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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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I was referring to connecting both systems up simultaneously via composite (implied as he mentioned waiting on other/better cables.)
NyMartin90
Member
hey crt-gaf,
So I posted a few pages ago about my new BVM 20f1u being an issue. Thanks for all the help you guys gave me! Turns out the SCART cable I got wasn't grounded well for sync. Any ways I finally have it working and here are some pics. I have a question. I think the picture might be tilted atleast one line (the bottom left appears high and the top right appears lower). It looks alittle clearer in the Jurassic Park pics with the bottom left showing some lines or dots. How might i fix this in screen alignment on the settings? Which value is it?
So I posted a few pages ago about my new BVM 20f1u being an issue. Thanks for all the help you guys gave me! Turns out the SCART cable I got wasn't grounded well for sync. Any ways I finally have it working and here are some pics. I have a question. I think the picture might be tilted atleast one line (the bottom left appears high and the top right appears lower). It looks alittle clearer in the Jurassic Park pics with the bottom left showing some lines or dots. How might i fix this in screen alignment on the settings? Which value is it?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Are you sure your TV doesn't have a game mode for component input? My W950B does.UPDATE:
So I actually didn't get the KDL 55. I actually did buy the Sony kdl60w850b
Anyway, my impressions:
For consoles with 1080p output, it plays like a dream. The response time feels almost like a CRT. And it looks just as good as my old Panasonic Plasma, but with even less input lag. I didn't realize how far LED technology had come until I experienced this for myself. Of course, it doesn't hold up as well in a pitch black room at night, but that's to be expected. The daytime picture is perfect though. The 24ms of input lag (according to the input lag database) feels imperceptible to me and is indeed very fast, even for twitch-based games.
For 480p content, unfortunately, I felt some very tangible input lag in comparison. Switching off all of the preset filter-bullshit only helps to minimize the feeling, but the controls definitely feel too "mushy" for my tastes. And the actual image at 480p is quite soft as well, especially with the filters turned off. Unfortunately, my Panasonic Plasma handled such content far better. The upscale appears to add some very significant frames. And most frustratingly, the HDTV does not appear to have a "game mode" for its component input.
At this point, I'd rather play my Gamecube at 480i on my PVM so that at least the controls feel good. This is especially important because my GCN is mostly set up for F-Zero GX and SSBM these days, so timing is very important. Plus 480i on the PVM simply looks more aesthetically pleasing than 480p upscaled via the KDL's internal upscaler (bleh). I will continue to play with the options on my KDL at 480p... hopefully there's some preset that I'm missing that can cut out a few more frames of input lag.
Overall, it's a great HDTV, but I'm disappointed with the upscaling.
P.S. Do you even lift bro?
Glad you posted this. I was going to PM you. How do you access game mode in component? It just turns on automatically when I'm playing games via HDMI and says "Game-Standard".
But on component, it just has "Standard", "Vivid", and "Custom", even as I play Gamecube. It feels like I'm (hopefully) missing something.
Haven't pulled the trigger yet as I decided to ask the people Im staying with if it is actually ok to lug a CRT here. (I had trouble with the smell from cooking food bothering them (WTF?) so decided to play it safe)
I dont have a full answer yet but one of the guys said that maybe hell bring his parents old Philips CRT here. Im not too fond of the idea, but at least I can play my PS2 on something other than waiting for him to leave to use his TV. And it will be for only the 3 next months too. Ill def look into a better display when I get home. I know my grandmother has a non-flat 1999? Trinitron that she doesn't use anymore which I can probably bring home.
Also saw a 50" WEGA projection TV for sale on a website. What a fucking beast.
Love the looks of those Sony BVM-s. The smaller one seems especially cool for some reason.
I dont have a full answer yet but one of the guys said that maybe hell bring his parents old Philips CRT here. Im not too fond of the idea, but at least I can play my PS2 on something other than waiting for him to leave to use his TV. And it will be for only the 3 next months too. Ill def look into a better display when I get home. I know my grandmother has a non-flat 1999? Trinitron that she doesn't use anymore which I can probably bring home.
Also saw a 50" WEGA projection TV for sale on a website. What a fucking beast.
Love the looks of those Sony BVM-s. The smaller one seems especially cool for some reason.
Kawika
Member
I am so impressed with this thing. And I only have it hooked up through composite (nes) and S-Video (PS2) right now.
Since you have the same one as me. I was reading about Sync. If I use my BNC adapters can I connect my PS2 via component? I noticed that Scart to BNC has a 4th wire which I can only assume is the sync (maybe ground) cable? But ypbpr has only 3. Does this mean if i try to hook up the component cables it won't sync?
Since My PS1 is modded for imports I think I will order the Scart cable for that and just use component (if i can) for my PS2.
I am a bit overwhelmed with all this new information that I am learning about how to properly set up my new tv (in a really good way though).
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Standard/Vivid/Custom should be a sub-menu underneath whatever Scene setting you've already selected. You need to go into Scene select and pick Game or PC (both of which should have roughly the same performance).
There are a lot of menus. You should spend a half hour poking around.
*Facepalm* I feel like a dope. I thought "scene select" was the name of the menu. I didn't realize it was its own set of options.
baphomet
Member
Component for both will give you 480p, that's, unfortunately as good as it gets really.
Huggers
Member
Cheers Baph, thought as much
Yes.
NormalFish
Banned
for PS2 480i, RGB is superior due to a fuzzy component connection from the PS2 and marginally better color reproduction from RGB. I currently have 2 PS2s, so I'm using component out from 1 for 480p content and (when the cable arrives) RGB SCART from the other for PSX and 480i content.
I don't know jack about the xbox, though. Aren't basically all those games 480p? I think VGA is probably best, but component takes silver.
It depends on a range of factors.
At 240p/480i resolutions RGB will always be at least marginally better. But this margin is so small on most consoles that it's not worth freaking out about, in motion it's basically impossible to tell a good component signal vs a good RGB signal.
That is, unless your converter is crap or you're using a PS2 (which is because the PS2's component sucks.)
Though Dreamcast (and PS3) can do 480P over scart in some cases, in general when going 480p or above component is better than RGB upscaled.
In genereal component is your better option unless you're willing to shed out for a proper upscaler.
NormalFish
Banned
for the record, the PS2 can also output 480p over SCART, however it's in an atypical format (RGsB I believe), so many TVs/upscalers don't do well with the signal. If you can find a way to make that RGsB signal something more standard (sync stripper or whatever) then you can play 480p games with SCART.
I have a PVM 20L5 and was wanting to get some more expensive games I don't already have (the Final Fantasy SNES games) for it. I purchased Final Fantasy II for Wii Virtual console, but it seems pretty blurry.
I'm using component and have my Wii's output set to 480p. Would changing it to 480i make the quality of VC games look any better?
Thanks.
I'm using component and have my Wii's output set to 480p. Would changing it to 480i make the quality of VC games look any better?
Thanks.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
If you set it to 480i it should default to output VC games in 240p. You might need try a button combo as well, I think it depends on the game.
Kawika
Member
You know, I have most of my consoles hooked up via the best original cables and was even thinking about buying a top loading nes with a rgb mod for it. Honestly, I don't even like using my original hardware (because I fear that they will break or worry about battery issues on those carts). Hearing that in motion you probably can't tell the difference between rgb and component makes me want to just get an old wii and use the vc or emulators instead.
s74rshaped
Member
Does anyone know of a good quality component switch? Want to hook up my xbox and wii to my cap card without having to fiddle around the back of the television.
Those are good questions. I struggled to find these answers when I picked up mine, as well.
From what I understand, you can connect your PS2 via component cables (along with BNC adapters) but you allow for it to output RGB by switching something in the PS2 settings. (You set the output on your PS2 to RGB.) I have not done so myself. (I don't own a PS2.) The PVM has 'sync on green' (my Panasonic Plasma has the same) by default (the PS2 also uses SoG as I understand) so you shouldn't be required to use the 'Ext. Sync' connection on the PVM in this particular instance.
I don't think it supports 480p (that's what I was told, anyway) but 480i and 240p look great! Here is a link to the manual.
Set your Wii to 480i and 4:3 for your PVM, then switch to 240p when using it with component cables for VC games.
Here are the instructions to do so.
FYI: As mentioned previously, this apparently won't work on a Wii U. It really makes me regret doing a system transfer of all of my old VC stuff.
Hey rgb/crt gaffers, I found a sony PVM 2130QM near my place (east of Paris), do you know if it can work with 480p (EDIT : I mean would it work with component from a wii ?) ? I would use it for nes/snes and also ps1/ps2/gc (using wii component as I don't have an ntsc GC with component cables). Also the guy is asking 180€ for it, i'm not sure it's a very fair price, but I don't see lots of other monitor that close to me.
I'm pretty much new to the whole rgb deal, only got a 1chip pal snes and a a/v famicom so far.
I'm pretty much new to the whole rgb deal, only got a 1chip pal snes and a a/v famicom so far.
So I went ahead and got a SCART to HDMI scaler/converter along with SCART cables for my Genesis and Saturn. This isn't the fanciest converter but had mostly positive reviews and it was fairly cheap. Hooked it up last night and WOW! I don't think I've ever seen my Genesis games looking this good. It looked like all of my Genesis games had gotten HD remakes. I tried a whole bunch of them but the one that really stuck out was Xmen 2 Clone Wars. It totally looked like I was playing a modern 2D game from PSN or something. For 56 dollars, this thing is amazing.
Is there any noticeable input lag? Does it give you any options as to what resolution it outputs? (It says it's just a converter, so does it just output a 240p signal to your TV?)
It sounds like an intriguing solution, especially at that price!
Edit: Just noticed you can select 720p/1080p output
I didn't notice any lag. I'm gonna play some more tonight with more twitch based games and see if I notice anything.
I don't think it does 480p.
Would you care to share some photos of it in action? I think cheap upscalers get a pretty bad rap here but people are always coming in and asking if they're any good (to which we usually reply NO). I'd be interested to see yours.
What you're seeing is the power of RGB. An LCD TV with a Scart input would give you the same picture quality, you are mainly witnessing the difference between Composite and RGB. It's a massive jump in picture quality, though it still doesn't hold a candle to RGB on a CRT (even a cheap European TV with Scart from the 90s) or a professional upscaler.
Upscalers like these are interesting for Americans, they basically give them the Scart socket that was removed from their TV when it crossed the Atlantic. Europeans shouldn't use them however, it will bring no better picture.
[edit] I lol'd at the description:
- Converts any NTSC (60hz) to PAL HDMI (50hz)
- Converts Any PAL (50hz) Signal to NTSC HDMI (60hz) 1080p
Why would anyone want to do that? I don't know if you can change it in the settings, but please keep your frequencies untouched, unless you like stutter and frameskip. I believe every consumer LCD is able to display both 50Hz and 60Hz.
Yup will do. All I have is my iphone 6 camera so they won't be the greatest pics, it I think it will still be able to show the crispness (no color bleeding, clear text, etc.). The only bad thing I've noticed is a slight blurriness on moving images. It's not as bad as it sounds though, it looks a hundred times better than what it looked via composite and even svideo.
Khaz, you are exactly right. The image quality difference is mostly from the fact that the image signal is just so much better with scart than composite or svideo. I will say that my tv has a pretty shitty upscaler, so it's nice that this thing will do the up scaling instead.
Peagles is right... They have a very bad rep in this thread. But it may be the best bargain solution for many people.
Any noticeable input lag?
lilralphie
Member
Any advice on a switch for:
-5 (or more) to 1 component
-5 (or more) to 1 HDMI
Thanks in advance!
-5 (or more) to 1 component
-5 (or more) to 1 HDMI
Thanks in advance!
D.Lo
Member
S-video to RGB isn't that huge a jump. 7.5/10 to 9/10 (where composite is 4/10).
The issue with cheap scalers is usually interlacing then deinterlacing, so you get blurry movement and massive input lag.
I have seen cheap RGB to HDMI scalers have a picture that looks okay in screenshots, but worse than composite in motion. Let alone S-video.
speedlolita
Member
Go to YAJ and look for SCPH-1050. I have three SCPH-1052 myself, amazing cable.
You might need to chain some switches.
Here are some pictures I took. The colors didn't come out exactly like they appear on the tv. As for the audio, my genesis scart cable has an audio cable attached to it. I hooked that into the headphone jack of the genesis which then goes to the tv via hdmi. I have an optical cable from my tv into my audio system to have the sound come through the external speakers because my tv speakers suck.
Overall I think this thing is a good choice for people who don't want to lug in a 200 pound tv and don't want to spend 400 dollars on a framemeister. The blurring during motion isn't noticeable to me until I stop moving and then I see that the image is more crisp. I was playing Sonic 2 and that game moves so fast I could hardly tell there was any blurring. It was more noticeable in Golden Axe where the camera is usually just sitting still and then moves a bit every time a few enemies are killed. When that would happen, it would be very obvious, but again I don't find it too bad.
Speaking of Sonic2, I have been playing that game on all sorts of different systems over they years (DS, XBLA, PC, etc) that I had forgotten how smoothly the original game actually runs. It's so much better than any of the emulated versions.
MegaMan X3 on Saturn
Genesis Shots:
Overall I think this thing is a good choice for people who don't want to lug in a 200 pound tv and don't want to spend 400 dollars on a framemeister. The blurring during motion isn't noticeable to me until I stop moving and then I see that the image is more crisp. I was playing Sonic 2 and that game moves so fast I could hardly tell there was any blurring. It was more noticeable in Golden Axe where the camera is usually just sitting still and then moves a bit every time a few enemies are killed. When that would happen, it would be very obvious, but again I don't find it too bad.
Speaking of Sonic2, I have been playing that game on all sorts of different systems over they years (DS, XBLA, PC, etc) that I had forgotten how smoothly the original game actually runs. It's so much better than any of the emulated versions.
MegaMan X3 on Saturn
Genesis Shots:
You mean like in the MegaMan picture? No. I took these shots from really close to the tv. Also the camera was catching things that are not actually visible. For example this shot really exaggerates the effects produced by the camera. Weird colors, jailbars that are not visible in person. Both of these artifacts are present in the above screenshots but not as much.
Here are some pictures I took. The colors didn't come out exactly like they appear on the tv. As for the audio, my genesis scart cable has an audio cable attached to it. I hooked that into the headphone jack of the genesis which then goes to the tv via hdmi. I have an optical cable from my tv into my audio system to have the sound come through the external speakers because my tv speakers suck.
Overall I think this thing is a good choice for people who don't want to lug in a 200 pound tv and don't want to spend 400 dollars on a framemeister. The blurring during motion isn't noticeable to me until I stop moving and then I see that the image is more crisp. I was playing Sonic 2 and that game moves so fast I could hardly tell there was any blurring. It was more noticeable in Golden Axe where the camera is usually just sitting still and then moves a bit every time a few enemies are killed. When that would happen, it would be very obvious, but again I don't find it too bad.
Speaking of Sonic2, I have been playing that game on all sorts of different systems over they years (DS, XBLA, PC, etc) that I had forgotten how smoothly the original game actually runs. It's so much better than any of the emulated versions.
MegaMan X3 on Saturn
Genesis Shots:
These shots dont look half bad. Its a great option for people that cant or wont invest in a pvm or xrgb. I am curios about input lag though. Can you link to the scart to hdmi adapter you use? Also, i think if you were to add an scanline generator into the setup, it would make it look even better.
Here's a link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00988GMLG/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Didn't realize there was such a thing as a standalone scanline generator. I'll have to take a look into that.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
$70 for a Sony PVM20M4U 20"?
Dang turns out the seller made a mistake and it's actually a 14M2U. Still a good deal?
Dang turns out the seller made a mistake and it's actually a 14M2U. Still a good deal?
NormalFish
Banned
theSlacker
Member
Sounds like a good deal if it is in working condition and not worn out. I paid more for mine.
Hells yes. Jump on it if the condition/geometry is good.
sixteen-bit
Member
assuming it's it good working condition, jump on it.
Is it Framemeister friendly at least?
Also is there a comparison of PS2 component Vs. RGB?
That pretty much looks like the one Adam Koralik in his RGB vids uses. It's not great... As you've noticed the picture is blurred as the scaler is pretty slow. It actually may be worse as a scaler than your HDTV. The benefit is in the fact that it starts off using RGB. Personally, I can't handle the blurred image in motion. A lot of other people here would also not be okay with the large input lag this scaler introduces. I'm not a big stickler for input lag but even I have my limits and I think the lag in this thing might actually affect me once everything else in my setup is considered. Your mileage may vary in your setup though.
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