Support NeoGAF

[Sixfortyfive]

Anyone have a recommendation for a currently available brand/series of smaller-sized 720p LCD TV's (25-35" range), good for low lag and sufficient inputs, etc? I'm giving this XRGBmini FM thing some thought, and the connected TV would be used only for 'retro' systems through the Wii, so I think a 720p display would be enough. (Was also thinking that keeping things to 720p would help minimize lag, but still learning/reading on this.) I was at Sam's Club yesterday casually looking at a 32" Samsung w/ 2 HDMI and 1 component input. It was $225. I didn't make note of the model number because it wasn't till later that I started thinking that with a TV under $250 and the low price on the FM right now due to the exchange rate, 'hey, this is almost affordable now.'

This is all about replacing a JVC CRT TV. I've been looking around for a quality CRT in my area and all I can find is junk.

edit:
I checked the Sam's site and I think the Samsung I looked at was the 32EH4003.

If you're mainly concerned about lag and only intend to use this display for sources that are 480p and lower, then I think you should be looking into one of the following configurations:

- a PVM w/ 480p support
- an XRGB-3 + a CRT VGA computer monitor
- a consumer EDTV CRT with component inputs

A Framemeister can do the job, but you'd absolutely need to pair it with a low-lag TV if you're sensitive to that kind of stuff.

720p vs 1080p shouldn't make a difference with regard to lag on most sets.

 

[Madao]

any idea for wii games?

Not sure if it's the game, but I was testing with Skyward Sword and there seemed to be horizontal banding of sorts in the picture. I thought maybe it the FM but I couldn't find a way to get rid of it. I've also read around and seen that a lot of people recommend some rather atypical settings for 480p sources so I wasn't sure if you had a certain set up you preferred.

I gotta dig up those discussions again.

SS is one of those games that trends to look bad regardless of what you do due to how it is presented. the only time i've seen it look good is emulator screenshots.

i'm gonna try making some pictures of wii games since the previous pics i had were of GC games only even though i used an actual wii.
one thing that i remember is that playing in widescreen actually degrades the quality of Wii games due to how anamorphic widescreen works. for the best FM settinsg you'll need to give up widescreen and play in 4:3 iirc.

 

[NormalFish]

SS is one of those games that trends to look bad regardless of what you do due to how it is presented. the only time i've seen it look good is emulator screenshots.

i'm gonna try making some pictures of wii games since the previous pics i had were of GC games only even though i used an actual wii.
one thing that i remember is that playing in widescreen actually degrades the quality of Wii games due to how anamorphic widescreen works. for the best FM settinsg you'll need to give up widescreen and play in 4:3 iirc.

okay so now I'm testing xenoblade and you're right. Skyward Sword just has a shit ton of that weird banding. Not even sure how to refer to it. Like they just forgot to input color in to certain textures on every other line.

 

[Peagles]

Open the scart plug end, it's likely to be something you can see in it. Post a pic if you can't, I'll take a look.

Thanks mate, I'll try get a photo up soon as I can't see anything touching or loose. Too hot to use the soldering iron today unfortunately but I might be able to give it a go next weekend.

Since putting the cable back together for now, it seems to have gotten worse too, bleh. I might try crack open the big box part too and see what's happening in there.

 

[televator]

So RiZ is happy with it but Televator and SixFortyFive say it stinks. Hmm. I am not sure how well my TV handles upscaling component vid. I'd assume the SCART to HDMI would add minimal lag?

EDIT: I should also mention my plasma TV has a VGA input. Maybe that is the best way to go?

Technically, an HDMI conversion necessitates scaling since HDMI doesn't support resolutions below 480p. Hence, whatever HDMI converter you use will introduce lag. However, how much better or worse said lag is depends on how good or bad your HDTV is to begin with since the TV can have a better, equal, or worse internal scaler.

In the case of the Framemeister... It's good... It's DAMN good.

So... is there a decently priced alternative to Framemeister that converts S-video to 1080p HDMI? I don't need scanlines or other fancy features, I just need that conversion to introduce minimal control lag, if possible. I have S-video cables for my Sega Saturn and my SNES but my TV doesn't even have an S-video input.

Anyway, I'm sure this has been asked a million times in this thread, but it's tough to search through 157 pages worth of stuff, so apologies in advance. Any tips are greatly appreciated.

I ask the question because everything about the Framemeister sounds awesome... except its price. It's, like... prohibitively expensive. I could buy a brand new 8th-gen console for around that price. But Composite does look like ass, and my only options are flat screens because I currently have no room where I live for an old-school CRT.

Because of this thread, I've gotten Component cables for my PS2, and a VGA cable for my Dreamcast. Holy cow. Night and day difference from the previous Composite connections. I'm sure that moving on up from Composite to S-Video will work wonders for my SNES and Sega Saturn.

If your TV takes 240p component well, just get some scart cables and a component converter box. You'll do better than S video without breaking the bank. It's got no frills and shouldn't introduce much, if any, lag than whatever is already produced by your setup.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Technically, an HDMI conversion necessitates scaling since HDMI doesn't support resolutions below 480p.

I've heard that there actually is a 240p spec for HDMI, but most devices don't implement it correctly.

 

[Khaz]

I just set up my Xbox with RGB SCART but I'm having a weird audio issue.

It has a great picture on my PVM but the sound is just... weird. The best way I can describe it is that it sounds like it's really really low bitrate. The sound is fine with component cables so it must be the SCART cable, but I'm not sure what the exact problem is. I splashed out on the official SCART cable so it's supposed to be decent quality. Could it be some kind of inferference?

It may be a stupid question but are you testing in on the same display or amp? Interferences sound like added (white) noise, it adds to the signal, not subtract anything. Crap soldering should make you hear crackles in the sound or intermittent silences.

I had a similar problem with a DVD player: sound was fine on the TV but once I extracted the audio from the scart to direct it to my amp, it sounded like very limited, lyrics were barely intelligible, bass were very poorly rendered. It turned out that my amp had a lower input threshold than my TV and I had to add a mixer to slightly lower the volume of the input signal. I used a Rolls MX42 that I already had, I could have used attenuators.

 

[RadarScope1]

Thanks Televator. I'll have to check my TV manual for supported resolutions. It's old enough (2008) that it just might do 240 but I'm doubting it.

 

[Peltz]

Thanks Televator. I'll have to check my TV manual for supported resolutions. It's old enough (2008) that it just might do 240 but I'm doubting it.

Even if it "supports" 240p via HDMI, it's still going to need to upscale the image to native resolution. I'm assuming you're using a fixed pixel display and not a CRT.

 

[Peagles]

It may be a stupid question but are you testing in on the same display or amp? Interferences sound like added (white) noise, it adds to the signal, not subtract anything. Crap soldering should make you hear crackles in the sound or intermittent silences.

I had a similar problem with a DVD player: sound was fine on the TV but once I extracted the audio from the scart to direct it to my amp, it sounded like very limited, lyrics were barely intelligible, bass were very poorly rendered. It turned out that my amp had a lower input threshold than my TV and I had to add a mixer to slightly lower the volume of the input signal. I used a Rolls MX42 that I already had, I could have used attenuators.

I'm just testing on my regular setup with SCART switch, PVM and stereo computer speakers. I haven't heard this kind of thing on my setup before. In the past (not on my setup) I've heard the buzzing that can happen but this isn't like that, its like it's just really low quality. I might try and record some so you can hear what I mean. I don't have a capture device so I'll try record with my phone or something.

The sound on my setup bypasses the PVM and goes straight from SCART switch to speakers, if that helps any.

 

[Peltz]

I'm just testing on my regular setup with SCART switch, PVM and stereo computer speakers. I haven't heard this kind of thing on my setup before. In the past (not on my setup) I've heard the buzzing that can happen but this isn't like that, its like it's just really low quality. I might try and record some so you can hear what I mean. I don't have a capture device so I'll try record with my phone or something.

The sound on my setup bypasses the PVM and goes straight from SCART switch to speakers, if that helps any.

Is your Xbox set to output in stereo? Make certain that you're selecting an appropriate output in the Xbox's settings. It's been a while, but I remember the OG Xbox's dashboard has several options for sound output.

 

[televator]

Even if it "supports" 240p via HDMI, it's still going to need to upscale the image to native resolution. I'm assuming you're using a fixed pixel display and not a CRT.

Are you really about to recomend that cheap HDMI scaler for its scaling ability? Because the scaling is terrible in motion. It really isn't a selling point when it's no better that what a bad internal scaler can do.

Anyway, general FYI: My Panasonic ST60 and PZ 800U took 240p over component. I'm inclined to say that any Panny ought to take 240p component, but I can't be absolute about it.

 

[Peagles]

Is your Xbox set to output in stereo?

Yes. Initially it wasn't and I was like ugh I can barely hear this, so I figured out how to set it to stereo, it's much more audible now but it's still messed up. I just woke up but I'll update with pics and stuff soon.

Are you really about to recomend that cheap HDMI scaler for its scaling ability? Because the scaling is terrible in motion. It really isn't a selling point when it's no better that what a bad internal scaler can do.

Anyway, general FYI: My Panasonic ST60 and PZ 800U took 240p over component. I'm inclined to say that any Panny ought to take 240p component, but I can't be absolute about it.

My ST50 wouldn't take 240p over component

 

[Peltz]

Are you really about to recomend that cheap HDMI scaler for its scaling ability? Because the scaling is terrible in motion. It really isn't a selling point when it's no better that what a bad internal scaler can do.

Hells no. My post wasn't clear. By that I meant that I'd recommend he avoid that cheap thing as well as his HDTV's native scaler if possible when dealing with 240p-native sources.

But yea, I agree with you. I'd probably stick to a random internal scaler over that external device if I had to make a guess as to which is the lesser of two evils.

 

[Lambtron]

Hey folks, I am fairly sure it's been answered before but I'm looking for a PSX SCART cable. It looks like retro_console_accessories won't have any for a while (if ever), and official ones seem to be almost impossible to find. I'm okay with pretty much any 3rd party one right?

 

[televator]

Hells no. I'd recommend he avoid that cheap thing as well as his HDTV's native scaler if possible when dealing with 240p-native sources.

Ah, good. My bad for assuming then. However, he did ask for cheap way to hook up to his HDTV and he or some other poster mentioned a lack of space for a CRT.

Edit: saw your edit.

I've heard that there actually is a 240p spec for HDMI, but most devices don't implement it correctly.

I guess it's a matter of neglect that makes it effectively an unsupported res.

My ST50 wouldn't take 240p over component

Bummer! Did you hook up directly or was there a reciever/other device in between?

 

[Khaz]

Hey folks, I am fairly sure it's been answered before but I'm looking for a PSX SCART cable. It looks like retro_console_accessories won't have any for a while (if ever), and official ones seem to be almost impossible to find. I'm okay with pretty much any 3rd party one right?

As long as you don't care for audio fidelity, yes.

 

[Peagles]

Bummer! Did you hook up directly or was there a reciever/other device in between?

Just a SCART to component transcoder. Been meaning to try the Wii VC but it's only got one component input so it's a pain to unplug and stuff. Plus I can never get the button combo to work anyway.

 

[Peltz]

As long as you don't care for audio fidelity, yes.

If you're playing on PS2, you can output sound via TOS link anyway.

 

[Timu]

I can't believe I'm experiencing RGB from my Genesis for the 1st time...it's like night and day against composhite!!!

 

[IrishNinja]

isn't it? congrats Timus, there's no going back now!

 

[RadarScope1]

Thanks, Televator and Peltz. I'll be able to test my TV's internal scaler soon (I think?) because I'm getting a Test PS2 and I plan to hook it up directly via component. A shmup or racer should give me a good idea right away. But that's 480, right? Would scaling from 240 be more intensive (lag-wise) than 480?

 

[Timu]

isn't it? congrats Timus, there's no going back now!

Yep, it's nice to not see rainbow banding or any thing that composhite gave to my games for once, will try with Sonic, TMNT:Hyperstone Heist, Shinobi and more as I get to them.

 

[drhankmccoyphd]

Just hooked up my pvm and everything's coming up milhouse.





Took me a while to figure how to switch from component to rgb mode but once I did it was a world of difference. The one thing I do notice is the color temperature seems to switch sometimes where the picture look a tiny bit whitewashed, then it'll switch back. Think it might be an auto setting someplace.

Oh and what does degaussing do?

 

[Peagles]

Okay here's both sides of the SCART end of the Xbox cable:

And I uploaded the intro music to GTA:SA to my Dropbox, hopefully it works...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qw5r8tt3zp77zah/GTA.m4a?dl=0

 

[Khaz]

And I uploaded the intro music to GTA:SA to my Dropbox, hopefully it works...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qw5r8tt3zp77zah/GTA.m4a?dl=0

Yep, this is exactly the sort of sound I was hearing on my DVD player. My diagnostic is that the Xbox output volume is too high for your receiver, resulting in clipping. I'm surprised it only does it with Scart and not with Component though, and only for one console.

Just to be sure I will try on my Xbox tomorrow, as I have both Scart and Component cables, and an amplifier known not to like loud input.

[edit] I just tried with my Component cable plugged directly to my amp. Sound is clipping like yours, however with the input volume toned down everything is fine. My Scart cable is buried somewhere in the attic so I won't test it now, but I'm fairly certain I'll get the same result.

[edit2] This is what I'm using:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00102ZN40/?tag=neogaf0e-20
A bit on the expensive side, but its fully passive meaning you don't need yet another power outlet. It mixes signals but we don't care as we only have one console on at a time, and it protects each console sound output unlike Y cables. As a bonus I can tone down consoles individually, which is very useful for the loud Wii. Having all the consoles outputs down to one input on the amp means I don't need to push yet another button to select the correct channel on the amp.

 

[Peagles]

Yep, this is exactly the sort of sound I was hearing on my DVD player. My diagnostic is that the Xbox output volume is too high for your receiver, resulting in clipping. I'm surprised it only does it with Scart and not with Component though.

Just to be sure I will try on my Xbox tomorrow, as I have both Scart and Component cables, and an amplifier known not to like loud input.

[edit] I just tried with my Component cable plugged directly to my amp. Sound is clipping like yours, however with the input volume toned down everything is fine. My Scart cable is buried somewhere in the attic so I won't test it now, but I'm fairly certain I'll get the same result.

[edit2] This is what I'm using:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00102ZN40/?tag=neogaf0e-20
A bit on the expensive side, but its fully passive meaning you don't need yet another power outlet. It mixes signals but we don't care as we only have one console on at a time, and it protects each console sound output unlike Y cables. As a bonus I can tone down consoles individually, which is very useful for the loud Wii. Having all the consoles outputs down to one input on the amp means I don't need to push yet another button to select the correct channel on the amp.

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it

I haven't tried the component cables on this setup because I can't get behind my PVM without moving a ton of stuff out. What I meant before is it doesn't happen with the component cables on our ST50; I only mentioned this before because I assumed it was the cables at fault.

The sound issue is present no matter what volume I have the speakers. I just had to turn it up to record it.

I'll take a look at that gadget but US dollar is really high for us at the moment and it'll cost $80 NZD or so to get one here. I might test with our FiiO first to see if that will actually solve it before I spend another $80 on this Xbox, lol.

Maybe I could just use headphones for the Xbox...

 

[D.Lo]

You could also add resistors to the audio lines, that's all a passive box would do.

 

[SummitAve]

Got a sony pvm recently and it has a bit of a high pitched whine to it. Normal?

 

[televator]

Got a sony pvm recently and it has a bit of a high pitched whine to it. Normal?

That's what a CRT does.

 

[NormalFish]

That's what a CRT does.

Yup. This is why I bought a Framemeister. the capacitor squeal kills me. Degaussing helps, but it only does so much.

 

[Peagles]

You could also add resistors to the audio lines, that's all a passive box would do.

That's interesting... I probably have a few around... Any particular rating you reckon?

Got a sony pvm recently and it has a bit of a high pitched whine to it. Normal?

A bit is probably normal. If it is really loud though it could be on its way out, I've had this happen with consumer CRTs before they broke.

I hear whining from modern TVs too, so I have just had to learn to deal with it, lol.

 

[D.Lo]

Try something between 20-50ohm, 50 will likely be a 50% reduction in source volume.

I always breadboard it up first to test various values.

 

[Peagles]

Try something between 20-50ohm, 50 will likely be a 50% reduction in source volume.

I always breadboard it up first to test various values.

Cheers mate, I'll see what I've got sitting around home. Won't be able to work on it for a few days but will update how it goes in case this becomes useful anyone else later in the thread

Update: Tried going through the little FiiO amp, sound is OK through that so far. Still slightly choppy though. Actually nah, it's still pretty much the same. Grr... Tried with the amp and some headphones too, still crappy as hell. Trying other headphones, still crackly and horrid. On the plus side, tried my SNES via the FiiO and headphones and it sounds amazing!

Update 2: Tried going through the big FiiO too and it's still choppy and gross.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Thanks, Televator and Peltz. I'll be able to test my TV's internal scaler soon (I think?) because I'm getting a Test PS2 and I plan to hook it up directly via component. A shmup or racer should give me a good idea right away. But that's 480, right? Would scaling from 240 be more intensive (lag-wise) than 480?

Try PS1 games on it. Those tend to be 240p most of the time, and occasionally 480i in menus and title screens. Gran Turismo is one such game.

Compare the results to the component or RGB captures in the OP and see if certain details are being smudged out. Checkerboard dithering patterns are an obvious thing to look for, as are any HUD elements that update on every single frame (timers, etc).

 

[RadarScope1]

Will do. Just re-read the OP (my god, Irish, what great info) and it recommends exactly that.

 

[drhankmccoyphd]

I just got my PVM 14M2U set up and everything is working great. The one thing I've noticed though is that on some games the pallette and coloring will switch to get a little warmer or whitewashed seemingly randomly. It will usually go back to normal by itself of if I switch to another system. I've noticed it on NES, SNES and Genesis, so far. I checked the settings and turned all the chroma and and color temp auto settings to OFF so I don't think it's that. Is this something normal? The seller I got it from said the unit was only used sparingly as a home editing monitor, but who knows. Could this just be noise from the cables or something equally simple?

 

[Peltz]

Will do. Just re-read the OP (my god, Irish, what great info) and it recommends exactly that.

I'm pretty sure Sixfortyfive wrote a lot of that.

 

[theSlacker]

Guy selling a BVM-20F1U and PVM-20L5 in my area for over double what I value them at with a "do not contact with low-ball offers" message. Time to hope they come down within a year.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

Guy selling a BVM-20F1U and PVM-20L5 in my area for over double what I value them at with a "do not contact with low-ball offers" message. Time to hope they come down within a year.

always the worst. then you send him a reasonable offer and he snaps back like you're some devious conman


as for this thread, I entertained a lot of different ideas since I still play a lot of PS2 and Xbox. but I ended up with a framemeister, which handles everything perfectly. Wish I had room for a nice CRT, but maybe later.

 

[rothgar]

Anybody know where I can buy an ABT-102 deinterlacing card for a DVDO VP30? TIA

 

[RadarScope1]

I'm pretty sure Sixfortyfive wrote a lot of that.

Ah, I should have known. Cheers and a hat tip to the both of them. Doing God's work.

 

[Peltz]

Been just doing some research on 480p CRT sets as I'd like to own one some day. 480p CRT is still the final frontier for my retro needs.

FYI - I came across this random short list of some 480p sets you should look out for:

•Sony PVM-14L5
•Sony PVM-20L5
•Sony BVM-D20F1U
•Sony BVM-F24U
•Sony BVM-1911
•JVC V1700CG
•JVC V1710CG
•JVC V1900CG
•JVC V1910CG
•Panasonic BT-H1700

 

[Khaz]

Can these 480p monitors handle 240p and lightguns properly?

 

[Peltz]

Can these 480p monitors handle 240p and lightguns properly?

I couldn't imagine why not.

 

[theSlacker]

Been just doing some research on 480p CRT sets as I'd like to own one some day. 480p CRT is still the final frontier for my retro needs.

FYI - I came across this random short list of some 480p sets you should look out for:

•Sony PVM-14L5
•Sony PVM-20L5
•Sony BVM-D20F1U
•Sony BVM-F24U
•Sony BVM-1911
•JVC V1700CG
•JVC V1710CG
•JVC V1900CG
•JVC V1910CG
•Panasonic BT-H1700

Watch out though, I see at least one set on that list that is a 16:9 set instead of a 4:3. That Sony BVM-F24U I believe.

 

[UMGAWA]

I picked up a Sony KV-K29SN21, does anyone have any knowledge on this model? Supposedly it's under the KV-K29CF1 range.

For a PAL tv, it only has s-video and composite.. And no scart, not a deal breaker though it has an awesome picture! Any tips on what settings I should be using?

 

[Peltz]

Watch out though, I see at least one set on that list that is a 16:9 set instead of a 4:3. That Sony BVM-F24U I believe.

Sounds like an F-zero GX/OG Xbox dream CRT

 

[D.Lo]

Sounds like an F-zero GX/OG Xbox dream CRT

Almost the whole Gamecube catalogue can be forced to widescreen these days. Some look so perfect it's hard to believe it's a hack.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Sounds like an F-zero GX/OG Xbox dream CRT

Gen 6 + Wii paradise