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[Shahadan]

The siege weapons are not even the worst thing about this.

-It makes little sense for Dany to split her army and make it vulnerable in a land she knows nothing about
-It makes little sense for Olenna to have forged this alliance and not request protection or anything whatsoever especially since she's in open rebellion and she knows Cersei hates her and that Highgarden has all the food, something highlighted many many times already
-It makes little sense that no one predicted Cersei would try to secure the food supply asap especially since everyone is aware that Winter has begun
-Tyrion knows Casterly Rock mines are empty and that the position is worthless except symbolic, but he still sends a strong army there in a trap for no reason instead of securing basic ressources a freshly disembarked army of thousands would need asap not only for everyday need but also for strategic purposes (again, protect highgarden?)

I mean those are supposed to be smart characters well versed in the art of war, both in theory and practice, yet this plays out like baby's first war dumb of full of mistakes. Not to mention the ressources aspect was central in many past conflicts in previous seasons.

 

[Ocarina_117]

Qyburn just invented the Ballista, they don't have a time machine to get them installed at Highgarden.

It is like you don't even watch the show!!

They had Ballista's at the wall. I believe season 4 episode 9, when the wildlings attack,

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Highgarden is clearly on top of a hill, and they brought zero siege weapons.

C'mon. Everybody knows siege weapons are only useful against dragons...

 

[Speevy]

They want to have the appearance of a battle that killed thousands of men and opened the gates of a giant mountain castle without actually having one.

This is what you do. You have the Tyrell knights ride out and say "We will not let you take our home." along with their Tarly bannermen.

Both the Lannisters and Tyrell/Tarlys have equal forces.

Just then, the Tarlys turn their swords towards the Tyrells. Then you cut to Jaime walking up the stairs to meet Olenna.

 

[Faddy]

That is some really backwards logic. What is known is what they showed on the screen, that is how storytelling works in television. If you have to use your imagination to make up for bad screenwriting, it's bad screenwriting. They had no siege weapons because no siege weapons were shown. That is, literally, all there is to that.

Well they won. Everyone can say they know siege tactics but I saw who won, you saw who won. I trust my eyes more than what everyone knows.

 

[Ocarina_117]

Well they won. Everyone can say they know siege tactics but I saw who won, you saw who won. I trust my eyes more than what everyone knows.

I admire your persistence, but you're really fighting a losing battle in this thread.

 

[Speevy]

Well they won. Everyone can say they know siege tactics but I saw who won, you saw who won. I trust my eyes more than what everyone knows.

Robb Stark won too but there are visual clues all over the first 2 seasons that show how he won using the terrain and his ferocious tendency to rush into battle.

 

[Chumley]

Qyburn just invented the Ballista, they don't have a time machine to get them installed at Highgarden.

It is like you don't even watch the show!!

Sarcasm? He didn't invent it, he modified it and found a bolt that pierces dragon bones.

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[Faddy]

I admire your persistence, but you're really fighting a losing battle in this thread.

I've won. You are arguing against reality.

Jaime Lannister and Randyll Tarly took Highgarden, overwhelming the Tyrell troops. That is a fact.

 

[Chumley]

The only defense is "the viewer is responsible for making it make sense"

I've won. You are arguing against reality.

Jaime Lannister and Randyll Tarly took Highgarden, overwhelming the Tyrell troops. That is a fact.

lol you don't even understand the premise of this debate

 

[Ocarina_117]

I've won. You are arguing against reality.

Jaime Lannister and Randyll Tarly took Highgarden, overwhelming the Tyrell troops. That is a fact.

But HOW did you win?

 

[Speevy]

I've won. You are arguing against reality.

Jaime Lannister and Randyll Tarly took Highgarden, overwhelming the Tyrell troops. That is a fact.

Where are the Tyrell troops when Olenna is looking out her window at the surrounding army?

 

[rashbeep]

Well they won. Everyone can say they know siege tactics but I saw who won, you saw who won. I trust my eyes more than what everyone knows.

lol cmon, it's just not very good writing

i still enjoyed the episode, but the more you think about stuff like this it falls apart pretty easily

 

[Faddy]

Sarcasm? He didn't invent it, he modified it and found a bolt that pierces dragon bones.

Ballistas have never been seen in the show before, never been mentioned in the books (a scorpion is not a ballista) therefore I think it is fair to say Qyburn invented it.

 

[Cpt Lmao]

I've won. You are arguing against reality.

Jaime Lannister and Randyll Tarly took Highgarden, overwhelming the Tyrell troops. That is a fact.

"It happened so it must make sense! Bad writing is literally impossible!"

 

[Faddy]

Where are the Tyrell troops when Olenna is looking out her window at the surrounding army?

Behind their walls, idk

But HOW did you win?

With a vicious tautological attack. Impossible to defeat.

 

[Human Trashcan]

Well they won. Everyone can say they know siege tactics but I saw who won, you saw who won. I trust my eyes more than what everyone knows.

This is... *sigh* okay. You realize the TV show is not real, right? It's not a documentary? People wrote this. At issue is that they did a bad job writing it because they did not establish a credible scenario in which the Lannisters could have won this battle as easily as they did.

edit: oh, you're trolling. Okay then. ignored.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I mean those are supposed to be smart characters well versed in the art of war, both in theory and practice, yet this plays out like baby's first war dumb of full of mistakes. Not to mention the ressources aspect was central in many past conflicts in previous seasons.

Even worse, they made on of the best and smartest characters on the show an idiot in this episode. Tywin Lannister suddenly is too good to appoint someone for the sewage system. But he did make gates and walls that can't be destroyed. Pray tell how you get sewage out of a city without it... Going under those walls, making it pretty important to secure that.

How old is Tyrion anyway? Apparently his home didn't have a proper sewer until 20 years ago or something?

The excuse they went through for a quick victory there were just strange.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Well they won. Everyone can say they know siege tactics but I saw who won, you saw who won. I trust my eyes more than what everyone knows.

Game of Thrones is not a documentary. None of this stuff actually happened. We're not debating who "won" this battle. We're examining whether or not the battle was well conceived, presented and executed by the show runners given the result.

Spoiler

It wasn't.

It'd be like several of us discussing whether or not a character's death was well handled in the show and having you pop in here with, "She's dead." Yeah. We know that...

EDIT: Oh, shit. You're yanking people's chains up in this beeyotch. Alright- you got me!

 

[mantidor]

The more you think about it, the worse it gets. I gotta stop or I'll just waste my time for no reason.

This is really the only way to enjoy the show, just throw logic out of the window.

I get that Dany needed some defeat to make it exciting but could they make it at least believable?

 

[valeo]

I really want to like this season...but it's just falling really flat compared to previous.

The further it gets away from the books, the more it seems rushed. Game of Thrones used be about the journey rather than any destination - i.e. Jon going South would've made up a whole damn season, and now it's just a throwaway episode. It just cheapens everything that has come before it.

 

[Faddy]

This is... *sigh* okay. You realize the TV show is not real, right? It's not a documentary? People wrote this. At issue is that they did a bad job writing it because they did not establish a credible scenario in which the Lannisters could have won this battle as easily as they did.

edit: oh, you're trolling. Okay then. ignored.

Game of Thrones is not a documentary. None of this stuff actually happened. We're not debating who "won" this battle. We're examining whether or not the battle was well conceived, presented and executed by the show runners given the result.

Spoiler

It wasn't.

It'd be like several of us discussing whether or not a character's death was well handled in the show and having you pop in here with, "She's dead." Yeah. We know that...

EDIT: Oh, shit. You're yanking people's chains up in this beeyotch. Alright- you got me!

NOT A DOCUMENTARY, ok.

But then I say "hmm maybe they brought up siege weapons later, after they surrounded the castle to stop Tyrell forces launching a counter offensive" and I'm met with

LOOK AT THE SCREEN, NO SIEGE WEAPONS

So what is it? I can't infer the forces were enough to take Highgarden simply because that is what was shown on TV and I also can't infer there were additional unseen forces that would be more appropriate to take a castle like Highgarden.

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[Speevy]

This is how it went down.

 

[Human Trashcan]

Wait I thought it was irony. He was being serious about this debate?

Best to ignore the troll. He clearly doesn't want to grasp the concept that if you have to assume that A happened for B to happen, but A was never shown or explicated, that's bad writing.

Shit, maybe a lot happened. Maybe a deadly virus swept through Highgarden moments before the Lannisters arrived, killing all the defenders. They didn't say that it DIDN'T happen, so who are any of you to argue? check and mate, bitches!!!

 

[jfkgoblue]

They needed an excuse for Dany to go north and fight the White Walkers, and without Aegon, this is the best they could come up with.

It's probably going to go something like this:

Dany tries to counterattack, causes a lot Lannister casualties with her dragons, but somehow loses one.

"We cannot win this war without the North helping us"

Jon still refuses to give troops to her cause, but now he has all the leverage and needs her dragons.

Offers refuge in the North where no southern army will be able to travel too in the winter.

Bran tells them that Jon has a better claim to Iron Throne anyway, Dany tries to marry Jon, unsuccessfully.

White walkers attack the North and suddenly Dany has no choice but to fight them.

So we have to deal with these plot contrivances just to get to this point.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

This is how it went down.

Ah yes

The Greyjoy Land siege boats. With the power to sail up rocks and walls.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

This is how it went down.

Beautiful.

 

[ClosingADoor]

NOT A DOCUMENTARY, ok.

But then I say "hmm maybe they brought up siege weapons later, after they surrounded the castle to stop Tyrell forces launching a counter offensive" and I'm met with

LOOK AT THE SCREEN, NO SIEGE WEAPONS

So what is it? I can't infer the forces were enough to take Highgarden simply because that is what was shown on TV and I also can't infer there were additional unseen forces that would be more appropriate to take a castle like Highgarden.

It's just bad storytelling.

I mean, next episode they could just have Dany sit on the Iron Throne and we can infer from that she won the war against Cersei also and move on. But they need to show a way to reach that point that makes sense to the viewer.

 

[Chumley]

NOT A DOCUMENTARY, ok.

But then I say "hmm maybe they brought up siege weapons later, after they surrounded the castle to stop Tyrell forces launching a counter offensive" and I'm met with

LOOK AT THE SCREEN, NO SIEGE WEAPONS

So what is it? I can't infer the forces were enough to take Highgarden simply because that is what was shown on TV and I also can't infer there were additional unseen forces that would be more appropriate to take a castle like Highgarden.

What people are debating is that if the viewer has to do the work for the writers, the writers have failed at their job. Simply showing an outcome does not justify the journey taken to get to that outcome, and in this case the journey was Jaime saying "the Tarly's are the Tyrell's most powerful house", Tarly joining Jaime, and then a 30 second montage of infantry and horsemen marching towards a castle.

No explanation as to how they took the castle, no explanation as to why the castle was so undefended. Those are two extremely important bits of information.

 

[Ocarina_117]

This is how it went down.

This needs to be taken further.
Put a few in the background of the Night's King standoff scene at hardhome.
A few when Ramsay's army attacks stannis in the field.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

at least with tyrion explaining how they'd take CR they had the Ocean's 11 explaining the heist as it goes on shit.

 

[Ladekabel]

What if it becomes "Tyrion's Eleven"? Would explain a lot, right? 17432894046 dimensional chess you guys!

 

[Ocarina_117]

Reflecting on earlier seasons, it's clear D&D really only cared for delivering the red wedding.

They put a decent amount of effort into fleshing out Robb relative to what we got in the books.

Jon and Dany both suffer for the lack of focus received in the earlier seasons. In this episode their conversation pales in comparison to Ollena and Jaimie which was much better scripted, directed and delivered.

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[isaacnukem]

Screw Cersei. I don't like this show anymore.

 

[shaneo632]

Shout out to Bran for having a complete 180 character change for no reason too. I don't think Sophie Turner is that bad, at least not in this episode compared to fucking Bran (who was fine before)

And yeah as someone else said Emilia is awful, Kit isn't great but he's still alright.

I usually can't stand Emilia but I thought she nailed her central monologue this ep.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Until Grey Worm looked outside and found Jason. I mean, Euron.

well you must always have the scene where the plan goes wrong. And that's when you improvise.

Grey Worm will put on a mustache and enter the boats. He'll call himself Sir Nutwith Danne. Win their favor. And then kill them all with brazilian judo. Steal the queen's jewel, and meet up with the team for champagne and lobster.

 

[Lord of Castamere]

They put a decent amount of effort into fleshing out Robb relative to what we got in the books.

Well yeah, Robb wasn't a POV, and part of his downfall was being away from his mother, but it wasn't possible for us to see that through his eyes.

 

[Faddy]

It's just bad storytelling.

I mean, next episode they could just have Dany sit on the Iron Throne and we can infer from that she won the war against Cersei also and move on. But they need to show a way to reach that point that makes sense to the viewer.

Well that is the real point isn't it. That the battle of highgarden just wasn't interesting enough to show in full, involving few characters we care about. Wondering about plot holes over siege weapons/betrayals or whatever else is nitpicking at unspoken details that weren't important enough to show.

It is very akin to the Teleporting nonsense people cry over. People travel, it is boring, it doesn't need an explanation.

 

[isaacnukem]

Grey Worm will die. It is known. Thanks, awkward love scene!

 

[hydrophilic attack]

What if it becomes "Tyrion's Eleven"? Would explain a lot, right? 17432894046 dimensional chess you guys!

Well, he asked for 10 good men. With himself that makes 11

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[Operations]

So Euron went to Casterly Rock? What's reason behind this move? When was this shown?How did I miss it?

 

[isaacnukem]

Hopefully to Euron and not some random guy. I want to see him swinging his mighty axe and cleave GW in half.

Euron is so comical and exaggerated he is probably the most out of place character in the history of the show. Can't wait for him to bite the dust. I'll cheer.

 

[isaacnukem]

So Euron went to Casterly Rock? What's reason behind this move? When was this shown?How did I miss it?

You missed nothing, Operations. Game of Thrones is quickly becoming the Avatar: The Last Airbender of TV.

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[Shahadan]

The worst thing about this is that Book Euron is now forever ruined, whatever he's supposed to be doing next

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

The only explanation is that the Lannisters are phenomenal Total War players, and are maximising the use of that one full stack and mercenary fleet they have.