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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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sixteen-bit
Member
No kidding. I think they look pretty bad.
Same here, I was hoping it'd just be screens from other CRT's but alas it is not.
Yeh I'm not a fan. But the OP allows them so they aren't doing anything wrong I guess.
Maybe for interest's sake it'd be good to have a shot from each system on an emulator as examples in the OP, and links on how to get it looking like that, but people posting tons of their own emulator shots seems to be muddying the thread a little.
I just wish I had a camera that picked up the colour better; they're pretty muted on my crappy camera phone. Otherwise I'd post a ton more pics.
When I do participate in the thread I won't be using emulator screens because I'm not into that, everything will be from consoles and arcade pcbs(yep, may get arcade pcbs in the future).
I'm guessing you're in murrica, huh? I see what you have on ebay but it's about $100 total since I'm canadian =/
Though it is indeed a golden item.
Oh... so by the way, I would have to route the audio to a sound device, and not the extron, right? If I were using RGB/Component at least? That is what I'm getting from glancing at this. I see inputs for either RGB + Sync or Video + L/R Audio. I would feel that this is an important question because I'll never use composite or s-video, only purely RGB. Now this is getting a bit complicated, but I feel like my final setup would look something like this:
Now, this is of course assuming my component box only takes 3 inputs. I'd probably have 1 only if there were 4 or 5 inputs, but I can't find an automatic one that can do more than 3. 2 SCART Boxes is all I'll ever need since it's more than enough, both of which will be automatic. All I'll need to do is push a button on the extron, and push a button on the audio switch (unless I can get an automatic one for that too).
I am in America. Didn't realize shipping was so much more from Canada.
You are correct, video and L/R audio are meant for composite. However, this doesn't mean that you can't pass sound through with other signals.
RGB actually carries audio over through its Red Green and Blue cords so that is passed through fine. Component though has its own set of white and red cords just for audio. You could just plug the RGB portion of each component cord into the extron and just route the white and red cords to a small RCA switcher, which is what I am doing. I show one towards the end of the video, it is Sony and is stand alone (no power needed).
Or if you have a stereo you can just route the audio directly to that and it would have plenty of L/R inputs.
Keep in mind, you have 8 inputs on the Extron that I showed, so unless you had too many devices, there's no need to have another switcher beforehand. Furthermore, if you have two scart boxes and one had space, you could route one scart switch into the other and save a slot on the Extron.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I just posted my current gaming setup in the designated thread for that stuff; felt like cross-posting it:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137107450&postcount=2034
Anyone else have setups of their own that they've posted?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137107450&postcount=2034
Anyone else have setups of their own that they've posted?
Oh man, that Sonic screenshot on that monitor looks beautiful. Also, I'm so jealous of that Model 1 Sega CD. I'm rocking a Model 1 Gen with a Model 2 CD and it just looks so lame.
I did at some stage but I live in a tiny apartment and all my retro gear is set up under my computer desk on a shoe rack, lol.
I got the cables as tidy as possible and someone still said I should do some cable management, so I feel a bit ashamed to ever post mine again lol.
My modern stuff is set up rather nicely though, so next time I dust I'll probably post a snap of that. Oh to own a house some day, that would be glorious. Then I can have my own lair set up in the basement.
Ehh.... sorry about that guys. I feel responsible for delivering a thread that is less cool than it probably should have been. I was trying to be inclusive and I genuinely thought that CRT filters would be more impressive than what's being posted. Like everyone else in this thread, I am also a bit disappointed with many of those emulator shots... they either look flat, blurry, or too razor-sharp.
Hopefully, the thread will just naturally become more of a CRT thread with time.
But so far there were a few emulator shots that I think looked pretty cool. I was hoping for more stuff like this one:
That image as well as a few others gives me hope for future filters from emulators. I think this filter is quite an accomplishment.
MightyHedgehog
Member
While real CRT shots are always more fun to look at, and to take fetishistic pictures of, if you didn't allow emulator/upscaler pics, barely anyone would have taken notice of the thread in the longer term. Think of the thread as an entry point for many who never thought of or forgot about real scanlines and the behavior of CRT displays and how old school SD, pre-/non-VGA standard graphics were designed and created. Eventually, it may even encourage more people to desire better standards of emulator filters and full-screen effects now that many who would have passed on the thread have had an opportunity to participate and care about them given better examples of the real things.
I think he's just recreating his own recollection of blurry SD sets he played those games on as a kid, not necessarily going for scanlines themselves.
I used to play CPS-2 games on a Dreamcast around the time it came out. At that time I already played the console on a CRT with an RGB connection. I recall most, if not all, CPS-2 games running at 240p. Overall it resulted in a very pleasant image.
However, whenever there was screen movement I could see the pixels move, as if nearest neighbor scaling was implemented for the horizontal resolution. CPS-2 games natively run at a non-square pixel aspect res of 384x224. I get the feeling the dreamcast was outputting at a different horizontal res (like 640x224, 720x224 or lower at 320x224) with nearest neighbor scaling. Can anyone confirm? Also, does the Saturn handle these games in a similar fashion?
However, whenever there was screen movement I could see the pixels move, as if nearest neighbor scaling was implemented for the horizontal resolution. CPS-2 games natively run at a non-square pixel aspect res of 384x224. I get the feeling the dreamcast was outputting at a different horizontal res (like 640x224, 720x224 or lower at 320x224) with nearest neighbor scaling. Can anyone confirm? Also, does the Saturn handle these games in a similar fashion?
Yeah, I think 240p on the Dreamcast is limited strictly to 320x240. Or at least that's the only choice in KOS (homebrew Dreamcast development library) So Capcom CPS-1/2/3 games can't be "pixel perfect", unfortunately.
Dunno about the Saturn.
Thanks for the clarification. That's unfortunate, as the extra resolution the CPS systems offer is a nice bump up from the more common 320x240 (or below) most other systems use.
The Wii does support the CPS res, or an exact multiple of, through homebrew. I find the video output of the Wii lacking, however, even using component out. It appears it uses 4:2:2 color sampling (component limitation?). I have to look into RGB on the Wii sometime and see if that solves that issue. I think it involves forcing the system to PAL mode so I'm a little wary.
Ehh.... sorry about that guys. I feel responsible for delivering a thread that is less cool than it probably should have been. I was trying to be inclusive and I genuinely thought that CRT filters would be more impressive than what's being posted. Like everyone else in this thread, I am also a bit disappointed with many of those emulator shots... they either look flat, blurry, or too razor-sharp.
Hopefully, the thread will just naturally become more of a CRT thread with time.
But so far there were a few emulator shots that I think looked pretty cool. I was hoping for more stuff like this one:
That image as well as a few others gives me hope for future filters from emulators. I think this filter is quite an accomplishment.
That one, I agree, looks amazing. Everything else... not so much.
I have never seen a blurry CRT aside from maybe one or two that were on their last legs, so I'm not sure what effect people are going for with those filters. Even RF isn't blurry as such.
It's really just motivated me to take more pictures of my setup though to be honest, so that's one good thing
I took the original image without the filter and did a quick and dirty change of levels and white balance. I guess Japanese arcade monitors used D9300K resulting in a blue tint. Many other arcade games around that time were made with low brightness (as in black level) in mind. TMNT arcade comes to mind. Correcting for those two things minus scanlines and blur results in:
The image with the scanlines filter definitely has its brightness reduced a good bit more.
The image with the scanlines filter definitely has its brightness reduced a good bit more.
Yea, tell me about it. But I just realized something.... Maybe some of the "flatness" and bizarre look of the emulator shots is attributable to the fact that they're direct screen captures rather than off screen shots? Perhaps they'd have more "dimension" to them if they were taken with a real camera?
No. They're just a fake effect, period.
BONKERS
Member
I don't understand the hate on CRT shaders, there is MUCH more to a CRT than just the scanlines. People think scanlines and just go nuts.
Looking at my own TV up close, there is far MORE visible on 240P content than just "Scanlines"
CRTs also have: Phosphor Trails, light trails, often light to major light blooming and bleeding, shadow masks, apperature grilles, and other stuff.
And then there is the differences between CRT types, like RGB monitors, consumer TVs, Computer VGA monitors, tons of differences.
And yes the output is often blurrier than a pixel perfect LCD or a CRT with the sharpness cranked up to the point of madness.
I'm starting to think people have the sharpness turned up too much.
Most of the emulator shots I see in that scanline thread look Just fine and closer to any real CRT than just the fake ass ugly scanlines from a scaler like the XRGB.
And even if you don't like the effects, it's ENTIRELY customizable to whatever preferences you have.
Looking at my own TV up close, there is far MORE visible on 240P content than just "Scanlines"
CRTs also have: Phosphor Trails, light trails, often light to major light blooming and bleeding, shadow masks, apperature grilles, and other stuff.
And then there is the differences between CRT types, like RGB monitors, consumer TVs, Computer VGA monitors, tons of differences.
And yes the output is often blurrier than a pixel perfect LCD or a CRT with the sharpness cranked up to the point of madness.
I'm starting to think people have the sharpness turned up too much.
Most of the emulator shots I see in that scanline thread look Just fine and closer to any real CRT than just the fake ass ugly scanlines from a scaler like the XRGB.
And even if you don't like the effects, it's ENTIRELY customizable to whatever preferences you have.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I guess the way I see it is that I'm not looking for a "recreation of CRT" so much as I want the crispest version of the original image.
And I would argue that scanlines are part of the original image... The spritework was all crafted with the knowledge (consciously thought about or not) that they would be there. they just are omitted on newer TV technology.
So scanlines for me are a little bit like "windowboxing" 4:3 content on newer TVs. Without that function, old content isn't displayed properly. I don't actually need it to look like an 80s/90s TV, I just want the image displayed "properly". The framemeister does that.
D.Lo
Member
yeah CPS2 looks bad on Dreamcast, scaled.
The games look better on Saturn. If your monitor can handle them that is, otherwise the graphics go off the side of the screen.
Yes I think that's part of it, some are very lazy. Framemeister is fake scanlines, but looks great. Also that street fighter 2 shot in the thread made up to look like 90s japanese arcade monitors is fantastic.
Also those who have posted physical camera shots of screens of emulated material generally look good too.
The other part is that you need a good eye to make it look right if it's in the configurations. And most people are just dumping default emulator settings on some game, or just don't have a good eye for what's right. The equivalent mistake with real hardware would be someone connecting a Mega Drive via composite to a CRT and posting that.
Obviously those who bother with genuine display and game hardware care more about getting it right, literally anyone can put together an emulator screenshot with not much effort.
BONKERS
Member
I greatly DOUBT that pixel artists back in the day took into account that scanlines were significantly a part of the final package.
They often drew sprites on graph paper first and used dedicated machines to draw dot by dot.
Scanlines are part of the low resolution signal being displayed by a CRT. And only one part of the CRT itself.
That's the end of it.
If anything, composite video and what they did with dithering is MORE part of the intended image than scanlines.
They often drew sprites on graph paper first and used dedicated machines to draw dot by dot.
Scanlines are part of the low resolution signal being displayed by a CRT. And only one part of the CRT itself.
That's the end of it.
If anything, composite video and what they did with dithering is MORE part of the intended image than scanlines.
BONKERS
Member
Eye for what's right when it comes to CRTs is entirely subjective based on preferences on how you like the picture.
The fact of the matter is
No CRT is pixel perfect with ONLY scanlines and no other things from CRTs.
And depending on the signal you feed it, those scanlines won't always be the same either.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
There is really nothing to doubt. When you make a videogame, you look to see how the final product is output to the monitor (and by and large they were little RGB monitors, just like the ones people covet in this thread, next to their computer). You massage it until it looks right on that screen, and scanlines were a part of that screen.
It's like saying "designers today take into account the 16:9 shape of the frame". It's not something you even have to think about, it's implicit in the nature of the TV screen that the designers know they are outputting to.
D.Lo
Member
I disagree with almost everything you've said here, it's not 'the end of it'.
I have no doubt at all that GOOD artists took into account scannlines as part of the image. Good artists work within the limitations of their display medium.
CRTs have a bunch of negatives that I don't like, such as curved screens, overscan, geometry issues, small screens, blooming problems, limited connection options. Half of this thread is about getting hold of CRTs that MINIMISE these issues, like PVMs that accept RGB.
And another option is we can now have our cake and eat it too via scalers and well-done scanline emulation - the image as originally designed, without the problems listed above.
The composite video thing is a valid point, but another limitation of the past I'm willing to ignore for an overall higher quality picture.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
There absolutely is, and it irks me when people project their own preferences or assumptions into the design process.
CRTs varied wildly, and not just in the available video connections or quality, either. The one SD CRT TV I had laying around the house until recently didn't even show scanlines at all on 240p content, so this notion that they're some kind of vital aspect of the experience has always sounded obnoxious to me.
Some console games are designed with composite dithering in mind. Others are ported from arcade machines with high-quality RGB monitors. Yet both games could end up running on the same console hardware in the end. You'd have to be crazy to tell me that there's a one-size-fits-all "intended" method for game display technology, or that the release versions of all of these games are meticulously crafted grand visions and not just the best compromises that the designers had to settle on at the time. And the notion that every designer or engineer gave every aspect of the technical process its due consideration in their own work is just laughable; I don't think you'd tell me that interference jailbars in the early model Sega Genesis are an intentional feature. Or that Genesis/SNES ports that used identical sprites on the two consoles' differing display resolutions (which would make the aspect ratio out of whack on one of them) is the mark of a pixel artist with some grand uncompromising vision.
You can argue about what's the most "accurate" way to display an ancient input source on a modern display, but this is dependent on what very specific display characteristics that you're trying to be accurate to, and there are a ton of equally valid configurations to adhere to.
You cannot, IMO, argue what's the "intended" method for the same thing in a lot of cases, unless you can cite some sources.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
No one is saying that designers thought about the scanlines consciously, but it was understood that they would be there, simply as a matter of fact that these are TV games from the 80s and 90s.
Whether someone consiously designed around the scanlines, didn't care about/notice the scanlines when designing, or actually wished the scanlines weren't there doesn't matter: they knew how the final product would look when it went out the door, and scanlines would be there.
So when I say there is nothing to doubt, I mean there is no reason to even be concerned with the question of how much they were taken into consideration when designing. It doesn't matter how much they thought about it. They would be there on the display of everyone who ever played the game, so every game had to look decent with the knowlege that they'd be there. Turning scanlines on is a way to make the game look as the designer knew it would look out of the box, whether they liked that scanlines existed or not.
Personally, I turn them off occasionally even for games that were designed in the CRT era (particularly when we started getting pre-rendered and 3D graphics). But leaving them on generally is a good guarantee that the image looks pretty much how people thought it looked when it was new.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I literally just told you that the last SD CRT TV that I owned did not show scanlines on 240p content. And they were always less pronounced on other sets than almost every filter I've ever seen that hasn't been heavily customized.
I've always been at odds with scanline fetishists on this kind of stuff because they paint a picture of a reality that never really existed to me.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
And I took that to be a rare unicorn. Most CRTs did. No one was designing games with the hope that they'd be played on that rare TV.
It only became a "reality" when the scanlines disappeared. I agree that no one really thought deeply about them back when they existed... they just made games that looked good on TV as they knew it.
But now that they're gone, old games personally look a bit like they've been (for lack of a better term) "line-doubled" now, and a lot of the spritework looks kinda bad that way. So in retrospect I can't help but think that those games were designed with the scanlines "in mind" even though no one thought about them.
It's like putting an old show in HD - you sometimes see that the actors are wearing bad makeup. Would you say that the makeup was applied "to target the resolution of SD video"? No, of course no one was thinking about it. They were just making a show and seeing what looked good on the screen. But then you take away the limitation of the resolution and the makeup looks terrible.
It's actually not a great analogy because I'm generally in favor of HD restoration of old TV... but then again, I'd actually turn off scanlines whenever I think it improves the image too. I just think they look better there on sprite-based games up to and including the 32-bit era. If you could somehow upscale those sprites to look as they should without scanlines, I'd flick that switch, but the nature of sprites is that you can't.
Anyway, the original intent of this is to say that scanlines are not about nostalgic recreation of old TV technology, so much as making the sprites look nice. I'll take away the "as they were intended to" part.
Definitely, there is no "one size fits all" type of thing. But one thing seems pretty certain: Most developers from the classic era did not intend for their content to be upscaled to 1080p with pixel-perfect, unfiltered clarity on a non-crt screen.
Studio RGB monitors create scanlines, and as far as I can tell, they are the highest quality CRT-based SD picture you can find. So it's really not about which way is "correct". But rather, how to get the highest quality, authentic experience.
I'm losing out on dithering by using such a high caliber display, which definitely wasn't intended by the pixel artist, and perhaps you could argue it makes the experience less authentic. But I can live with that because everything else looks pretty. And I do believe it would look less pretty if not for the scanlines. Life is about tradeoffs and so is the method you choose to play classic games.
The scanlines thread is just a thread for people who love scanlines. They're only "vital to the experience" if you personally believe it to be. I had not played my games with scanlines for over a decade until a few weeks ago and I still loved my collection. Now, I love it even more and have even started the scanlines thread. But by no means are scanlines the be all end all. However, I do feel transported back to my childhood far more vividly when I am playing on a CRT with scanlines, and I do think the scanlines get rid of the jaggies in a way many developers intended the game to look.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's just an analogy. In both cases design work was done for certain old screens, and now they are being viewed on newer screens with clarity that reveals an image that maybe the designer didn't intend for.
BONKERS
Member
I love scan lines.
If you don't, perhaps the scan line thread is not for you
I love CRTs, scanlines are only one part of CRTs displaying low resolution signals.
But I digress,
it seems those "HD Retrovision" people have made clear their intentions for a line doubler/scaler
http://www.hdretrovision.com/future-products/
Which if the quality is good, they should add a Din port for RGB Scart
You can tell that their Dreamcast component cable is The Real Deal because its label is in Comic Sans.
This made me laugh far more than I'd like to admit.
Their HDMIzer sounds like a simpler Framemeister. I wonder what their target price is (assuming it even comes to fruition)?
Friend of Sonic
Member
LOL
I'm kind of curious about their cable. Does it look for a game trying to output VGA and give you the 480p signal? What does it do for non-VGA games? It doesn't mention the possibility of being stuck with 480i. The Toro switchbox I'm using has a switch you would need to toggle for non-VGA games. Does this have a switch too?
So many questions, but the Comic Sans has made me a believer
StevieWhite
Member
Well said. I love scanlines, but I often find that when I fire up a retro game with scanlines enabled at a party or whatever, folks will frequently ask "what's with the lines?" If you like 'em, you like 'em. They are by no means required.
Curious, is that on a CRT or via an upscaler on a modern panel?
StevieWhite
Member
Usually through a Framemeister on a modern panel.
Thought so. My guess is that people aren't used to seeing scan lines on a modern panel. People never comment on them on my PVM.
D.Lo
Member
Also depends on the config.
Framemeister allows for super-epic pure black pronounced scanlines (Venetian blind style, like an appetite grille on steroids), all the way back to subtle, semi-transparent scanlines, which looks much more like a regular TV, with bleed between lines of graphics into the scanlines.
So if it's set to 'Venetian blind' settings anyone would be like "what's with stripe land?".
D.Lo
Member
This should work if you add a gender adapter and two leads to send to the devices
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000I2JW1I/
baphomet
Member
I know those work like shit for switches so I assumed they would work bad as distribution. I have one here somewhere I guess I could try and see how it works.
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