I would be very interested in this as well. I can try it when I get home, but I'll be at work/out for the next 4 hours or so.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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I would be very interested in this as well. I can try it when I get home, but I'll be at work/out for the next 4 hours or so.
This guy does a comparison in this video, but I'd take it with a grain of salt, he's been proven to be unreliable with his recommendations and analysis of things like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0J3ERZ3nTk
I'll take a comparison not done by that guy. He's good for the Dreamcast scene but his methods for picture analysis are not the best at times.
I personally have tried 1st party component cables vs retro_console_accessories RGB cable and found the latter to offer better color separation. Both are equally sharp though.
I think I'm going to grab a capture device this week. If anyone has any recommendations, I'd appreciate it. I'm not trying to break the bank.
Also, I'll finally do this comparison properly so that everyone can see the difference ;-)
Go with Startech or Micomsoft capture cards.
Cool. I'll read up on those brands and pick one out. Thanks for the help!
Anyways....
Even though this is slightly off topic considering it's emulation, I decided to invest $2 into checking out the new N64 virtual console on Wii U. Unfortunately, it wasn't very good.
It's still 480p-native upscaled to 1080p on the big screen. In fact, it looks identical to N64 VC in the Wii Boot mode as far as I can tell.
Input lag via the Gamepad was pretty tangible and controls felt mushy. It also seems like the Gamepad's video feed is a few frames behind my HDTV. It feels similar to the problem in NES and SNES games on the Gamepad.
It's disappointing. Luckily the main-HDTV video feed felt far more playable and more on par with what you'd expect. But save yourself the $2 unless you really have a fetish for Pro Controller, Gamepad, or remapping controls. There is no reason to "upgrade" from a video-quality perspective. It looks like they simply ported over the Wii VC emulator and are running it from the Wii U menu.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Can someone remind me which SCART to BNC cables I want to pipe the signals from my bainbridge SCART switch to a PVM?
NormalFish
Banned
The FM doesn't recognize RGsB, so no. There are folks over at shmups who can point you in the right direction for converting it to something the FM can figure out. I don't know if the XRGB3 can figure it out, but I'd wager "no".
There isn't a good comparison AFAIK. Certainly not for PS2 games, anyway, let alone for 480p games since it's a pain in the ass to get 480p over SCART to work.
**It actually occurs to me that I can do a 480i/240p comparison for SCART vs Component via XRGB FM this weekend assuming my SCART cable is delivered and not defective. If folks want, I can do that.
Doesn't the FM accept RGsB through the D-terminal input with a passive adapter?
Edit: I think I'm confusing RGsB with YPbPr.
RadarScope1
Member
These shots look pretty good.Here are some pictures I took. The colors didn't come out exactly like they appear on the tv. As for the audio, my genesis scart cable has an audio cable attached to it. I hooked that into the headphone jack of the genesis which then goes to the tv via hdmi. I have an optical cable from my tv into my audio system to have the sound come through the external speakers because my tv speakers suck.
Overall I think this thing is a good choice for people who don't want to lug in a 200 pound tv and don't want to spend 400 dollars on a framemeister. The blurring during motion isn't noticeable to me until I stop moving and then I see that the image is more crisp. I was playing Sonic 2 and that game moves so fast I could hardly tell there was any blurring. It was more noticeable in Golden Axe where the camera is usually just sitting still and then moves a bit every time a few enemies are killed. When that would happen, it would be very obvious, but again I don't find it too bad.
Speaking of Sonic2, I have been playing that game on all sorts of different systems over they years (DS, XBLA, PC, etc) that I had forgotten how smoothly the original game actually runs. It's so much better than any of the emulated versions.
MegaMan X3 on Saturn
Genesis Shots:
So, would I be able to use this converter with a SNES and an RGB cable from retro_console_accessories and expect to get a pretty decent experience on a higher end Panasonic plasma? I'd like to try that. It would only cost about $75 as opposed to $300+ for a Framemeister.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
After all the shit we gave Adam K for ignorantly touting that device's supposed merits, it would be an injustice to let it go unchecked when someone in this thread does the same.
Get a SCART-to-component converter that doesn't upscale if you want something cheap (and if your TV doesn't butcher 240p component sources too hard). Don't bother with that thing.
Get a SCART-to-component converter that doesn't upscale if you want something cheap (and if your TV doesn't butcher 240p component sources too hard). Don't bother with that thing.
yeah. it's such a letdown. i was looking forward to 1080p emulation (or at least 720p). the fact it looked identical is a bummer.
at least it was just $2 and not $10. i don't see myself spending much on these outside games i want to replay badly.
i made a video comparing all versions. my excitement died when i finished making it since the Wii U VC version looks barely different than Wii VC (the difference is a bit more on TV but it's pretty negligible)
it's crazy how, 9 years later, VC emulation for N64 is still the same. clearly, Nintendo didn't see it was worth it to redo these emulators to render in HD. one more casualty due to shitty Wii U sales.
Well that's a shame. Might as well have an HDMI converter for that signal then.
Well that was only half the problem with Adam. Iirc, he touted it as "best quality" or even better than RGB on a CRT... which it sure as fuck isn't.
Either way, yeah. Just convert to component and let the TV do the scaling, cause that scaler is as bad as it gets.
NyMartin90
Member
anyone want to share with me their alignment settings for the bvm-20f1u? I'm having trouble setting the geometry
Yup it should work for an snes. I ran this on 50' 720p plasma and a 60' 1080p plasma and they both worked. The only thing I noticed was that on the 1080p one, the image was offset to one side. It wasn't cut off though, so it wasn't a big deal.
RadarScope1
Member
So RiZ is happy with it but Televator and SixFortyFive say it stinks. Hmm. I am not sure how well my TV handles upscaling component vid. I'd assume the SCART to HDMI would add minimal lag?
EDIT: I should also mention my plasma TV has a VGA input. Maybe that is the best way to go?
EDIT: I should also mention my plasma TV has a VGA input. Maybe that is the best way to go?
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Dang turns out the seller made a mistake and it's actually a 14M2U. Still a good deal?
Yes.
sixteen-bit
Member
Talk the seller down to $50 or $60
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Done and done, thanks, fellas.
So I think I'm nearly ready to pull the trigger on a Framemeister. Looking at Solaris it looks like I can get one for about $285 shipped. Are there any chances of picking up a used one for any cheaper or is that my best bet? Does anyone know if they still go for this much in Japan?
RadarScope1
Member
Wow, really? Solaris is showing $311 plus shipping for me. Where do you see $285?
InfiniteCombo
Banned
So... is there a decently priced alternative to Framemeister that converts S-video to 1080p HDMI? I don't need scanlines or other fancy features, I just need that conversion to introduce minimal control lag, if possible. I have S-video cables for my Sega Saturn and my SNES but my TV doesn't even have an S-video input.
Anyway, I'm sure this has been asked a million times in this thread, but it's tough to search through 157 pages worth of stuff, so apologies in advance. Any tips are greatly appreciated.
I ask the question because everything about the Framemeister sounds awesome... except its price. It's, like... prohibitively expensive. I could buy a brand new 8th-gen console for around that price. But Composite does look like ass, and my only options are flat screens because I currently have no room where I live for an old-school CRT.
Because of this thread, I've gotten Component cables for my PS2, and a VGA cable for my Dreamcast. Holy cow. Night and day difference from the previous Composite connections. I'm sure that moving on up from Composite to S-Video will work wonders for my SNES and Sega Saturn.
Anyway, I'm sure this has been asked a million times in this thread, but it's tough to search through 157 pages worth of stuff, so apologies in advance. Any tips are greatly appreciated.
I ask the question because everything about the Framemeister sounds awesome... except its price. It's, like... prohibitively expensive. I could buy a brand new 8th-gen console for around that price. But Composite does look like ass, and my only options are flat screens because I currently have no room where I live for an old-school CRT.
Because of this thread, I've gotten Component cables for my PS2, and a VGA cable for my Dreamcast. Holy cow. Night and day difference from the previous Composite connections. I'm sure that moving on up from Composite to S-Video will work wonders for my SNES and Sega Saturn.
You know what the page shows yen first and then dollars so it threw me off. I just briefly glanced at the numbers and took it as yen so when I converted the price it came out to $285.
Now even more reason to find a slightly better deal although it may not be possible.
RadarScope1
Member
Well, think about this: it was $400 not too long ago. The weak yen has driven the dollar price down a bit. Still about $400+ on ebay. Solaris is the cheapest place I've been able to find. I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger ... of course, I've been saying that for about a year now.
That's why I'm glad I bought my Frameister before the Canadian dollar tumbled along with oil prices, haha.
RadarScope1
Member
Financial analysts are predicting the U.S. dollar to continue to gain ground against the yen throughout 2015. I have been thinking I might wait and give myself a FM for Xmas. Of course, there's no guarantee that Solaris or other sellers will adjust the price accordingly. They just make more at the same price point if the dollar gets stronger.
I use a DVDO VP30 with ABT102 deinterlacer card for everything from my SNES with S-video to a LaserDisc player. I think I paid $65 on EBay. Results for me are exceptional for the price.
Guess ill continue my super famicom buying spree......
I don't notice any lag. The most input time sensitive game I played was sonic 2 and it seemed fine to me. As I said, this setup won't get you perfect results like with framemiester as it introduces blurring during movement. However for me personally, it still seems like a huge upgrade for a very decent price.
My samsung led dlp has VGA input, however it doesn't support 480p or lower resolutions through it. Idk how common that restriction is.
RadarScope1
Member
Is there any chance that the blurring is at all related to the DLP tech? I have a Panasonic plasma. I guess I could handle some blurring but more than a little might really start to annoy me.
Anyone have a recommendation for a currently available brand/series of smaller-sized 720p LCD TV's (25-35" range), good for low lag and sufficient inputs, etc? I'm giving this XRGBmini FM thing some thought, and the connected TV would be used only for 'retro' systems through the Wii, so I think a 720p display would be enough. (Was also thinking that keeping things to 720p would help minimize lag, but still learning/reading on this.) I was at Sam's Club yesterday casually looking at a 32" Samsung w/ 2 HDMI and 1 component input. It was $225. I didn't make note of the model number because it wasn't till later that I started thinking that with a TV under $250 and the low price on the FM right now due to the exchange rate, 'hey, this is almost affordable now.'
This is all about replacing a JVC CRT TV. I've been looking around for a quality CRT in my area and all I can find is junk.
edit:
I checked the Sam's site and I think the Samsung I looked at was the 32EH4003.
This is all about replacing a JVC CRT TV. I've been looking around for a quality CRT in my area and all I can find is junk.
edit:
I checked the Sam's site and I think the Samsung I looked at was the 32EH4003.
sixteen-bit
Member
At those size you might want to look at gaming monitors with low input lag ratings. I do my HD gaming on one of those old Evo monitors which doesn't look too great in terms of IQ these days but I can't complain about lag.
I'm playing on a plasma. I have a dlp as well and that's the one with a VGA input. I was just saying you should check what resolutions your tv supports via the VGA input if you don't want an external upscaler.
I considered that but the drawback (I am quite the novice at looking at all this, so please correct me if I'm off) would be no component input. From what I've read the FM would work wonders for all my old consoles, except the Wii, which would be better off inputted directly into the TV on component.
I guess I could use a Wii2HDMI dongle to run the Wii on a PC monitor?
Moor-Angol
Banned
the difference from A/V to D-Terminal is.... huge !!!!
REZ (PS2)
Ridge Racer (PS1)
Automodellista (PS2)
all screenshots took from PS2 hooked up to the FM
REZ (PS2)
Ridge Racer (PS1)
Automodellista (PS2)
all screenshots took from PS2 hooked up to the FM
NormalFish
Banned
What kind of A/V cable?
Moor-Angol
Banned
the one included with the PS2, D-Terminal is a third party cable
NormalFish
Banned
so Composite? The red/white audio and single yellow video?
I just set up my Xbox with RGB SCART but I'm having a weird audio issue.
It has a great picture on my PVM but the sound is just... weird. The best way I can describe it is that it sounds like it's really really low bitrate. The sound is fine with component cables so it must be the SCART cable, but I'm not sure what the exact problem is. I splashed out on the official SCART cable so it's supposed to be decent quality. Could it be some kind of inferference?
It has a great picture on my PVM but the sound is just... weird. The best way I can describe it is that it sounds like it's really really low bitrate. The sound is fine with component cables so it must be the SCART cable, but I'm not sure what the exact problem is. I splashed out on the official SCART cable so it's supposed to be decent quality. Could it be some kind of inferference?
i dunno but i have the Wii hooked up to the FM and it looks much better than what is produced if i plug it directly to the TV.
i'm 90% sure most of the people who said the Wii looked worse either had crap cables or just plugged the Wii without changing any options in the FM and decided it was crap without even trying (default FM setting do look bad. you have to fiddle with some things to make it look better than direct TV connection)
NormalFish
Banned
I'm curious what you fiddled with to make it look good. I've had mixed results with my wii through FM.
Moor-Angol
Banned
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=154455661&postcount=7368
those are the pics i made a while ago. main thing i used was the Smart x2 filter with the mini outputting 1080p. atm i can't remember the other things i messed with but i'll take a look to see the exact settings and post them.
it seems lag only affects super twitchy games like competitive SSBM. i can handle F-Zero GX on master pretty easily with the FM. the lag is very low overall and you won't feel it unless it is a frame-perfect game.
the guy in the discussion wanted it for competitive SSBM so the FM was bad for him.
also, my TV doesn't seem to handle 480p that good at all from what i've seen. i think all configurations need to be tested by each person since all TVs are different.
NormalFish
Banned
any idea for wii games?
Not sure if it's the game, but I was testing with Skyward Sword and there seemed to be horizontal banding of sorts in the picture. I thought maybe it the FM but I couldn't find a way to get rid of it. I've also read around and seen that a lot of people recommend some rather atypical settings for 480p sources so I wasn't sure if you had a certain set up you preferred.
I gotta dig up those discussions again.
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