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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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theSlacker
Member
Don't feel bad. You could play it off like your TV pulled up the mute icon when you turned the volume all the way down, some TVs do that. :3
honeymustardn
Member
I managed to break my AV Famicom's PPU when trying to install the NESRGB. Does anyone know if it's ok to use a Famicom PPU or a NES PPU instead (I'm guessing I can just pick up a broken one for cheap, rather than getting another AV Famicom)?
Break in what way? Just a pin? You can fix that pretty easily. Or you mean you fried it?
The PPUs are interchangeable.
You can just find some for parts NES off ebay. And hope the PPU still works.
baphomet
Member
I've got a handful of them here if you need one. Just shoot me a pm.
Soooo...everyone here has likely shown off their set-ups, but how is everything connected? I'm kinda drowning in cables, but I've done the best I can with the inputs:
And just in case you're wondering - there's no signal degradation that I can see from using the second switcher. As for the XRGB-Mini itself, I've been kinda limited with the godawful position that the RGB-In socket is at - but I've just ordered an 8-pin mini-din extension cable which will keep the XRGB happily tucked away lower down on my unit, and free up space for another console (likely a Wii U in the future).
And just in case you're wondering - there's no signal degradation that I can see from using the second switcher. As for the XRGB-Mini itself, I've been kinda limited with the godawful position that the RGB-In socket is at - but I've just ordered an 8-pin mini-din extension cable which will keep the XRGB happily tucked away lower down on my unit, and free up space for another console (likely a Wii U in the future).
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
My setup is a mess, and I'm constantly shuffling hardware in and out of the apartment anyway for local fighting game events. I don't have any switches and hook everything up one system at a time. My LCD monitor stand consists of a handful of Amazon.com boxes.
baphomet
Member
Yea same here. There's about 5 systems that stay hooked up. All of the rest have to get pulled out and hooked up when they get played. The ones that do stay hooked up are run through a few hama switches into my PVM.
Okay GAF, just took my first PVM plunge with a PVM-14N5U for $20 at a local PC recycling place. It lacks RBG but has S-video. How well did I do? SNES picture looks bold and crisp. Also what are the recommended settings for maximum visual fidelity for SNES running in S video on one of these puppies?
I'm worse. Just put the system I wanna play for a bit in. I don't think I could even wire them all up since I move quite a bit. Still need to hook my MD up to the upscaler...i've only used it on a PVM so far...prolly look better through the Mini.
This reminds me I need to stop by my post office and pick up the scart switches I ordered from ebay!
Also, the 8pin mini-din extension is a good idea. I wonder if there is a 8 pin mini din splitter cable. My Turbo Duo uses a Japanese 21 rgb cable and I have to switch it when I want to play......er actually I guess I could just order a euro scart and call it a day....
Right now I just switch between systems but am looking forward to organizing them a bit with the scart switch,
I've just got a Joytech switch with three cables in it (NES, Mega Drive, and a Nintendo cable which serves the SNES, N64, and Gamecube). The fourth input has a extension with a little three way SCART, and in that I've got PS1, Saturn and Dreamcast.
It's a pain to switch the Nintendo cable between the three systems, I wish I could have more inputs and a cable for each one, but it has to do for now.
So theres no reduction in picture brightness when daisy chain the scart sockets??
Not at all. I'll upload a comparison later to prove it.
sixteen-bit
Member
Gen, SNES, Sat, PS1, and NGCD are on my SCART switch.
Friend of Sonic
Member
That is a bit of a relief. I plan on daisy chaning one, or maybe even two off of the first switcher. I put together my TV stand and accompanying "technology pier" over the weekend, so I'll be excited to get some free time and hook everything up this weekend. I'm hoping I have space for all of the systems.
I'm super sad guys, I found an NEC RGB monitor (forgot the model name) at a Goodwill for 9.99. But there was no indication it was alive at all when I turned it on. That and I was on a trip in another state. No way I was fitting a broken CRT in the packed car.
So fucking close!!!
So fucking close!!!
That's not to say you can't get degradation with daisy chaining of course, so use good quality gear. I had two little 3 SCART blocks and planned to use both but one just gave a completely out of sync signal; others out there the differences are subtle but noticeable.
Heheheh...
Friend of Sonic
Member
Is anyone daisy chaining for a total use of 2-3 bandridge units successfully? (and if so, that assumes that mine will be in perfect operating orders, as Peagles says)
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I'm capping some sample videos to compare differences between video formats. Won't be done for a little while but figured I'd post a sample shot from a 480p PS2 game.
Composite:
S-video:
15khz RGB:
YPbPr:
No lossy compression in these shots, and the color space has been calibrated correctly for each of them. The first 3 were deinterlaced via the Yadif filter.
Composite:
S-video:
15khz RGB:
YPbPr:
No lossy compression in these shots, and the color space has been calibrated correctly for each of them. The first 3 were deinterlaced via the Yadif filter.
Friend of Sonic
Member
This is new
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Ninte...ideo_Game_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2ed2e80c1f
I previously bought her original cables, which seem to be of good quality. Do I need to be upgrading to the 'Pro' edition?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Ninte...ideo_Game_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2ed2e80c1f
I previously bought her original cables, which seem to be of good quality. Do I need to be upgrading to the 'Pro' edition?
theSlacker
Member
No idea, but know she has sold a few of those before, always in low numbers. What it offers over the normal I have no idea, and surprised she didn't go over that in the details.
Wait for the Ultra Pro Edition and its gold-plated contacts and diamond shielding.
You're good with what you have
Wasn't sure where else to post this. My sister gave me her old CRT and I've since hooked up all my retro systems. Is there any way to adjust the screen position? There's nothing in the menu about it. I just wish I could move the screen position over to the left about half an inch.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
Can't get my Omega to stop having sync issues through my Framemeister. I have the RGB cable that was sold through the Omega's website.
Adjusting sync level kinda helps and it's not constant. The image jumps and flickers on character select screens in fighting games mostly. Any ideas?
Adjusting sync level kinda helps and it's not constant. The image jumps and flickers on character select screens in fighting games mostly. Any ideas?
Friend of Sonic
Member
Haha, I figured so. Thanks man.
Really? She has a pretty loyal following as far as a video game cable maker goes, so I could see her popping out some limited editions to get the people excited
Maybe extra shielding? I had trouble with the first cable she sent me (sync was totally out of whack) so she made me the same again but with tons of extra shielding. Worked a charm, so maybe that cables for people like me...
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
You might be able to find a service menu code on Google, but play around with that stuff at your own risk.
lostinblue
Banned
AWESOME.
I love these comparisons.
I that doesn't make people invest in better cables I don't know what will.
EDIT: Do you by any chance have more of those?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I sent a few to IrishNinja to add to the OP. So just wait on him to open up his inbox.EDIT: Do you by any chance have more of those?
IrishNinja
Member
i got the rewtire, and it's fantastic! just gimme a bit to get it up there, this weeks kinda hectic
lostinblue
Banned
Glorious!
I have just one nitpick, which is that the game chosen kinda benefits S-video because I notice colorful colors, like pure Red, Green and Blue suffer the most on it, and the game has none in the spotlight.
But one can make it out nonetheless by pointing out how the energy bars look and other tell signs.
I don't think I ever saw composite and S-video captures as good as these.
EDIT: After I see the rewrite I might contribute too, I wrote a lengthy piece recently in regards to how to pick a good old CRT, not focusing on models, stuff like how to count TV lines, how it works and stuff like that. Problem is I did it in my native language so would have to translate it. Can't promise anything in foreseeable time though.
Great shots but we definitely need some 240p RGB to do proper justice! I'm assuming you mean you did 480i in RGB and then deinterlaced for that shot.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
To be honest, while doing all of these tests, I actually thought that S-video doesn't look half-bad most of the time, haha. I think this is particularly true of early 3D games that ran in low resolutions with no anti-aliasing. The blurring inherent to S-video and composite can be arguably beneficial to users who absolutely hate jaggies. I sent 5 game samples from 5 different systems (with more to come) that I chose to try and cover as many bases at once: 240p 2D game, 240p 3D game, 480i 3D game, 480p 3D game, 480p 2D game. I'm going to add more 2D samples once my NES and cable comes back in the mail (currently being modded).
I also adjusted the color space and range so that each signal was optimized as much as possible. Even then, the Dreamcast footage has some obvious black crush in anything other than VGA.
If there's one thing I'm unhappy with the captures, it's that there's no "right" way to handle 480i with what I've got. I spent a lot of time searching for a partial deinterlace filter that actually produces what you'd get on a CRT (two alternating fields updating 60 times per second), but I couldn't find any. So I went with a full deinterlace filter instead (Yadif) because that's closer to what an HDTV or an upscaler would do to the picture anyway. Leaving the interlaced capture in an unaltered state (both fields updating simultaneously 30 times per second) isn't representative of what you'd usually get on either a CRT or a flatscreen, so Yadif was the best compromise I could use.
I might just cap screens of the 240p test suite via different cables to get a more "pure" comparison while I'm at it.
lostinblue
Banned
S-video is not bad at all, seeing RGB being so difficult on some consoles, like the N64 settling for S-Video is perfectly fine if they do support it, RGB is just that tad bit better.
I notice the difference mostly side by side, whereas for composite or RF I don't anything to compare it too, it looks like shit.
S-video has the whole definition going for it (well, most of it) it just doesn't have separate color channels.
And I believe on the PAL lands on the consoles that support it, it uses the NTSC color bandwidth which is lower than the PAL one. But I might be wrong on that one, or be a case by case basis.
I didn't know DC crushed colors in RGB; thought they were pretty similar taking the 480p issue aside.
I wonder if it can be compensated and no one ever did, then. Because Mega Drive RGB cables if not compensated will be too bright, and some other consoles too dim.
I also remember Dreamcast is kinda strange when it comes to VGA voltage, perhaps it is strange also for RGB which could explain dimmer image.
... I think.
Hmmm, how do the interlaced results appear?
Black bars on the lines that were not refreshed?
And can it capture a sequence of two?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I captured Shenmue for the Dreamcast footage but didn't bother with 15khz RGB for that one; I just did composite, s-video, and VGA. The Kuro's 15khz mode produces some weird results on that game (it seems to confuse 240p and 480i), so I chose not to use it in that example. I want to try the 240p suite for another test.
480i alternates between each field at 60hz. The captures record both fields simultaneously at 30hz.
I want to find a filter that modifies the capture so that it represents what actual 480i looks like (double the framerate, then add a 1-frame delay to one of the fields) but came up blank when I was searching for one.
The left GIF is how 480i is supposed to look. The right GIF is how capture hardware tends to handle it.
480i alternates between each field at 60hz. The captures record both fields simultaneously at 30hz.
I want to find a filter that modifies the capture so that it represents what actual 480i looks like (double the framerate, then add a 1-frame delay to one of the fields) but came up blank when I was searching for one.
lostinblue
Banned
I see.
Well, that means it's halving the field rate, which means it's delaying it, each "full frame" should be taking 33.3 ms instead of a new field appearing every 16.7 ms.
I can't imagine it going well on game that run at 60 fps with 30 odd fields and 30 even fields, where it's 60 incomplete frames per second rather than 30 complete ones.
On static images though, shouldn't make a world of difference.
But it's not ideal.
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
OK not sure if this is the right place to ask but here we go.
So I recently got a capture device and I have to ask when it comes to picture quality is it better just playing a game off the original console? For example I have the Component Cable for the Gamecube (damm was that thing expensive) and that's how I normally capture gameplay or play my games on my Gamecube but I'm wondering would the picture quality improve if I were to play my Gamecube games on a Wii with a component cable instead?
Of course Component Cables are lock into 480p IIRC so I have to ask are upscalers really worth it? I spent a good amount on the Component Cable for the Gamecube so I suppose an upscaler is not out of the question for me.
So I recently got a capture device and I have to ask when it comes to picture quality is it better just playing a game off the original console? For example I have the Component Cable for the Gamecube (damm was that thing expensive) and that's how I normally capture gameplay or play my games on my Gamecube but I'm wondering would the picture quality improve if I were to play my Gamecube games on a Wii with a component cable instead?
Of course Component Cables are lock into 480p IIRC so I have to ask are upscalers really worth it? I spent a good amount on the Component Cable for the Gamecube so I suppose an upscaler is not out of the question for me.
Laevateinn
Member
So, I stupidly bought a Bandridge SCART switch to go with my new X-RGB 3. It did not work so I'm assuming it is not directly compatible with JP21 cables. Does anyone have any experience with whether or not it's practical to mod it? I'm decent enough at soldering. Can anyone point me to a switch that's designed for Japanese signals?
Honestly, with the gamecube, upscalers are a luxury rather than a necessity. HDTV's are usually good at upscaling 480p, and while the 480i games of the gamecube will look mediocre, they're a minority.
Gamecube Component also generally looks a little better than Wii Component, so you're ok there. If Gamecube is the only thing you're playing, just stick with component cables and you're set. With anything prior to the Dreamcast though? Upscalers will make them beautiful.
Is it the automatic version of the Bandridge? Because the manual (ie. togglebuttons) version should not have problems, apart from the red LED not lighting up. If it's the manual you have, the problem is elsewhere.
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
Yeah most of my nostalgia is in the Fifth and Sixth Generation of consoles so I don't see myself messing with third and fourth generation hardware at all and I do want to rebuy a Dreamcast in the future with the VGA adapter but I don't think my TV has a VGA port so I guess I'm going to have to buy a converter for that.
So is there a VGA converter (to component or HDMI) that anyone would recommend? Or any of them will do just fine?
IrishNinja
Member
per latest captures provided, OP entirely rewritten (and quite masterfully) by Sixfortyfive, thanks again man! way more thorough than i could've been.
Laevateinn
Member
It's the manual. Thanks, I'll look into getting another cable then.
sixteen-bit
Member
new OP is gdlk
nice work sixfortyfive!
nice work sixfortyfive!
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