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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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B

Borman

Member
ehnox said:
Nice pics, did you enabled the texture smoothing feature before booting the game?
To get rid of the jaibars or the checkerboard thing, the best option is to get a scart with sync on luma cable:

http://www.videogameperfection.com/2014/07/04/playstation-cable-review/

These cables are only custom made, and if you get from retro console acessories you wont regret it, there is this guy who forges the cable, he is like the "Hattori Hanzo" of gaming cables.
Click to expand...

Nope, Id rather have it be nice and sharp :)

I get most of my cables from RCAccessories, thats where I got my Nintendo ones. They were sold out when I bought my PS1 cable though, so I had to go with a cheaper one (or I wanted the RCA ports on it for guncon, I can't remember).
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
toshiba_14af44_14__flat_color_crt_television_tv_s___video_input_front_aux__remote_1_lgw.jpg


Just snagged a Toshiba 14" flat screen CRT in a yard sale for $10. It was basically pristine, just had to clean it a bit. That pic above is just one I found online for reference. Has S-Video and even Component (doesn't do progressive though). Hooked up my Dreamcast/SNES/Saturn to it and put it in my bedroom. Looks great. My wife can't understand my love of CRT's. She keeps hoping my old 36" Wega dies but it's still running like a champ.
 
S

speedlolita

Member
ehnox said:
Nice pics, did you enabled the texture smoothing feature before booting the game?
To get rid of the jaibars or the checkerboard thing, the best option is to get a scart with sync on luma cable:

http://www.videogameperfection.com/2014/07/04/playstation-cable-review/

These cables are only custom made, and if you get from retro console acessories you wont regret it, there is this guy who forges the cable, he is like the "Hattori Hanzo" of gaming cables.
Click to expand...

Official SCART still best SCART.

hGRVhgZ.jpg
 
A

Adam Blue

Member
I got a scart switcher for my XM29 Plus - Genesis and SNES - and it's been great. I unplugged everything to shoot a video, but putting everything back, the SNES scart cable won't work. I even unplugged it from the switcher and went straight into the scart to BNC. So it worked and now it doesn't - I always hear audio, but for video, sometimes the screen will flash white immediately, sometimes it will show as if it's not syncing correctly. Did the cable just 'break'? (My $7 PSX scart did the same, btw. But I just figured I spent $7)

Here's the cable, that I'm sure we're all familiar with. Any thoughts?

iNDXT3rAWOQPA.jpg
Click to expand...
 
E

Exuro

Member
MightyHedgehog said:
It could be your particular video settings exacerbating a pronounced effect of apparent banding you're seeing, too. If you're thinking about the SCART>component converter route, this item may just be what you need. Someone else may have a better alternative to that cable, though.
Click to expand...
This is what it looks like. Tried both genesis games I have and its an identical effect. I tried my dreamcast on rf and it doesn't show the banding.

XuO207S.jpg
Click to expand...
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Picking up on those cables (and RGB YUV or RGB HDMI converters in general)...

The main issue HDTVs have upscaling low res is movement. On every set I've ever seen, the picture varies in quality when static, but blurs and/or stutters when moving.

I believe this is because the TV has converted the 240p to 480i, and then DEINTERLACES the picture it just interlaced!

So it looks okay in pictures, but like crap in gameplay.

And yes, many TVs simply do not handle 240p at all over conponent. Some don't even handle 480i
They usually do both over composite,
Others have weird problems, like doubling the image vertically (Sonic 2 style) or a horizontal bar in the middle of the scnren at all times.

So yeah, very few applications for that product IMO. They'll get lots of returns when it doesn't work on 30% of HDTVs, and looks crap in another 30% of cases.

One good application is a CRT with only YUV inputs and no RGB. But that's not what they're thinking of.
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
Exuro said:
This is what it looks like. Tried both genesis games I have and its an identical effect. I tried my dreamcast on rf and it doesn't show the banding.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I believe they call that composhit...err...composite video. I doubt you'll see that by going the SCART>component route, which is the best a Genesis can hope to offer if you want that old school scanline look on a real CRT.
 
BONKERS

BONKERS

Member
D.Lo said:
Picking up on those cables (and RGB YUV or RGB HDMI converters in general)...

The main issue HDTVs have upscaling low red is movement. On every set I've ever seen, the picture varies in quality when static, but blurs and/or stutters when moving.

I believe this is because the TV has converted the 240p to 480i, and then DEINTERLACES the picture it just interlaced!

So it looks okay in pictures, but like crap in gameplay.

And yes, many TVs simply do not handle 240p at all over conponent. Some don't even handle 480i
They usually do both over composite,
Others have weird problems, like doubling the image vertically (Sonic 2 style) or a horizontal bar in the middle of the scnren at all times.

So yeah, very few applications for that product IMO. They'll get lots of returns when it doesn't work on 30% of HDTVs, and looks crap in another 30% of cases.

One good application is a CRT with only YUV inputs and no RGB. But that's not what they're thinking of.
Click to expand...

Definitely a stupid naming scheme on their part. Gives people the wrong idea. This on the other hand, is great for the tons of US CRTs with Component input! (That are almost always wired for YUV rather than RGB. Even though, in the case of my TV. The TV itself actually deals with RGB, but is hardwired/built to transcode YUV to RGB before it's sent to the gun. Strange shit)

Not so for HDTVs, because most of them don't support 240p over component..


But their blog does provide some of this info
http://www.hdretrovision.com/blog/
 
A

antibolo

Banned
In their FAQ they claim that they believe that 240p issues on HDTVs are going to go away in the future.

That just sounds absurd to me, if anything it will only get worse over time as supporting SD resolutions becomes less and less of a priority for TV manufacturers.

The TRUE appropriate usage for these cables would be non-European CRTs with component inputs. But that's not what they're pitching them for right now.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
BONKERS said:
The TV itself actually deals with RGB, but is hardwired/built to transcode YUV to RGB before it's sent to the gun. Strange shit)
Click to expand...
All images are RGB at the start and end, it's just that apart from RGB-scart/jp21 connections they get modified in-between, and back again.

YUV is a good signal, it's a very simple conversion, is 99.99% as good as RGB, but uses half the bandwidth.
So your cables can be longer with less shielding and less signal loss.
A common issue with RGB is the interference between channels, because it's just such a huge bandwidth signal. I have top quality equipment and still get audio interference with high-level signals (e.g. white screens, which uses the most bandwidth in RGB).

So yeah, YUV was a great idea. It just has had a relatively short shelf-life as a main input. Most people jumped from RF to composite to HDMI in my experience, they even ran their Gamecubes and Wiis via composite when their TVs had YUV.
 
T

televator

Member
theSlacker said:
My mains are a 50" in my bedroom and a 60" in my living room. The distance I sit in front of my 24" computer monitor makes it have as much face space as either of those. Same with the my BVM, but without the widescreen sides. Now if you really just don't have the room for an independent setup for a crt I can understand not being able to deal with the size. Even with all my stuff I would like an XRGB unit, if not for the resolution switching problem, and will get one in a later generation if they can fix that. Just saying that 20" isn't as bad as it sounds when compared to modern big screens since people that use it will have a different orientation to it.
Click to expand...

Yeah... well I see what youre saying but I sat 3 feet in front of the XM29 and still wished it was bigger....

Yes, Im a crazy man.

I personally have been using a Wega 32" and that size is more like it and I still sit pretty close to it... but again that damn geometry.
 
P

Peltz

Member
Exuro said:
Okay so I would need a specific sega genesis rgb/scart cable and then a converter to component which will work with any consoles rgb/scart cable. Do most older consoles have rgb cables and are they worth it to get?

I just checked out some genesis rgb vs composite and its pretty crazy how different some scenes look. Didn't know there was some much dithering in certain games due to composite masking it. This is really cool to learn about.
Click to expand...

Be really careful with SCART to component converters. The signal will still be 240p, and most HDTVs don't accept 240p over component. Even if yours does, it may still look gross when scaled.

What TV are you using? Someone in this thread may be able to help you if you provide the model.
 
P

Peltz

Member
speedlolita said:
Official SCART still best SCART.

hGRVhgZ.jpg
Click to expand...

By any chance, would you (or anyone else) be interested in a 1st party Nintendo JP21 PIN cable? It works on SNES and modded N64 flawlessly. I also have the box which I'd include. I'd be willing to trade it for the right game or item. I'm not looking for money.

I am only willing to part with it because I bought a SCART switch and need to go all SCART. Otherwise it's a perfectly good 1st party 21pin cable. The box is a bit worn, but totally displayable/collectable if that's your thing.

PM me if interested.
 
S

speedlolita

Member
Afraid I already have a first party EU GC SCART lead that I use with my GC and RGB modded NTSC N64.

Someone with a Framemeister would probably have more use for it. :)
 
A

Adam Blue

Member
Adam Blue said:
I got a scart switcher for my XM29 Plus - Genesis and SNES - and it's been great. I unplugged everything to shoot a video, but putting everything back, the SNES scart cable won't work. I even unplugged it from the switcher and went straight into the scart to BNC. So it worked and now it doesn't - I always hear audio, but for video, sometimes the screen will flash white immediately, sometimes it will show as if it's not syncing correctly. Did the cable just 'break'? (My $7 PSX scart did the same, btw. But I just figured I spent $7)

Here's the cable, that I'm sure we're all familiar with. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Strangely, it is now working.

Has anyone come across a cable not working - then working? I still want to blame the cable here.
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
Peltz said:
Be really careful with SCART to component converters. The signal will still be 240p, and most HDTVs don't accept 240p over component. Even if yours does, it may still look gross when scaled.

What TV are you using? Someone in this thread may be able to help you if you provide the model.
Click to expand...
He posted earlier in the thread that the picked up an SD CRT, an FD Trinitron with component input.

Peltz said:
Gratuitous scanline shots from my RGB monitor because... deal with it..
Click to expand...
Yeah. GAF totally needs a scanline'd/SD CRT retro game screenshots thread. Way more interesting than the next-/current-gen one.
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
speedlolita said:
Make one! I'll happily contribute.
Click to expand...

Oh, no I don't make threads anymore by choice. I spend enough time reading/posting on GAF. Besides, if I made it, I feel compelled to make a whole slew of shots to choose from if there's a similar three-picture limit per post (just to keep things readable/viewable). And that takes some time for me to do. Maybe this weekend I'll break out tons of Genesis stuff I have and get my daughter to play while I snap shots.
 
S

speedlolita

Member
theSlacker said:
Interesting. Is there something about how they are made that makes them of better quality? Though the sync on luma custom ones were the best you could get signal wise.
Click to expand...

I think it really depends on your set. These cables are made by Sony and are properly grounded and shielded. They also have a voltage pump so that PAL TVs auto switch to the right channel. Even on an LCD I don't notice anything wrong with the image. I'd be curious to see the difference with the sync on luma cable though, or just mod one of my PlayStation to use luma instead of composite video for sync.
 
E

Exuro

Member
Peltz said:
Be really careful with SCART to component converters. The signal will still be 240p, and most HDTVs don't accept 240p over component. Even if yours does, it may still look gross when scaled.

What TV are you using? Someone in this thread may be able to help you if you provide the model.
Click to expand...
It's a sony trinitron 27 inch. Here's a shot of the back of the tv.

nYUh9Nr.jpg
Click to expand...

Thanks for letting me know about that.
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
Exuro said:
It's a sony trinitron 27 inch. Here's a shot of the back of the tv.



Thanks for letting me know about that.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the issue is that Genesis is pretty notorious for having shit video-out quality unless you use RGB via SCART or are putting that composite output through a dedicated composite monitor that was common in the 80s. With that television, which seems to be identical to mine, your best bet is to go SCART cable to component converter or wait on that Kickstarter for those proposed built-in encoder cables listed on the last couple pages for the Genesis and SNES...which may be a while if the KS project fails to fund.
 
E

Exuro

Member
MightyHedgehog said:
I'm pretty sure the issue is that Genesis is pretty notorious for having shit video-out quality unless you use RGB via SCART or are putting that composite output through a dedicated composite monitor that was common in the 80s. With that television, which seems to be identical to mine, your best bet is to go SCART cable to component converter or wait on that Kickstarter for those proposed built-in encoder cables listed on the last couple pages for the Genesis and SNES...which may be a while if the KS project fails to fund.
Click to expand...
Awesome. How many retro systems benefit from scart? I'd feel better about spending $50 if I could use it for multiple systems(that I will eventually own).
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Exuro said:
Awesome. How many retro systems benefit from scart? I'd feel better about spending $50 if I could use it for multiple systems(that I will eventually own).
Click to expand...
Allofthem.gif until the PS2.

Except for N64, NES, PCEngine and certain models of other consoles (e.g. Master System 2, SNES 2), which don't have native RGB, but all can have it added with varying degrees of difficulty (NES being the hardest and most expensive).
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
Exuro said:
Awesome. How many retro systems benefit from scart? I'd feel better about spending $50 if I could use it for multiple systems(that I will eventually own).
Click to expand...

What D. Lo said and I already linked you a good SCART-to-component converter and a Genesis model 2 SCART cable with stereo out. I dunno if your model of Genesis will be as nice as mine for output on what seems to be the same CRT, but it should be the best you could ever get out of the system. Check the recent scanline screenshot thread for some pics I took of mine using that same setup a few weeks back. It's by far the most beautiful I've ever seen the Sega 16-bit in person. Just glorious. I'm also doing my PS1, Saturn, and soon my SNES using the same SCART-component converter. Gotta pick up a SCART switcher, though. I'm looking into N64 via RGB mod, but I'll wait for that. It's good enough to play that on a good CRT to begin with.
 
M

Mercutio

Member
Well, my Trilogy 1 Euro-Scart switchbox is a bust. At least, so far.

Here's what I'm getting:

The thing outputs a constant and VERY loud buzz through the speakers.

It does not change inputs. If you change to an input manually, you get a brief listen of the sound, but never any picture.

When it does give you that brief listen to audio, the buzz is gone.

I'm using a 100W step up / step down transformer, and it almost seems like that vibrates to a similar tone to the audio I'm getting? That might be me being crazy though. I live in the USA, and this thing is a 240W UK device, but I kind of thought I had that covered. The lights do seem to be functioning properly so it's definitely getting power.
 
D

dodgeme

Member
D.Lo said:
Allofthem.gif until the PS2.

Except for N64, NES, PCEngine and certain models of other consoles (e.g. Master System 2, SNES 2), which don't have native RGB, but all can have it added with varying degrees of difficulty (NES being the hardest and most expensive).
Click to expand...

PS2 you can go component pretty cheaply and get a beautiful picture on a good CRT.
 
P

Peltz

Member
D.Lo said:
Tru dat.

Hence until PS2.

Though I wouldn't call the PS2's component 'beautiful'. It's awful compared to the GCN, and worse quality than every other console that does YUV.
Click to expand...
Definitely try to get 1st party component cables on PS2 if possible. There are a lot of bad 3rd party component cables for PS systems out there.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Peltz said:
Definitely try to get 1st party component cables on PS2 if possible. There are a lot of bad 3rd party component cables for PS systems out there.
Click to expand...
It's not the cables, it's the output. It's weak and dull. I've never used anything except official cables. And the same cables were fine when I used them on PS3 when I got it (before I had an HDMI TV).

Of course it doesn't help that PS2 image quality is among the worst of any console ever. Most games render internally at something stupid like 512x448, which is then scaled to 640x480i, and have no AA. Blurry messes at the best of times compared to the razor sharpness of 240p and 480p consoles.

I have a PVM and a Framemeister, and of all SD content consoles back to the Matter System, PS2 looks the worst.
 
P

Peltz

Member
D.Lo said:
It's not the cables, it's the output. It's weak and dull. I've never used anything except official cables. And the same cables were fine when I used them on PS3 when I got it (before I had an HDMI TV).

Of course it doesn't help that PS2 image quality is among the worst of any console ever. Most games render internally at something stupid like 512x448, which is then scaled to 640x480i, and have no AA. Blurry messes at the best of times compared to the razor sharpness of 240p and 480p consoles.

I have a PVM and a Framemeister, and of all SD content consoles back to the Matter System, PS2 looks the worst.
Click to expand...

I wonder if PS2's image quality varies with models. Does anyone have any info?

Also, just curious, have you tried RGB? If so, I'd like to hear your thoughts as to how that compares.
 
O

Ocaso

Member
ehnox said:
I think such a thing already is avaliable:

SDV1-Diagram2.gif


Source http://www.ambery.com/costorgrgbco.html

You can easily find one of these on ebay, but how it makes the magic to convert a composite signal to YUV or RGB is beyond my tech knowledge.
Click to expand...

Wait, wait, wait... This doesn't actually work as advertised, does it? I mean, I could see it separating the S Video signal to component or RGB, but composite? Because this would be a much simpler and cheaper solution to clean up an NES composite signal than an RGB mod.

Has anybody actually bought this and used it?
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Peltz said:
I wonder if PS2's image quality varies with models. Does anyone have any info?
Click to expand...
No idea, but mine is a relatively early PAL model. Though I mostly play NTSC games on it.
I'm planning on grabbing an NTSCJ slim soon though, so could compare.

Peltz said:
Also, just curious, have you tried RGB? If so, I'd like to hear your thoughts as to how that compares.
Click to expand...
No I haven't, and do have an RGB cable I'm using with my PSX so can give it a go actually! I might have a chance this weekend.

Ocaso said:
Wait, wait, wait... This doesn't actually work as advertised, does it? I mean, I could see it separating the S Video signal to component or RGB, but composite? Because this would be a much simpler and cheaper solution to clean up an NES composite signal than an RGB mod.

Has anybody actually bought this and used it?
Click to expand...
Depends on your definition of 'works'. Yes I'm sure it puts out some kind of RGB signal. But I'm also sure it would be a worse looking picture than you already get from composite.

You can't create data, the signal is already compromised. This is in no way comparable to an NESRGB mod.
 
S

speedlolita

Member
Peltz said:
Definitely try to get 1st party component cables on PS2 if possible. There are a lot of bad 3rd party component cables for PS systems out there.
Click to expand...

PS2 component output simply isn't very good. The Cube output is notoriously great.

I'd go RGB every time with the PS2.
 
O

Ocaso

Member
D.Lo said:
Depends on your definition of 'works'. Yes I'm sure it puts out some kind of RGB signal. But I'm also sure it would be a worse looking picture than you already get from composite.

You can't create data, the signal is already compromised. This is in no way comparable to an NESRGB mod.
Click to expand...

I share the skepticism, but improving the composite signal is precisely what it advertises. I imagine it's not worth the cost, but I'm still curious if anyone has tried it and what results they've gotten.
 
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