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[funking giblet]

Guys it uses virtual geometry and virtual texturing. All data is stored as pages in a huge database on the SSD, a hierarchical acceleration structure to select which pages of triangle soup and textures to pull in. Hence why they use 8k textures and have "infinite" detail. Only the texels and triangles being drawn are loading into RAM.

You need a good SSD for that to perform well.

This was discussed a long time ago as a target for id Tech 6 by John C (2011?)

 

[MDSLKTR]

lol, says the guy who makes threads to downplay sony 1st party and get banned.
The guy who is always triggered when reads good things about first-party. The guy who thinks he is an Insider.
We will see if his post is fanboyism or not soon

Damn that HZD pc announcement really afflicted ptsd on some of you.

 

[ethomaz]

Epic also said you could run this demo on current gen and look comparable, with limitations of course.
This demo wasnt made to simply show off PS5 power, it was to show off the new techniques and possible graphics from UE5, hense the dynamic 1440p, no ray tracing, and stuttery 30fps.

"You could render a version of this [demo on a system with an HDD], it would just be a lot lower detail,"

Yeap that is what I said.

The demo couldn't run at that level of detail in any system except PS5 currently... PC with new SSDs late this year will can run it at the same level (or even more?) details than PS5.

 

[SirTerry-T]

How do developers make these models and environments made of billions upon billions of triangles?

Does it take a lot more time than current gen games or does the new technology allow to make better-textured graphics in more or less the same amount of time?

Zbrush or Mudbox.
Import base mesh or build it withiin the sculpting package.
Sculpt, divide, Sculpt some more..retopologize if needed for more a more animation friendly/rigging asset.
Hit the export button.
There's your mesh.

That's the first bit.

 

[LittleBigGamer]

Damn that HZD pc announcement really afflicted ptsd on some of you.

facepalm.gif

 

[LeVictorien]

That doesn't mean that old HDDs will be unable to handle UE5 games and their billion-polygon "film quality" assets. The idea behind UE5 is to let developers import the highest quality assets they have, and then automatically scale everything to fit the hardware being used, all the way down to phones.

"You could render a version of this [demo on a system with an HDD], it would just be a lot lower detail," said Sweeney.

That part is key though... people saying older machines will prevent games to look next gens can stop now.

 

[GymWolf]

Obviously. Hint: Death Stranding uses Quixel.
I think Sony will position Decima as "our UE5" for next gen.
BTW, AFAIK ND do not have any engine. The tech is developed for each game (using the same tools, but it's not "engine")

isn't nanite something different from quixel.

isn't quixel just a library of high quality assets?

this nanite stuff seems far more technical...but i0m no expert.

does santa monica have a proprietary engine?

 

[scydrex]

Epic also said you could run this demo on current gen and look comparable, with limitations of course.
This demo wasnt made to simply show off PS5 power, it was to show off the new techniques and possible graphics from UE5, hense the dynamic 1440p, no ray tracing, and stuttery 30fps.

With lower detail they said...

 

[Rentahamster]

Geoff says "you know" quite a lot.

 

[ethomaz]

Guys it uses virtual geometry and virtual texturing. All data is stored as pages in a huge database on the SSD, a hierarchical acceleration structure to select which pages of triangle soup and textures to pull in. Hence why they use 8k textures and have "infinite" detail. Only the texels and triangles being drawn are loading into RAM.

You need a good SSD for that to perform well.

This was discussed a long time ago as a target for id Tech 6 by John C (2011?)

Yeap... it just that SSD speeds where not there in 2011 yet.
There is a lot of things know and not knows that you can do to increase graphic fidelity and details with faster SSDs without affect performance.

It is a change of development paradigm for better.

 

[Spukc]

Zbrush or Mudbox.
Import base mesh or build it withiin the sculpting package.
Sculpt, divide, Sculpt some more..retopologize if needed for more a more animation friendly/rigging asset.
Hit the export button.
There's your mesh.

That's the first bit.

That's a pretty rough explanation but okay

 

[geordiemp]

Guys it uses virtual geometry and virtual texturing. All data is stored as pages in a huge database on the SSD, a hierarchical acceleration structure to select which pages of triangle soup and textures to pull in. Hence why they use 8k textures and have "infinite" detail. Only the texels and triangles being drawn are loading into RAM.

You need a good SSD for that to perform well.

This was discussed a long time ago as a target for id Tech 6 by John C (2011?)

 

[ColonialRaptor]

Oh wow. There is something I’m seeing in here is the ‘it’s just a tech demo‘ argument which to me fits right in line with the ‘ssd secret sauce’ flippantly discarding someone’s opinion or blatantly ignoring facts to suit ones own personal preference and supplier the inner monologue is hilarious. Humans have such an incredible capacity for self delusion. I for one wonder what information I’m taking as fact in my head that I’ve got wrong in my post here right now why don’t more people do that?

Sure it IS a technical demo but from what I understand this is actual gamplay (someone using a controller to move the character) running on actual hardware. It doesn’t matter if it was on PS5 or XSX this will run on both next gen consoles and I imagine will look relatively similar on both. The really really interesting part will be to see how and where it scales for both consoles.

For example could it look better during slow close up parts on the XSX and then transversely look better on PS5 during the fast moving parts at the end? Honestly I think the power difference between the two consoles is so close that it’s going to be very difficult to discern much difference on screen between the two for a heavily scalable engine such as this.

Did Epic show this on PS5 because of a deal with Sony? I wonder this because they usually go for Microsoft, I mean they build one of Xbox’s premier exclusives Gears of War... I found that really interesting. Is it on the PS5 because it just runs and looks better on that hardware? I don’t personally believe that but I’d like to know why they chose Playstation 5.

 

[Kiya's Guard]

Looks pretty nice. And I'm here still waiting for games to look like the ue3 tech demo from years ago

 

[NXGamer]

No. I'm looking at the low level definition of SSD not adding anything to graphics and that's true. If you want to say it can stream more data to the RAM subsystem faster than an HDD can, I agree 100%. But that's as far as it goes bro. Really.

Then we agree, the SSD is adding to the visual fidelity in the demo, was not that hard was it.

 

[psorcerer]

isn't nanite something different from quixel.

Yes, just a render/asset pipeline I suppose.
If you look closely you can see that the demo does not use any "new" tech.
The shadows are pretty basic, there is aliasing here and there.
What it does use: enormous amounts of high quality assets (meshes, textures, maps).
So in the end: Decima with 8GB/sec SSD will look like this even today. I don't think they even need to change a lot.

does santa monica have a proprietary engine?

Don't think so. If your team is proficient you don't really need an engine. Engine limits the game design too.
What is needed are tools to build game systems. And ICE team still has those.

 

[MadYarpen]

This looks crazy.

How close can we get to this level with real games?

 

[pawel86ck]

Guys, dont you think with such amazing graphics developers vision will be limited mainly with their money investment rather than hardware? How many developers would have to work in order to build entire game with such graphics fidelity? 1000 people if not more?

 

[diffusionx]

ignorant question, isn't decima engine rooted in current gen? does it have something similar to nanite for details and lumen for lights and shadows?

Every engine is iterative.

 

[ColonialRaptor]

For anyone, but Sony devs to use this SSD speed, it needs to be available on other platforms.

But that’s conpletely un-true. This is a scalable engine meaning it will take advantage of the Xbox TF advantage to look better where it can on Xbox and use the SSD speed to look better on PS5 where it can. This is an Unreal Engine demo we’re seeing here this means the dev doesn’t need to care so much about the differences between consoles they can make their game and the engine will scale how it looks automatically based on what each hardware can do it’s really brilliant.

 

[geordiemp]

Oh wow. There is something I’m seeing in here is the ‘it’s just a tech demo‘ argument which to me fits right in line with the ‘ssd secret sauce’ flippantly discarding someone’s opinion or blatantly ignoring facts to suit ones own personal preference and supplier the inner monologue is hilarious. Humans have such an incredible capacity for self delusion. I for one wonder what information I’m taking as fact in my head that I’ve got wrong in my post here right now why don’t more people do that?

Sure it IS a technical demo but from what I understand this is actual gamplay (someone using a controller to move the character) running on actual hardware. It doesn’t matter if it was on PS5 or XSX this will run on both next gen consoles and I imagine will look relatively similar on both. The really really interesting part will be to see how and where it scales for both consoles.

For example could it look better during slow close up parts on the XSX and then transversely look better on PS5 during the fast moving parts at the end? Honestly I think the power difference between the two consoles is so close that it’s going to be very difficult to discern much difference on screen between the two for a heavily scalable engine such as this.

Did Epic show this on PS5 because of a deal with Sony? I wonder this because they usually go for Microsoft, I mean they build one of Xbox’s premier exclusives Gears of War... I found that really interesting. Is it on the PS5 because it just runs and looks better on that hardware? I don’t personally believe that but I’d like to know why they chose Playstation 5.

I think the ps5 SSD is faster than most think.

12 channels not 4, 6 priorities and 22 GBs max, maybe Sony lowballed the rest of the specs to make it look like expansion would not be so hard......I read that on moreslawis dead.

MMM, could be something to that. WE will know soon enough if the demo pops up elsewhere, it is playable on Ps5 now apparently so...

Heres a question, do you think a 12 channel bus is only twice as fast as a 4 channel with the same speed memory attached to it....?

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Did Epic show this on PS5 because of a deal with Sony? I wonder this because they usually go for Microsoft, I mean they build one of Xbox’s premier exclusives Gears of War... I found that really interesting. Is it on the PS5 because it just runs and looks better on that hardware? I don’t personally believe that but I’d like to know why they chose Playstation 5.

I would love to get an honest answer to that question eventually. I imagine MS will respond at some point.

 

[GymWolf]

This is the most fanboyish comment I've ever seen in my life.

You automagically mitigate a 3rd party developer of cross-platform engines simply because you "love" your 1st party developers. Even though they haven't shown any new technical advancements yet? Wow.

i think he base his opinion on current gen games, ue4 games are not better looking than proprietary engine games, not only from sony of course, rdr2, re3 remake, tlou2, metro exodus or tushima looks better than gears5 and days gone, arguably the best ue4 looking games of this gen (maybe i forget some other games but you get the point)

he probably think that if ue4 can't beat decima or capcom engine, the same si gonna happen with ue5 vs upgraded proprietary engines.

not saying that he is right, but many people probably have this perception right now.

 

[LostDonkey]

Are dev kits drastically different than the actual consoles? Seems stupid of them to be hyping this up as playable on a ps5 (dev kit) if it wouldn't be achievable on the actual machine itself.

Doesn't really matter. The fact is this is "not" running on a PS5.

It IS running on a PS5 Development kit though which *probably* (if history is anything to go off) will have faster cpu/ram, better cooling/thermal envelope etc etc. Let's at least be clear this is not running on a retail unit.

 

[GymWolf]

Yes, just a render/asset pipeline I suppose.
If you look closely you can see that the demo does not use any "new" tech.
The shadows are pretty basic, there is aliasing here and there.
What it does use: enormous amounts of high quality assets (meshes, textures, maps).
So in the end: Decima with 8GB/sec SSD will look like this even today. I don't think they even need to change a lot.



Don't think so. If your team is proficient you don't really need an engine. Engine limits the game design too.
What is needed are tools to build game systems. And ICE team still has those.

didn't they talked about a shitload of triangles and polygons on screen? was that still quixel stuff?

 

[WindomURL]

All I could do was laugh in disbelief as that video concluded....incredible. We've come a long way, fellers.

Immediately I'm picturing a Bloodborne with that kind of fidelity. Hifi gore and splatter ooooohhhhhh

 

[banjo5150]

I have no doubt XSX and PS5 will deliver. I keep going back to this PS5 SSD. It may not change graphics to look far superior. I am convinced it is going to create some crazy games though. The way games are designed is going to change because of this SSD custom I/O. No way Sony put that much effort in these custom parts for no reason.

 

[ColonialRaptor]

Guys, dont you think with such amazing graphics developers vision will be limited mainly with they money investment rather than hardware? How many developers would have to work in order to build entire game with such graphics fidelity? 1000 people?

Actually you’re missing the point completely. The things this engine is doing will actually reduce the overhead of work required by people and while it may not speed up development from the end user side it will improve the graphical level without increasing time in fact I believe it will reduce things for devs as their library of assets is constantly growing they need to make less and less stuff because they just combine bits and pieces of things they’ve already built to the highest quality for the assets library.

It might take a lot of time to create that assets library in the first place but once all those things exist it will streamline and make a much faster dev time especially if devs no longer need to make multiples of everything at different LOD and baked in lighting. This stuff is HUGE!

 

[psorcerer]

didn't they talked about a shitload of triangles and polygons on screen?

Hmm, yep, forgot about it. Mesh/primitive shaders. New tech. You're right.

 

[ColonialRaptor]

Heres a question, do you think a 12 channel bus is only twice as fast as a 4 channel with the same speed memory attached to it....?

I don’t know exactly what difference that makes but I imagine it is exponentially faster at a factor of 8 (4+ 8 = 12) which means whatever bandwidth each lane has to give some extra room to move.

 

[RaySoft]

Show me a game, "Tech Demos" mean nothing.

Remember the Killzone 2 "Tech Demo"?

How about the Wii U Zelda "Tech Demo"?

You cant compare those to this. Both of those were just pre-rendered trailers.
This was a real-time demonstration. You can look at it as a playable level from any other game. Sony's 1st party games will even be better than this down the line.

 

[SkeletonQuays]

Doesn't really matter. The fact is this is "not" running on a PS5.

It IS running on a PS5 Development kit though which *probably* (if history is anything to go off) will have faster cpu/ram, better cooling/thermal envelope etc etc. Let's at least be clear this is not running on a retail unit.

Jeez bro. I updated my post already to include the words dev kit. Sheesh...

 

[Vesper73]

Damn, completely forgot about VR, that's going to be sick in general (PSVR2). Of course, unfortunately it won't look as good as this demo, since the hardware will have to render two separate views, but should still be a big leap over current gen VR, and PSVR1 obvi.

It could look as good if PSVR2 has foviated rendering.

 

[Entroyp]

And to think this is the bare minimum this engine can make, given how PC and XsX have more raw power, truly fantastic!

 

[INC]

Once again, Sony haven’t done anything and declassified Microsoft

Should of done Dualsense 3.5mm headphone jack in engine, neogaf would of melted

 

[ethomaz]

Doesn't really matter. The fact is this is "not" running on a PS5.

It IS running on a PS5 Development kit though which *probably* (if history is anything to go off) will have faster cpu/ram, better cooling/thermal envelope etc etc. Let's at least be clear this is not running on a retail unit.

Which PlayStation devkit ever had better CPU? It is just RAM to run the devtools white the allocation for games is the same.
Just because MS uses XDK with better CPU/GPU doesn't means Sony do the same (actually they never did).

 

[Rentahamster]

Guys, dont you think with such amazing graphics developers vision will be limited mainly with their money investment rather than hardware? How many developers would have to work in order to build entire game with such graphics fidelity? 1000 people if not more?

One of the points of the demo was that with UE 5 you can import the highest quality assets from Quixel and let the engine take care of the LoD adjustments for you automatically, as well as handle a lot of the global illumination work for you. That should help reduce workloads.

 

[geordiemp]

And to think this is the bare minimum this engine can make, given how PC and XsX have more raw power, truly fantastic!

At 1/3 of the streaming speed and oh, wait a minute........but muh VRS terrafloppies....

 

[Entroyp]

At 1/3 of the streaming speed and oh, wait a minute........but muh terrafloppies....

I don’t follow.. what are you talking about? A 2080ti or better will not match this?

 

[mortal]

 

[llien]

But that’s conpletely un-true. This is a scalable engine meaning it will take advantage of the Xbox TF advantage to look better where it can on Xbox and use the SSD speed to look better on PS5 where it can. This is an Unreal Engine demo we’re seeing here this means the dev doesn’t need to care so much about the differences between consoles they can make their game and the engine will scale how it looks automatically based on what each hardware can do it’s really brilliant.

That's not how revolutionary aspect of SSD works.
The point of superfast SSD is to load as you go.
Now, if load as you go is not fast enough on other platforms, games will not take advantage of that feature at all and will do old school "loading tunnel" crap.

 

[geordiemp]

I don’t follow.. what are you talking about?

What are you talking about that I replied to ?

The demo is about streaming 8K assets through an ultra fast custom SSD

and you bring up this is the minimum with PC and XSX raw powa

No. You dont get it, its not about terrafloppies, its about SSD 8K streaming asset power.

 

[ethomaz]

I don’t follow.. what are you talking about? A 2080ti or better will not match this?

Without a proper SSD, not.
They where clear about that.
The level of detail can't be reached without the SSD streaming.... faster the streaming = more details on screen.

But a 2080Ti will probably run at better resolution the demo.

 

[ColonialRaptor]

That's not how revolutionary aspect of SSD works.
The point of superfast SSD is to load as you go.
Now, if load as you go is not fast enough on other platforms, games will not take advantage of that feature at all and will do old school "loading tunnel" crap.

I would say that is debatable. I think there will be an aspect of streaming on the XSX but in areas where things are moving fast it will need to reduce fidelity to keep up with the lower I/o bandwidth.

This engine is meant to run even on the older consoles so I wonder if it can still use this tech but with far reduced abilities. Probably not but I fully expect to see similar fidelity on XSX and high end PC.

 

[Coolwhhip]

Geoff says "you know" quite a lot.

That was very very, you know, annoying, you know.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

 

[JTCx]

ignorant question, isn't decima engine rooted in current gen? does it have something similar to nanite for details and lumen for lights and shadows?

Decima is proprietary and can be built upon. Guerilla knows what theyre doing and are ready for next gen. Im pretty sure they got their own crazy tech in the pipelines.

 

[GymWolf]

Hmm, yep, forgot about it. Mesh/primitive shaders. New tech. You're right.

ooof sometimes even a noob like me says something right during these technical discussions

 

[Entroyp]

What are you talking about that I replied to, the demo is about streaming 8K assets through an ultra fast custom SSD

and you bring up PC and XSX powa

Are you timdog ?

I actually get laid quite frequently so no. I’m actually more excited for the PS5 Than any other platform but I see no wrong in thinking XsX and PC will at least match what we saw here.

 

[Ristifer]

Man, back in the day, I would've dropped my pants after seeing this. Now, as a more cynical ass, I just have a "wait until I see it on my own screen" attitude to it all. Don't get me wrong, it looks absolutely lovely. And I know we're closer than ever to achieving these visuals on home consoles. However, I just can't get that excited until I see this on my own screen right in front of me.