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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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InfiniteCombo

InfiniteCombo

Banned
Before I ever read this thread, I had:

- SNES -> HDTV (composite)
- Dreamcast -> (composite)
- PS2 -> HDTV (component)

As we are about to start OT2, I have:

SNES -> XRGB Mini (S-Video)
Genesis -> XRGB Mini (SCART)
PS2 -> XRGB Mini (D Terminal)
Saturn -> XRGB Mini (S-Video)

And obviously the XRGB Mini is hooked up to my HDTV via HDMI cable, and scanlines are enabled.

The Dreamcast is hooked up to a separate monitor via VGA.

Obviously I still have some work to do (replace those S-video connections with SCART), but man, my retro gaming life has been improved immensely because of this thread. I feel like I can be a retro gaming version of one of those "before and after" success commercials.

Thanks guys! :) Can't wait for the new thread.
 
P

Peltz

Member
Before this thread I was running everything composite to my HDTV and just dealing with the ugliness. Now, everything is SCART, and I have an XRGB Mini, and own three different broadcast quality monitors.

In fact, this is the thread that made become a member of NeoGAF in the first place :)
 
G

geniusbits

Member
theclaw135 said:
For curiosity's sake, what are the largest standard definition 4:3 CRTs? That do not accept or support 480p in any fashion. Any model numbers to yay or nay?
Click to expand...
I've seen a professional Mitsubishi monitor that was 43", but I think it was multi-sync and could accept 480p. There are 36" 15khz Trinitrons out there that are pretty easy to find.
 
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geniusbits

Member
Mega said:
No point. We're not color grading photos or video footage for clients here and the equipment isn't made for video games. Unlike real human skin tones, there's no one precise color for Mario's overalls. I'm not even sure how you would use that with your consoles as I'm pretty sure it's meant to be for creating custom color profiles on a PC connected to a display.
Click to expand...
I guess not that exact piece of gear. My concern is that with something like the Framemeister, there are TV calibration settings, then you can change stuff in the FM, and I just don't trust my eyes. I feel like someone could show me things that are a little off and convince me it's correct.
 
P

purdobol

Member
geniusbits said:
I guess not that exact piece of gear. My concern is that with something like the Framemeister, there are TV calibration settings, then you can change stuff in the FM, and I just don't trust my eyes. I feel like someone could show me things that are a little off and convince me it's correct.
Click to expand...

The only thing that is mandatory in terms of tv calibration for games is checking if color balance is ok. In my opinion anyway. Using this pattern
Color.png

I just check if all 3 colors are equally visible (dark ones). And if the grayscale is tinted or not. And adjust accordingly. I do not bother with white balance or proper contrast because it just depends on personal preference and surroundings (playing in dark vs daylight).
 
K

Khaz

Member
Don't forget to put your TV at 6500K if it's not already done. It may feel too orange at first but it's really not, it's 9300K that is too blue and messing with your eyes.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
holy shit, can't believe we're nearly at OT2! i'm okay with someone else doing it, but really, i think we should honor 645's work and keep much of (if not all) the OT itself intact, personally

Peltz said:
Before this thread I was running everything composite to my HDTV and just dealing with the ugliness. Now, everything is SCART, and I have an XRGB Mini, and own three different broadcast quality monitors.

In fact, this is the thread that made become a member of NeoGAF in the first place :)
Click to expand...

ah that's awesome! yeah, i wanna say i only had my XRGB a short time before attempting this one, cool that it's got so much attention here & elsewhere!
 
S

Shin Johnpv

Member
I say we keep the info but I think it could be edited and refined and I think there could be some framemeister info up there (like how to update it, and some other quirks). I'd be willing to contribute towards updating and refining some of it. Though the weekend is crazy for me, so I can get a rough edit probably monday or tuesday ish.
 
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NormalFish

Banned
IrishNinja said:
holy shit, can't believe we're nearly at OT2! i'm okay with someone else doing it, but really, i think we should honor 645's work and keep much of (if not all) the OT itself intact, personally
Click to expand...
We might be better served keeping a link to this thread or something. I mean we've discussed pretty recently how there's a lot of information that would be nice to include, which this OP doesn't have room for. Perhaps that can be solved by reserving a few initial posts, though.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
Shin Johnpv said:
I say we keep the info but I think it could be edited and refined and I think there could be some framemeister info up there (like how to update it, and some other quirks). I'd be willing to contribute towards updating and refining some of it. Though the weekend is crazy for me, so I can get a rough edit probably monday or tuesday ish.
Click to expand...

down for such refinements whenever you have time man!

NormalFish said:
We might be better served keeping a link to this thread or something. I mean we've discussed pretty recently how there's a lot of information that would be nice to include, which this OP doesn't have room for. Perhaps that can be solved by reserving a few initial posts, though.
Click to expand...

hadn't even thought of that, that might be a great option too
 
InfiniteCombo

InfiniteCombo

Banned
Peltz said:
Before this thread I was running everything composite to my HDTV and just dealing with the ugliness. Now, everything is SCART, and I have an XRGB Mini, and own three different broadcast quality monitors.

In fact, this is the thread that made become a member of NeoGAF in the first place :)
Click to expand...

3d8.gif
 
T

Timu

Member
Peltz said:
Before this thread I was running everything composite to my HDTV and just dealing with the ugliness.
Click to expand...
I stopped using composite seriously once I found out about svideo. Since then I always use the best video quality for each console, whenever it's svideo, component, RGB or VGA!
 
D

dubc35

Member
RE: new OT: We should block off the first couple posts so we're not limited to one. Also Mega offered to create some bandwidth filling options on the last page.

I had no idea what a PVM or RGB was before viewing this thread. I was playing my SNES via s-video and my Genesis via composite on a HDTV. Both are now RGBs on a PVM.
 
R

Ramune

Member
Timu said:
I stopped using composite seriously once I found out about svideo. Since then I always use the best video quality for each console, whenever it's svideo, component, RGB or VGA!
Click to expand...

Same here. Only it was RF I was using. I used S-video on everything except NES and Genesis (they were on RF previously) and before getting my HDTV I was on a tiny 15" with a Radio Shack S-Video Modulator and rocking my Logitech Z-2300 set. REFUSED to go below S-video from that moment on! Also stereo sound from mono. Wish I could find the pics I took of that setup, heh!
 
M

Mega

Banned
dubc35 said:
RE: new OT: We should block off the first couple posts so we're not limited to one. Also Mega offered to create some bandwidth filling options on the last page.

I had no idea what a PVM or RGB was before viewing this thread. I was playing my SNES via s-video and my Genesis via composite on a HDTV. Both are now RGBs on a PVM.
Click to expand...

I was kidding, nobody wants that :)

Fabthegnome said:
Thank you for the advice, I happened to be offered a BVM-20F1U/E earlier this week too with about 60k hours on it for around £350, so I'm still having trouble making up my mind, but £70 for the 14L2 would certainly be easier on the wallet. XD
Click to expand...

I think 350 is steep for a BVM with 60k hours, but people are paying even more for them now, so...

The L2 is probably quite a bit newer with lower hours (there's no hour counter for PVMs but you can eyeball the sharpness and PQ). Seems like a much better deal to me at 70 and I would pick it over the BVM. You might be alarmed at how deep and boxy the BVM is in person (partially because it takes these large input cards in the back). If mine didn't have low hours (8k), so many menu options and a flawless picture, I would have gotten rid of it. It's a heavy, space-hogging beast for only a 20" screen.
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Visited my gran today and it looked like her old Trinitron is finally about the kick the bucket.

ypsZvxP.jpg


It goes without saying that this being the TV of a senior citizen, it's been put through an ungodly amount of hours of telenovelas, so it may be toast for good.

Does anybody know if this is fixable? I really have no idea if this is a cap issue or something else; it's just a massively out of focus, blurry mess with terrible colours. I'll gift her a newer LCD set since it's easier and cheaper than sending it to the repair shop, but I wouldn't mind having a busted CRT around to experiment with it if I can fix it.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
I saw one of those nice Toshiba CRTs on the street. S-video and component!

Tempted to pick it up lol.

This is what this thread has done to me!

It's a 32 inch behemoth, so I'm skipping it. Tempting tho.
 
N

Narroo

Member
OT2: How the heck do those people find PVMs lying around for $200 bucks!?

Congratulations on the thread! Perhaps when OT2 goes up we can get an updated OP?
 
D

DracoBlade

Member
image1_zpsxh7ckusa.jpg
Click to expand...

Hey guys, recently picked up a Sony Trinitron KV27XBR36 27" (Pictured). Been dying to play Time Crisis outside my local arcade (as well as some House of the Dead) but wanted to make sure first: does this model support light guns?

I ask because, in some quick google searches, there seem to be varying reports of XBR's having trouble with lightgun compatibility apparently. It's from 1993 so, based on tech alone, I'd immediately hazard it has to work but I read something about XBR's having Hi-Scan or something that impedes light gun sensors?

Also. Any general impressions on the quality of picture on XBRs? I have a later trinitron (with severe geometry issues) back home in the CA central valley that im unable to lug up to the SF bay area so I'm stoked to have a new CRT :)
 
K

Khaz

Member
DracoBlade said:
Hey guys, recently picked up a Sony Trinitron KV27XBR36 27" (Pictured). Been dying to play Time Crisis outside my local arcade (as well as some House of the Dead) but wanted to make sure first: does this model support light guns?
Click to expand...

It's a CRT, it's not HD, it does.

The only CRT TVs that can't use a light gun are ED/HD TVs (480p and up), and 100Hz SD TVs.
 
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Narroo

Member
Mega said:
Edit
Click to expand...

Good edit.

Actually, some equipment hunting resources and tips would be nice, such as how some people get their hands on certain displays, or tips for buying upscalers. (As far as I know, there's only 1 or 2 sites to buy a Framemeister).
 
A

Ashby

Member
Would I see an improvement in picture quality if I got a SCART cable for my PC Engine and then hooked that up to my HDTV set with a SCART-to-Component box?
 
S

Shin Johnpv

Member
Ashby said:
Would I see an improvement in picture quality if I got a SCART cable for my PC Engine and then hooked that up to my HDTV set with a SCART-to-Component box?
Click to expand...

You'd need to mod your PC Engine for RGB first (I'm assuming you haven't) but yes RGB to Component would produce a much better picture than rf or composite. Though you need to make sure your HDTV can handle a 240p signal properly first.
 
A

Ashby

Member
Shin Johnpv said:
You'd need to mod your PC Engine for RGB first (I'm assuming you haven't) but yes RGB to Component would produce a much better picture than rf or composite. Though you need to make sure your HDTV can handle a 240p signal properly first.
Click to expand...

From what I've read you don't need to mod the PC Engine, there are cables. How do I make sure my TV can handle a 240p signal?
 
C

catabarez

Member
Ashby said:
From what I've read you don't need to mod the PC Engine, there are cables. How do I make sure my TV can handle a 240p signal?
Click to expand...

Original PC Engine? For the original Turbografx or PC Engine you can get an attachment that outputs RGB. The Duos need to be RGB modded. None have RGB unmodded.

Edit: Huh. Looks like there is a special cable you can get that hooks up to where the CD attachment hooks up. Downside is you can't play CD games. Going with an internal mod is always preferable.

To answer your question 240p Suite would be a good way to test it.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
entremet said:
I saw one of those nice Toshiba CRTs on the street. S-video and component!

Tempted to pick it up lol.

This is what this thread has done to me!

It's a 32 inch behemoth, so I'm skipping it. Tempting tho.
Click to expand...

i mean, if you're gonna have a CRT, might as well be massive

televator said:
OSSC, an explanation of color spaces and upscaling processes, RGB limited Vs Full, and I'd also like to see an inclusion of how to get good audio playback from these old machines.
Click to expand...

okay these are some fine suggestions, that sounds useful. you guys really wanna make it a "Retro Gaming Done Right" catchall and include audio stuff, too?

Mega said:
Edit
Click to expand...

haha, for real

televator said:
I don't dislike CGR. I just don't find much utility in their reviews.
Click to expand...

well yeah, that's very much not what they're for, as far as technical stuff. i do so love watching atari, DC etc reviews of lesser known games just to get a feel for them though
 
C

catabarez

Member
Guys what other RGB systems are there? My gscartsw has Dreamcast, Genesis, Saturn, N64, SNES, NES, and PC Engine Duo with one extra slot for my 2600 when I get it RGB modded. I have a power base converter so I don't need a Master System and I play PS1 games on my PS2.
 
T

televator

Member
IrishNinja said:
okay these are some fine suggestions, that sounds useful. you guys really wanna make it a "Retro Gaming Done Right" catchall and include audio stuff, too?
Click to expand...

Yeah, why not make it a retro game AV club?

IrishNinja said:
PS1 & 2, PAL GC's i guess but like the xbox i'd definitely take that over component
Click to expand...

There's no improvement in Wii RGB over component. It's not the kind of case where one argues that due to your limited perception during fast playback... you won't notice that there was any loss... blah-blah-blah.... The Wii is a special case where the RGB signal is obtained from the same source as the component one that was already formatted for the component color space. Xbox SCART RGB is far worse than 480p + component due to the god forsaken filter Xbox applies to 480i - which is the only resolution possible on a stock Xbox's SCART RGB.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
ah, i meant id take GC & xbox over component, any day of the week - fantastic output & a number of titles supporting the increased resolution, too. PS2 i feel can go either way, though again i lean towards RGB for mine.
 
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