Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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Does anyone have any info about the Retron 5 re: input lag and screen tearing?

There isn't a single NES emulator out there that DOESN'T have horrible input lag or screen tearing or a vsync implementation that causes input lag in full screen. There's not a single one - at least not a Windows one. So I'm wondering how the Retron 5 fares here...
 
Xion_Stellar said:
So is there a VGA converter (to component or HDMI) that anyone would recommend? Or any of them will do just fine?
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The one thing you have to look out for when converting Dreamcast VGA to another signal is how the device handles horizontal resolution scaling. The Dreamcast is a little weird in that it outputs a 720x480 signal (NTSC TV standard) with only the middle 640x480 pixels filled (VGA standard). As long as you find something that doesn't stretch the picture incorrectly you're probably OK.

Fudoh covered this in a review of a specific TV last year; I'm not sure if it's universally applicable to all TV sets though:

Fudoh said:
To get a Dreamcast connected in perfect quality, you have to an analogue RGBHV to component transcoder (available from companies like Kramer Israel, Audio Authority or Crescendo Systems, starting from roughly $50 for second hand units on eBay). A cheaper alternative to a transcoder solution is a VGA to HDMI converter (available from about $30). Using an analogue transcoder offers two major advantages though: first the scaling engine [the Sony KDL-42W650 TV] uses on the component input is better suited for ED video game material than the scaling engine utilized on the HDMI inputs is. Second the Dreamcast delivers a rather weird output signal (640x480p active pixels on a 720x480p carrier signal with SMTPE timings). Using a transcoder, this signal gets converted into a 100% perfect 480p component signal, while a HDMI converter "only" converts the signal into a 640x480p VESA timing. This way you're losing 80 columns of pixels due to wrong sampling applied in the display. Fine patterns (for example single pixel checkerboard patters used on the life bars in a number of fighting games) can then no longer be displayed without artefacts or moiré patters. Analogue transcoders are completely lag free. VGA to HDMI converters (at least the cheaper kind) usually work with a line based buffer that introduces a maximum additional delay of 1 ms. Gefen's VGA to DVI or HDMI Scaler Plus units are perfectly suited for the DC as well, but the lag is a little higher than with a pure transcoder solution and the upscaling quality is about the same when using Sony's scaling engine directly.
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jarosh said:
Does anyone have any info about the Retron 5 re: input lag and screen tearing?

There isn't a single NES emulator out there that DOESN'T have horrible input lag or screen tearing or a vsync implementation that causes input lag in full screen. There's not a single one - at least not a Windows one. So I'm wondering how the Retron 5 fares here...
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Not as far as I'm aware. I was really irritated that Digital Foundry of all places didn't even bother with a proper test of the more technical aspects of the system, so I'm still waiting on this as well.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
Not as far as I'm aware. I was really irritated that Digital Foundry of all places didn't even bother with a proper test of the more technical aspects of the system, so I'm still waiting on this as well.
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None of the hardcore collectors and retro fanatics on YouTube seem to give a shit either. It's kinda shocking, such an integral part of the emulation.



On another note, how are you guys NOT freaking out over the Analogue Nt?

http://www.analogueinteractive.com/

product4.jpg


I mean, yes, it's fucking expensive, holy shit... but, a re-engineered Famicom/NES with TRUE RGB? Sign me the fuck up! The number one reason that's kept me from playing all of my NES carts (especially on my Plasma) is the system's truly mindbogglingly shitty composite signal, which doesn't even look good on a CRT, in my opinion.
 
I like the idea of the NT, even if it's too rich for my blood. Going the NES RGB route is a bit cheaper so I'll probably do that instead.

I'm guessing people will become more interested once we have an actual release date.
 
^does it do FDS?
to be honest its lovely but pricey, and id be way more interested if a top-tier RGB mod for the NES hadn't shown up at the end of last year, kinda killed most of my need personally
 
sixteen-bit said:
I like the idea of the NT, even if it's too rich for my blood. Going the NES RGB route is a bit cheaper so I'll probably do that instead.
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You mean a titler? Or an RGB NES hacked together from a PlayChoice-10 chip? Or is there some other way people are hacking RGB into Famicoms now...?

IrishNinja said:
^does it do FDS?
to be honest its lovely but pricey, and id be way more interested if a top-tier RGB mod for the NES hadn't shown up at the end of last year, kinda killed most of my need personally
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It does do FDS, yeah. Clearly I'm not aware of this RGB mod you guys are talking about! Tell me more!
 
The Nt almost assuredly uses an NESRGB board or something heavily based on it. The palette selector (Classic, Modern, Arcade) is the biggest giveaway.

jarosh said:
On another note, how are you guys NOT freaking out over the Analogue Nt?
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It certainly looks like a quality product, but the price is prohibitive. People in here are generally more likely to spend less to get equivalently functional mods for original systems instead.

The asking price of the Nt seems like it would only make sense if you're interested in literally every extra function that it provides. I have no present need for things like the audio mods (and have a pretty low opinion of "stereo" NES mods in the first place), and I can just buy a Four Score adapter if and when I want 4P compatibility.

IrishNinja said:
^does it do FDS?
to be honest its lovely but pricey, and id be way more interested if a top-tier RGB mod for the NES hadn't shown up at the end of last year, kinda killed most of my need personally
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You can hook an FDS up to the Nt, but it doesn't have FDS hardware built-in.

That might have pushed me over the edge myself. Getting a functional FDS can be an ordeal if you live outside of Japan.
 
Fuck me, I'd buy that thing in a heartbeat... but looking at the installation instructions, not a chance. Way too much of a hassle. I'm not good at that sort of thing. I'd probably screw it up and destroy both the NES and the board in the process.

That said, uhm, I'd definitely pay quite a few extra bucks for a fully modified console or at least for someone doing the dirty work for me. Anyone selling theirs or offering to modify one? shutupandtakemymoney.jpg etc.
 
jarosh said:
Fuck me, I'd buy that thing in a heartbeat... but looking at the installation instructions, not a chance. Way too much of a hassle. I'm not good at that sort of thing. I'd probably screw it up and destroy both the NES and the board in the process.

That said, uhm, I'd definitely pay quite a few extra bucks for a fully modified console or at least for someone doing the dirty work for me. Anyone selling theirs or offering to modify one? shutupandtakemymoney.jpg etc.
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PM baphomet if you're interested in having the mod done. I believe he was selling a pre-modded one as well, though I'm unsure if it's still available.
 
I'm on board for the nt. Getting all the major functional mods and regional conveniences that are found in it from a top loader or av famicom isn't that much cheaper, but it is much easier to just pick up the nt and be done with it. And it sure looks a hell of a lot better than the toaster. As much as I like the NES since it was the first system I ever owned, I always hated the fucking toaster's design. Even four year old me was like:
67b.jpg
 
Sixfortyfive said:
Not as far as I'm aware. I was really irritated that Digital Foundry of all places didn't even bother with a proper test of the more technical aspects of the system, so I'm still waiting on this as well.
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I can't remember who it was, but with the NeoGeoX Gold there was only one proper and honest review (on Youtube) and they got so much abuse hurled at them for their criticisms, I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens with the Retron5.


Also, the Analogue NT, while nice looking, is going to have to get some pretty good reviews for me to consider it too. Unless it offers something substantial over my NESRGB cinder block though, I'm not sure what the point of getting one would be.
 
jarosh said:
Fuck me, I'd buy that thing in a heartbeat... but looking at the installation instructions, not a chance. Way too much of a hassle. I'm not good at that sort of thing. I'd probably screw it up and destroy both the NES and the board in the process.

That said, uhm, I'd definitely pay quite a few extra bucks for a fully modified console or at least for someone doing the dirty work for me. Anyone selling theirs or offering to modify one? shutupandtakemymoney.jpg etc.
Click to expand...

Yea I can install them if you want one done. In fact I have 2 that I'm installing for board members right now. Its literally what the nt uses except they're using a third party "console" portion (super 8). Also much, much cheaper. Feel free to pm me if you want to have an rgb nes for a fraction of the cost of the nt.
 
jarosh said:
I mean, yes, it's fucking expensive, holy shit... but, a re-engineered Famicom/NES with TRUE RGB? Sign me the fuck up! The number one reason that's kept me from playing all of my NES carts (especially on my Plasma) is the system's truly mindbogglingly shitty composite signal, which doesn't even look good on a CRT, in my opinion.
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Design is very very ugly and not NES at all.

If it looked more like a NES it would have a lot more takers.

That's the only think NEX did right:

dc23810ae7a0d90aabd3a110.L.jpg


Being a crappy NOAC implementation


Also this:



A redesigned Famicom who accepts NES cartridges.


That aluminium design is turd, feels like mounting a timeless classic onto a toaster. Dude that designed that has bad taste I don't care if he could re-engineer The Last Guardian out of development hell he still has bad taste. And like people already said he probably mostly reverse engineered NESRGB implementation and made it his own, I think I prefer a proper NES, thank you.

EDIT: New IP is very good!
 
They've said that they got permission from Tim Worthington to manufacture their own nesrgb boards for this. Not to mention they also killed hundreds of original Famicom hardware to shove them in their ugly casing.
 
baphomet said:
They've said that they got permission from Tim Worthington to manufacture their own nesrgb boards for this. Not to mention they also killed hundreds of original Famicom hardware to shove them in their ugly casing.
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I'm not judging the intricacies of it, I've delved with reverse engineering and other people diagrams myself. I wouldn't care much if they were doing a rip off, as much as I commend the original inventors and give them merit for it. If it was a better product or cheaper I'd be there instead of the other side of the fence anyway.

The more products in the market making NES shine the better... Be it finally a NES clone/motherboard that actually improves over it or a gutted machine that's being upgraded rather than scrapped. I'd buy that Famicom/NES I've shown in a heardbeat and at a very hight price if it was professionally made with molded casing and good finish, it's just a great thing to have, I'm even tempted to pull my own based on the photos.


But this Analogue NT stuff are very questionable taste, because they don't even look like a NES. When I want a NES I want a NES, if I had unlimited money I'd purchase that and perhaps still use it (because I still lack a NES RGB console), but it's still no NES and it sure doesn't feel like having one.

It's as much of a NES as a Polystation for me... Carved aluminium and whatnot. Only difference is that it doesn't functionally suck.


But that means they wasted a very good opportunity.
 
I think you have to have a weird aesthetic nostalgia to prefer any official NES design over the Nt, and I'm not exactly crazy about it one way or another.

That system never looked good imo. The front-loader is iconic but such a major case of design over function. Bad 72-pin connectors have soured me on it so much over the years that I never want to have to deal with one again.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
I think you have to have a weird aesthetic nostalgia to prefer any official NES design over the Nt, and I'm not exactly crazy about it one way or another.

That system never looked good imo. The front-loader is iconic but such a major case of design over function. Bad 72-pin connectors have soured me on it so much over the years that I never want to have to deal with one again.
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9cbviAx.jpg
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They reek of the 90's, but I think these and AV Famicoms are the best possible look for an NES. In my collection, something like the NT would stick out like a sore thumb next to all my other consoles.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
I think you have to have a weird aesthetic nostalgia to prefer any official NES design over the Nt, and I'm not exactly crazy about it one way or another.

That system never looked good imo. The front-loader is iconic but such a major case of design over function. Bad 72-pin connectors have soured me on it so much over the years that I never want to have to deal with one again.
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I think the NES looks very good myself. Always did, although it probably always looked dated. It sure didn't look futuristic.

I'm aware of the issues with the original design and changes being made to make it better, I don't dislike the top loader NES (I see it has been mentioned already) although I think it's less "iconic". I probably functionally prefer it to a regular NES although, if someone gave me a choice, I'd prefer NES carts to be loaded at the front like with the NEX and that custom Famicom, which is different than the original mechanism it's just aesthetically similar.

I'm not against the fact that the two cartridge slots are in the top or anything like that, I'm against form factor that reminds me more of a Fiat Barchetta trunk:

showpic


Than a console.

I just don't understand ditching everything NES, from the grey/white+black combination and going for some design no one has a relation to or wants.
 
Peagles said:
My guess is it's for people who want it to blend in next to their current gen stuff.
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I've thought about it like that a while ago while writing the previous posts and came to the conclusion I don't want a PSone looking like a PS4. And yet this looks nothing like anything.

Although I'd buy the shit out a NES with the SNES design, because it was almost official.

EDIT: THIS!

IMG_1816sm.jpg
 
Tbh, as long as it doesn't have a glossy finish then I'm pretty much OK with anything else.

I move my gaming hardware around all the time and the Wii U is just a hopeless fingerprint magnet.
 
lostinblue said:
I've thought about it like that a while ago while writing the previous posts and came to the conclusion I don't want a PSone looking like a PS4.
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Neither. I just want my stuff original, that's why I'm not too fussed about the NT.

Sure I had to drill a couple holes in my NES but I still have an untouched CIB one so all is well. And you can't see anything different until you turn it on and go wow at the RGB goodness, heh.
 
What I'm wondering about the Analogue NT is what their "HDMI Adapter / Upscaler" is. They say it's "developed exclusively for use with the Analogue Nt" and they're not planning to sell it separately, but I'm wondering how it could be that tightly coupled to the console if the Nt uses standard RGB out.
 
I dont care that it doesnt look like an NES. Its damn near an all encompasing NES. It doesn't suck like a clone, and its far more aesthetically pleasing than the original NES.

Are they really using famicoms though? If they were rippin apart ugly ass NESes I wouldn't bat an eye. Good riddance I say, but actual Famicoms? Hmm....
 
BTW, if any of you guys have a minute and haven't done so already, give the new OP a read over and let me know if anything looks off (wrong info, broken links).

Ms. Tea said:
What I'm wondering about the Analogue NT is what their "HDMI Adapter / Upscaler" is. They say it's "developed exclusively for use with the Analogue Nt" and they're not planning to sell it separately, but I'm wondering how it could be that tightly coupled to the console if the Nt uses standard RGB out.
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Yeah I wish they'd clarify the tech details for that (and other aspects of the system, to be honest). I can't imagine that the system outputs something other than ordinary RGBs or RGBHV, and I'm curious what kind of adapter they're selling at that price.

televator said:
Are they really using famicoms though? If they were rippin apart ugly ass NESes I wouldn't bat an eye. Good riddance I say, but actual Famicoms? Hmm....
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Original Famicoms are even less desirable than an NES imo. RF only output that doesn't necessarily work with North American TVs, hard-wired controllers, etc. If you're gonna repurpose any revision of the system, it might as well be that one.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
BTW, if any of you guys have a minute and haven't done so already, give the new OP a read over and let me know if anything looks off (wrong info, broken links).


Yeah I wish they'd clarify the tech details for that (and other aspects of the system, to be honest). I can't imagine that the system outputs something other than ordinary RGBs or RGBHV, and I'm curious what kind of adapter they're selling at that price.


Original Famicoms are even less desirable than an NES imo. RF only output that doesn't necessarily work with North American TVs, hard-wired controllers, etc. If you're gonna repurpose any revision of the system, it might as well be that one.
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Less desireable from Analogue's perspective you mean? You have a point, but I thought theyre really using is the chips no? Judging by the shape and position of the slots it looked to me like a custom board entirely
 
baphomet said:
Yea I can install them if you want one done. In fact I have 2 that I'm installing for board members right now. Its literally what the nt uses except they're using a third party "console" portion (super 8). Also much, much cheaper. Feel free to pm me if you want to have an rgb nes for a fraction of the cost of the nt.
Click to expand...

Yes! Thanks for the offer! Will pm you.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
I think you have to have a weird aesthetic nostalgia to prefer any official NES design over the Nt, and I'm not exactly crazy about it one way or another.

That system never looked good imo. The front-loader is iconic but such a major case of design over function. Bad 72-pin connectors have soured me on it so much over the years that I never want to have to deal with one again.
Click to expand...

yeah, i'm weird with this too - NES design is poop but i grew up with it, everyone i knew had one. that analogue don't look at all like one, so it's booty for me. the top loader is more functional but also weird.

now, even having had an SNES, the aesthetic difference between that & an SFC is tremendous and even nostalgia can't fix that. if i could swap my SNES for a euro or JP shell i'd do so with a quickness.

Sixfortyfive said:
Tbh, as long as it doesn't have a glossy finish then I'm pretty much OK with anything else.

I move my gaming hardware around all the time and the Wii U is just a hopeless fingerprint magnet.
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ugh, was sad to see my launch PS3 die but at least i only have one glossy system now
 
I would like the SFC and PAL SNES more if they had that puplish gray, lavender and purple color scheme of the NA SNES. Consequently my favorite Super Nintendo hardware from an aesthetic standpoint is the NA SNES Jr., lol

I have an SFC with a partially cracked shell somewhere. I wouldn't feel bad filling it in with putty, and paint matching it to an NA SNES and using an NA SNES controller. Maybe I'll make it a summer project.
 
These are the same people who think Neo systems that resemble furniture are a good idea so I'm not sure why anyone continues to be surprised that they have no idea what good taste is. Not to mention that they have zero respect for our hobby and the preservation of hardware.
 
hey, i thought the woodgrain neo clone was nice, compared to the tupperware ones. Omega wins though since keeping the closest actual form factor is usually ideal for me.
 
sixteen-bit said:
yeah, viletim's NESRGB is the truth

I assume that's what the Nt will use, considering it's not cost effective to source PC10 or Titler PPUs
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Yeah the NESRGB is a thing of beauty!. Fit them to about 6 NES systems now, and the picture quality is outstanding.....

i86GvSxPlYmvT.JPEG


If anyone in the UK is wanting the mod done i can offer my services
 
jarosh said:
Does anyone have any info about the Retron 5 re: input lag and screen tearing?

There isn't a single NES emulator out there that DOESN'T have horrible input lag or screen tearing or a vsync implementation that causes input lag in full screen. There's not a single one - at least not a Windows one. So I'm wondering how the Retron 5 fares here...
Click to expand...

Very frustrating to see a complete lack of coverage on this. I honestly can't imagine it has much less lag than using vsync on a Windows emulator (and most will be stacking that on HDTV lag), but I'd love to see actual test results.
 
Does this look right for using a high-def Genesis 1 (connected via RGB to Sony PVM), but getting the video/audio from the 32X? Will the Genesis/32X/CD get the best picture quality? Thanks.

ibk9uRe2YyyLt9.PNG
 
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