely written character!

I'm still kind of upset that Oliver saying that he saw Loras' birthmark on his thigh was enough proof for him being gay. Like what the fuck, squires help their lords dress, some even bathe them. Of course the squire would know about the fucking birthmark on his master's leg.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
This is still silly though. Even alt shift x pointed out how it makes no sense to not just storm Kings Landing, she has three dragons, she could take the Red Keep with minimal loss of lives. The siege sounds actually worst because they are going to starve Kings Landing population.

Sorry, I should have said storm the red keep specifically. Dragons can attack with precision so it would be quick and easy to take out Cercei. And a siege would be terrible for the commonfolk, the very people Tyrion professes to want to save. Plus, even though Tyrion said he didn't want to use the Unsullied at King's Landing becaue they are foreign, he was fine sending them to Casterly Rock. Tyrion is a hyprocite and an idiot.

I'm still kind of upset that Oliver saying that he saw Loras' birthmark on his thigh was enough proof for him being gay. Like what the fuck, squires help their lords dress, some even bathe them. Of course the squire would know about the fucking birthmark on his master's leg.

It's crazy that no one on set realized how stupid this was.
 

zethren

Banned
No, we as book readers have surmised it. The show has not revealed Rhaegar to be Jon's father yet, only Lyanna as his mother. The average viewer has no idea about R+L=J unless they've seen it on the internet.

It kinda did though. Those were Rhaegar's soldiers outside the TOJ that Ned fought through. Did they not also mention that Rhaegar ordered them to protect Lyanna? They pretty much said it without saying it.
 

NandoGip

Member
So is it confirmed that Bran and the old man three eyed raven is the same person? His life is a loop essentially. The tree where they met could be a mystical place that was outside of time allowing them to meet each other. IDK how much evidence there is to support it

Also his ability to see timelines would explain the weird thing he said to Sansa. He knew he had to say it for the domino effect it would cause.
 

Lonestar

I joined for Erin Brockovich discussion
Just to see if any sort of math checks out on if Euron's fleet could make it over there in those "2 weeks".

Old sailing ships seem to max out at 10 knots, which is like 11.5 mph. Sailing non-stop in those 2 weeks would put you at around 3800 miles of distance. Question now is, how big is westeros, length and width.

Thus the continent stretches for about 3,000 miles from north to south and for some 900 miles at its widest point east to west.
taken from wikipedia.

So dragonstone/kingslanding and Casterly Rock are about the same "elevation" on the north/south scaled (opposite side of the continent), and are past halfway down the length of the continent (if you consider the wall to be the northernmost point). So I figure 1000 miles down the coast, 900 miles west past dorne, and another 1000 miles up the coast. 2900 miles. Could that be feasible? If the northern point is actually well above the wall (and still is 3000 miles long), the trip down the coasts ends up being even lesser in distance.


Of course, the "fortnight" was talking about repaying the Iron Bank, and Jaime's run on Highgarden (a land battle) seems to be what that is about.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
So is it confirmed that Bran and the old man three eyed raven is the same person? His life is a loop essentially. The tree where they met could be a mystical place that was outside of time allowing them to meet each other. IDK how much evidence there is to support it

Also his ability to see timelines would explain the weird thing he said to Sansa. He knew he had to say it for the domino effect it would cause.

It sure sounded like he was saying that he and the old man were the same person. The original Three-Eyed Raven wasn't Brynden Rivers on the show so they could very well make it so Bran was mentored by his older self. Why not? There aren't any rules anymore!

There is confirmation on the original three eyed raven's identity, and it is not future Bran. The original three eyed raven is Brynden Rivers, aka Bloodraven, a Targaryen bastard.

That's book cannon but (as far as I know) Brynden Rivers is never mentioned on the show.
 
Two random comments:

1) It is mildly annoying how in fashion black and silver has become in Westeros.

GRRM put a lot of effort into describing the heraldry and colours of the great houses of Westeros and this season this has been thrown out with every one wearing black and silver.

Dany and all her advisors wear black and silver, even though House Targaryen colours are red and black.

Cersei is wearing black and silver instead of Lannister red and gold.

Sansa is wearing black and silver instead of other colours (ok mostly brown) we've seen associated with the North and house Stark.

Everyone is wearing the same thing now. It's weird and dull.
This bothers me, too, but I don't want to get any blowback about how "pissed off" it makes me. It is merely mildly annoying in a "roll your eyes" kind of way. I understand that everyone wearing the colorful outfits of the various houses would be kind of ridiculous (Roose and Ramsay Bolton might not have been so intimidating in the family color of pink), but in the books literally nobody but the Night's Watch wears black.

Then Martin decided to ignore his editors and we got garbage like Brienne wasting a full book fucking around looking in a place every reader knew was wrong
Did his editor ever make the assertion that Brienne's journey should have been different? If Brienne had gone in the "right" direction (which is? what should be happening with Brienne instead?), we wouldn't have the Septon chapters, which were great.

Theon's chapters were fantastic. Bran's and Davos's were good too. The rest of it really made me question why I still read this series.

The 3 primary ASOIAF characters - Jon, Dany, and Tyrion - have some of the most plodding arcs I've seen in recent fantasy series. It is on par with the middle Wheel of Time books, where it feels like there was no sense of purpose in where GRRM was taking the story. The same things he took 10+ chapters to tell for each of the characters in AFFC/ADWD could have been done in 3-4 chapters in the first three books.

I also got the feeling that he was just adding things without have any sense of how it was going to go down. The Greyjoys, Martells, Aegon, etc are characters I personally find either completely flat (Arianne) or caroony (Euron). So far, with what we know of TWOW, there's no indication that things will improve. And while Martin's writing is easy to read, it's not some stellar prose that makes keeps me invested even as the pacing is slowed to a crawl with no interesting developments.

I loved ASOIAF and, when I read the first three books several years back, I thought this was by far the greatest series I'd ever read. Then Feast came out, followed by Dance, and it has fallen considerably imo. I'm still astounded by how opinions on them have changed to them being accepted more in the last 5 years or so. Many works of fantasy are better, and I personally think the show adaptation is stonger than the books.
One of the reasons that the books are so slow to come out is not just because GRRM types with one finger on an antiquated word processor, not on the weekends (you probably don't work 7 days a week, either), and only at home, etc., but because he writes each POV separately and only compiles them at the end. He might already have Dany's entire arc written to the very last moment, but he still hasn't started with Stannis. It's why he might not see his story is meandering at times. And this is just the stuff that makes the final draft; he infamously writes out various ideas at length before deciding they don't work and discarding them to start over.
Mishandled is the understatement of the century. And yeah NWC is great but Jamie is not a good show character and hasn't been for seasons.
Show Jaime is a fine character, if infuriatingly pussy-whipped, he just doesn't have a patch on Book Jaime.
I hate it says Rhaegar abducted Lyanna when Oberyn told the truth.

https://youtu.be/Pxv9ui8O34M?t=28
You had to post a reminder of how good the show could be!
Please don't make him read the last two books. He could just go to a wiki page and read that instead :p

New readers (looking at you, Artisan) and re-readers should read a combined AFFC/ADWD version, either a reorganized chapter list like Boiled Leather or you can download A Ball of Beasts if you "prove" that you own the books. It really does improve the pacing to read it as one gigantic book.
 

Ithil

Member
We know how Euron got across Westeros so quickly:

52518.gif
 
It sure sounded like he was saying that he and the old man were the same person. The original Three-Eyed Raven wasn't Brynden Rivers on the show so they could very well make it so Bran was mentored by his older self. Why not? There aren't any rules anymore!

That's book cannon but (as far as I know) Brynden Rivers is never mentioned on the show.

Brynden definitely was mentioned in the histories and lore in the DVDs, but I'm not sure if it's ever outright stated that he is the three eyed raven on the show.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
Brynden definitely was mentioned in the histories and lore in the DVDs, but I'm not sure if it's ever outright stated that he is the three eyed raven on the show.

He's known as the Three-Eyed Crow in the books as a nod to Brynden Rivers' time in the Night's Watch. I wonder if the name change (crow to raven) is because he isn't the same person. Though I haven't seen any of the lore stuff on DVDs but as far as the show proper is concerned, it hasn't been mentioned. Hell, Blackfyres don't even exist on the show!
 

duckroll

Member
So we've gone from Ramsey's "20 good men" to Tyrion's "10 good men", what are the odds that in the final season Jon Snow just needs 5 good men with him to topple the Night King's plans?
 
Two random comments:

1) It is mildly annoying how in fashion black and silver has become in Westeros.

GRRM put a lot of effort into describing the heraldry and colours of the great houses of Westeros and this season this has been thrown out with every one wearing black and silver.

Dany and all her advisors wear black and silver, even though House Targaryen colours are red and black.

Cersei is wearing black and silver instead of Lannister red and gold.

Sansa is wearing black and silver instead of other colours (ok mostly brown) we've seen associated with the North and house Stark.

Everyone is wearing the same thing now. It's weird and dull.

Counterpoint: Cersei, Sansa and Dany are fucking gorgeous in those black outfits
 
I read the books during and after Season 2. I was finished before Season 3 started. I lacked the book perspective prior to 3x01, but I've been a staunch believer in truncating the heck out of Books 4 and 5 ever since. It's not that I dislike them; I don't dislike any of the books, nor any of the seasons. And I am a traveler, an adventurer, a vagrant and a historian at heart, so I love worldbuilding and long meandering journeys. But they don't translate well cinematically and the show would have ran out of steam by now.

There were literally people on WatchersOnTheWall back in ~2013-14 who were saying Game of Thrones must run 12 seasons because there's no other decent way to do the books justice. That AFFC/ADWD would need to blend together (hey, they got that part right, at least) but they'd need at least three seasons, if not four.

I remember this because I told those people it would never happen. The stalling would be painfully obvious. The masses would lose interest. And who could blame them? I would watch the show -- and I would watch it decline. Both qualitatively and financially.

Granted, many fans believe what you said, that the show hasn't been as good since Season 4. Some even say Season 3. I respectfully disagree, with exception to Season 5 being notably weaker overall. But I don't believe for an instant that it would have made for better television if those two books were adapted more thoroughly. I really didn't need "the one where Daenerys has diarrhea" for an episode, to quote an admittedly-overused example.
wow, people thought the show would run for 12 seasons? I think that would be a horrible idea. 10 seasons at most but even that is a lot. They're trying to do that shit with the Walking Dead and I already lost interest in that show for a number of reasons - like you said, the stalling would be painfully obvious

I also agree that overall the writing took a bit of a downturn in season 5, some of it bled into season 6 with the whole Dorne thing and others, but I'm also not a traveler/historian like you are so my perspective isn't enriched with relevant knowledge like yours is. I'm also not all that much of a book reader; I did read all the Harry Potter books quite eagerly when I was a teenager, and the Thrones show is the only thing making me want to read the asoiaf novels. You really give more appreciation to the adaptation that way, really knowing the souce material.

People are calling season 6/7/8 fan service and D&D's just lesser-than-great writing than GRRM's, but nothing MAJOR about the endgame should change from GRRM's outlines. He said that the ending with be LOTR-style bittersweet, and the ending should be as consistent as possible with what GRRM intended with asoiaf. If it is a wildly different ending, then it's not even asoiaf anymore, it's its own complete story.
I had forgotten part about Rhaegar, but I took it more Jon like leading more so than killing.
Nah, I don't think Jon believes himself to be a good ruler. He was lord commander of the night's watch, and those he commanded, killed him. He became king in the north and the whole episode he pretty much regretted not listening to what his people were telling him.
Jesus he really became a robot.
Arya too; these kids need to snap the fuck out of it.
 

Moff

Member
So we've gone from Ramsey's "20 good men" to Tyrion's "10 good men", what are the odds that in the final season Jon Snow just needs 5 good men with him to topple the Night King's plans?

I am sure you got that it was a reference to a Bronn quote

apart from that, the final boss fight will be done by only 1 good man, Jaime will stab Bran, the end
 

mantidor

Member
So is it confirmed that Bran and the old man three eyed raven is the same person? His life is a loop essentially. The tree where they met could be a mystical place that was outside of time allowing them to meet each other. IDK how much evidence there is to support it

Also his ability to see timelines would explain the weird thing he said to Sansa. He knew he had to say it for the domino effect it would cause.

He was just talking about Sansa's wedding to Ramsay, there is only one timeline.

It is not confirmed he is the same person as the previous three eyed Raven, it's suggested heavily that he isn't, being the three eyed Raven is mostly just a position that changes people from time to time.

My favorite theory is that ASOIAF is a retelling of Ragnarok, the myth says Tyr, a god, loses his hand binding Fenrir, the wolf God, the gods decided to bind Fenrir because he would cause havoc in the world if he was set free, but Fenrir will break free when Ragnarok happenss and will kill Odin. It parallels Jaime crippling Bran and setting in motion the events that made him lose his hand, basically it makes Jaime the hero and Bran the final end boss, which would be dope.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
My favorite theory is that ASOIAF is a retelling of Ragnarok, the myth says Tyr, a god, loses his hand binding Fenrir, the wolf God, the gods decided to bind Fenrir because he would cause havoc in the world if he was set free, but Fenrir will break free when Ragnarok happenss and will kill Odin. It parallels Jaime crippling Bran and setting in motion the events that made him lose his hand, basically it makes Jaime the hero and Bran the final end boss, which would be dope.

Is there a link to a detailed examination of this theory? Sounds pretty rad.
 

NandoGip

Member
It's starting to look like the team against WW will be:

Jon
Dany
Tyrion
Bran
Sansa
Davos
The Hound
Melisandre
Jorah
Sam
Varys
Brienne

Leaving:
Arya
Cersei
Jaime
Littlefinger
Theon
Euron


Predictions (note- I have not read the production leaks so if anything here is remotely close to what happens, please don't tell me I'm right/wrong):
Arya:
I don't think she'll kill Cersei. Maybe she'll meet back up with the Hound or something? I really have no idea what will come of her story, but it's obviously going to have a big, BIG payoff since she's had her own specific storyline the entire series.

Cersei:
If Cersei dies, I can't imagine it'll be this season, her arc has lasted too long for her death to not be dramatic, if she even dies. Dany just walking up to her and killing her wouldn't be in the style of the show. Plus we have the prophecy saying it'll be either Tyrion or Jaime.

IMO she's on the same level as Jon and Dany for how important she is to the plot, at least on the TV show.

Jaime:
There's still the Brienne storyline, but I think the show has made it clear they're done with it. I think he'll kill Cersei at some point? Season finale or maybe next season?

Littlefinger:
I think Sansa will beat him at his own game and either kill him or marry him.

Euron:
I think he's going to betray Cersei and try to hand over King's Landing to Dany as a gift for the "most beautiful woman"

Thoughts?
 

CloudWolf

Member
Jaime:
There's still the Brienne storyline, but I think the show has made it clear they're done with it. I think he'll kill Cersei at some point? Season finale or maybe next season?

No way that Cersei will die this season. They will keep playing her up as the other big bad of the show. Maybe they'll pull a Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies and have her die in the very first episode of season 8, but she's definitely surviving this season.

So is that it for the Dorne duo? There was some implication that the mother may yet survive to get back at the Mountain.

Ellaria is kept alive for a reason, she will probably be freed in season 8 or end of season 7. There's literally no reason to keep her alive if they aren't planning on bringing her back.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
Ellaria is kept alive for a reason, she will probably be freed in season 8 or end of season 7. There's literally no reason to keep her alive if they aren't planning on bringing her back.

I'd be more than happy if they kept her alive for the exact reason Cercei said. That is some nasty vengeance.
 

NandoGip

Member
Recalled a few things

Arya:
Melisandre said they'd meet again. So bet on that at least.

Theon:
I don't want him to redeem himself. I want him to be reek and be one of the last survivors, because that's what he does: Survive.

The Mountain:
The Hound vs The Mountain is a big wish for fans, but I don't know if it'll happen.

Yara:
No clue, and kinda don't care what happens with her. She kills/forgives Theon? Or maybe she dies and thats that. idk.
 
Theon:
I don't want him to redeem himself. I want him to be reek and be one of the last survivors, because that's what he does: Survive.

I agree. I think Theon's lowkey one of the best/most thematically interesting characters because he's such a great subversion of the typical redemption arc. He's just... broken. And he'll never be whole again, in any sense. Unless they fuck it up.
 

jett

D-Member
it's not like R+L was spelled out in the books either...
I read it on the internet, I admit it

I'm sure that's how most readers found out about it.

Man I didn't even pick up that Renly was gay. I guess I didn't pay much attention to him and his knight of flowers.
 
I'm sure it's been discussed already, but that scene between Euron and Jaime was amazing. Folks in the *No Book Spoilers* thread thinking Jaime's gonna kill Euron for that, but show Jaime is too neutered for anything useful anymore, and damn if that scene didn't perfectly encapsulate it.
 

jfkgoblue

Member
I'm sure that's how most readers found out about it.

Man I didn't even pick up that Renly was gay. I guess I didn't pay much attention to him and his knight of flowers.
It was pretty vague in the books.
I'm sure it's been discussed already, but that scene between Euron and Jaime was amazing. Folks in the *No Book Spoilers* thread thinking Jaime's gonna kill Euron for that, but show Jaime is too neutered for anything useful anymore, and damn if that scene didn't perfectly encapsulate it.

I think it's the shows version of "fucking Lancel and Osmond Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know", just 3 seasons too late.
 

dubq

Member
I don't know that that's really true for average viewers who haven't seen it on the internet. I'd be curious to know how much the average viewer could even repeat back regarding the events that led up to Robert's Rebellion.

Either way- you can definitely expect an explicit reveal to be forthcoming on the show, for sure.
FWIW, I know of at least 3 show only viewers that I know IRL who didn't even get that the baby in Bran's flashback was Jon, even despite them cutting directly from the baby's face to Jon's in that scene.
 

jett

D-Member
So we've gone from Ramsey's "20 good men" to Tyrion's "10 good men", what are the odds that in the final season Jon Snow just needs 5 good men with him to topple the Night King's plans?

This is already a thing this season.

game-thrones-season-7-trailer-jon-snow.jpg


(from the trailer)
 

Gigglepoo

Member
Could be, but not necessarily. I'm guessing GRRM gave them a checklist, that included character deaths and other major events.

Or am I speculating crap here?

Even if GRRM did give them a checklist, it's clear that they are going their own way. Martin has been openly upset that they didn't include Lady Stoneheart, for instance. They're finishing the story how they want to finish it. If Martin kills off Cercei and Aegon takes the throne, D&D don't care, because Lena Heady is popular and it would be too complicated to bring in another faction.
 

jett

D-Member
Could be, but not necessarily. I'm guessing GRRM gave them a checklist, that included character deaths and other major events.

Or am I speculating crap here?

I doubt GRRM gave them a checklist.

And I doubt D&D follow whatever GRRM told to the letter. Very little about the events of this season seem plausible in the books, for starters.
 
On one hand I hate having to watch this abbreviated fan fiction weekly. You can tell just how much DnD hate this series and how much they're dying to get it over with. On the other hand it means there's less of this trash I have to watch, so maybe I should be happy.
 
Even if GRRM did give them a checklist, it's clear that they are going their own way. Martin has been openly upset that they didn't include Lady Stoneheart, for instance. They're finishing the story how they want to finish it. If Martin kills off Cercei and Aegon takes the throne, D&D don't care, because Lena Heady is popular and it would be too complicated to bring in another faction.

Fair point. Cersei dying now would potentially weaken next season.

On the topic of Martin being mad at D&D for not including all his BS in the show, I say fuck him. He dug a hole too deep for him to climb out of, which is probably the reason we still haven't gotten Winds. The man has lost it, and D&D probably did well in ignoring him (imagine the crazy shit he had planned out fro Lady Stoneheart lol)
 
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